Delete a Propane Solenoid Safety Valve?

[211Racing]

Working and working to get a 2002 Ford Tioga 26' back on the road. Now runs and drives. Working on propane. Needed for fridge, range and water heater. Propane tank is half full (tested with 3 different gauges mounted on tank). Replaced the propane regulator today. Still no propane flowing to any appliance. Cleaned all electrical connections. Didn't help. Thinking the Solenoid Safety Valve is closed/non-functional. It mounts just downstream from the Regulator. I'm reading that they are no longer required or installed. Is it just a matter of deleting this valve and capping off the wires? They run $400-$500 to replace with original. Alternatively, I'm interested in a generic replacement. Your opinions, please.

Original Solenoid Safety Valve is Parker NM22-0511.

[dodge_guy]

My MH is a 2012 Forest River Georgetown. The system has a 12V house battery controlled system with a normally off solenoid, meaning with no power the solenoid is off (no gas flow). The previous owner wired in a switch to shut off the solenoid from the control center, otherwise it would only ever shutoff when the detector sniffs propane/CO.
I’m not sure if/when they stopped using it but it is a great system to have.

[eric1514]

If I remove the shutoff solenoid from my system it will mean that I have to crawl under the RV to turn the shut off valve on or off every time I want to use the system or store the RV. The tank is not located behind a hatch where the knob is easily accessible. I like having the solenoid and I like having it controlled by the detector and will repair it when it goes south.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

When I operated LPG vehicles to try and thwart evil Mexican gasoline in the 80's the use of a shutoff (vacuum or electric) switch valve was mandatory. I lost track 30 years ago about price and obsolescence but the electric switches would last for many years. They were 12 volt operated and required about one half amp. I used a 24 volt model in my bus with a wind up 12 hour Intermatic Timer. This was in the tropics. Cruising sailboats I worked on had similar smaller valves but the switches heated up to "Ow! ****!" hot.

[RLS7201]

dougrainer wrote:

RLS7201 wrote:
The OEMs stopped installing CCI 7719 when CCI went out of business in 2008 (14 years ago). Not because of customer complaints.
I reversed engineered my CCI 7719 when it failed and made the necessary repair. The CCI solenoid coil is NOT 12 volt. It is a 9 volt coil. The valve is snapped open with 12 volts and maintained with 2 volts.
As already noted, if you have a propane leak while away from your RV, the system will shut off the propane, which would keep the water heater or refrigerator flame from starting a fire in case of a leak. I consider that added safety.


Richard

They went out of business in 2008?. BUT, OEM's (the majority that did install) stopped in the late 90's. Customer complaints? I have 43 years as a RV tech(mainly motorized) 1979 to current. WHO would be better to state customer complaints? YOU or ME? I had to listen to people upset that their LP system shut down and caused problems with refers and all LP appliances. AS I stated, SHOW evidence of the supposed added safety with such a system. YES, such a system would be a nice feature, but due to the system unreliability, they were discontinued. Doug

Fleetwood and Monaco continued to use the CCI detector until CCI went out of business. I consider them OEMs. I reversed engineered the detector when CCI went out of business and went into the repair business (ccirepairs@gmail.com). The major reliability issue was AGE, which all detectors do. So how does one condemn a product that ages out just like it's competitors? It was a very well engineered product that only consumed 0.168 milliamps, when turned on. The sniffer failed, just like other detector products.
Oh, BTW there is a new owner of CCIrepairs, just in case you need one repaired.

Richard

[enblethen]

Dodge guy indicates he has a Roadmaster. He could have a center line tank that has a remote shut-off which includes the solenoid as there is no direct access to shut the tank off.

[dougrainer]

dodge guy wrote:
Funny! I have a 2012 with a CO/LP detector with the valve, and I replaced it in 2019 with a new one. It is factory wired. Can’t imagine manuf would stop installing a necessary safety item!

Safe-T-Alert 70742PRBRK

What Brand RV do you have? I did not state they were not used, but your RV is 10 years old. Do you know if your OEM RV maker STILL installs a solenoid controlled system? All I can state is, I work on almost all makes of motorhomes and I have not seen a solenoid controlled LP system OEM on Rv's in the Past 20 years. That means RV's newer than 2002. I should also have stated on some of the Systems, they had 2- 12 volt positive wires powering the detector. Chassis and Coach. Some RV makers connected the detector straight to the batteries and some connected thru the Battery disconnect system.
1. having connected straight to a dual battery, and storing, you would drain the chassis battery within a few weeks and have a dead chassis battery. It takes longer to drain the coach but if left for more than a month all the batteries would be dead
2. You have a coach battery disconnect, but NO chassis battery disconnect. The Chassis would be dead in a few weeks if system left on
3. Connected to a disconnect(coach), refer ON LP, RVer forgets about LP system solenoid and leaves the RV for days and as he leaves the RV turns the disconnect OFF, killing the LP system and the refer turns off and items then thaw and smell. HAD this happen a few times years ago with irate customers. Doug

[dodge_guy]

Funny! I have a 2012 with a CO/LP detector with the valve, and I replaced it in 2019 with a new one. It is factory wired. Can’t imagine manuf would stop installing a necessary safety item!

Safe-T-Alert 70742PRBRK

[dougrainer]

RLS7201 wrote:
The OEMs stopped installing CCI 7719 when CCI went out of business in 2008 (14 years ago). Not because of customer complaints.
I reversed engineered my CCI 7719 when it failed and made the necessary repair. The CCI solenoid coil is NOT 12 volt. It is a 9 volt coil. The valve is snapped open with 12 volts and maintained with 2 volts.
As already noted, if you have a propane leak while away from your RV, the system will shut off the propane, which would keep the water heater or refrigerator flame from starting a fire in case of a leak. I consider that added safety.


Richard

They went out of business in 2008?. BUT, OEM's (the majority that did install) stopped in the late 90's. Customer complaints? I have 43 years as a RV tech(mainly motorized) 1979 to current. WHO would be better to state customer complaints? YOU or ME? I had to listen to people upset that their LP system shut down and caused problems with refers and all LP appliances. AS I stated, SHOW evidence of the supposed added safety with such a system. YES, such a system would be a nice feature, but due to the system unreliability, they were discontinued. Doug

[RLS7201]

The OEMs stopped installing CCI 7719 when CCI went out of business in 2008 (14 years ago). Not because of customer complaints.
I reversed engineered my CCI 7719 when it failed and made the necessary repair. The CCI solenoid coil is NOT 12 volt. It is a 9 volt coil. The valve is snapped open with 12 volts and maintained with 2 volts.
As already noted, if you have a propane leak while away from your RV, the system will shut off the propane, which would keep the water heater or refrigerator flame from starting a fire in case of a leak. I consider that added safety.


Richard

[enblethen]

Doug: Good explanation!

[dougrainer]

LP detector with electric solenoids were common 30 years ago and fell out of favor towards the end of the 90's. The reason besides unreliability was, that ANYTHING that would trip a LP detector(hair sprays/fumes/ANYTHING) would then cause the LP system to shut down. Sometimes it took hours or days for the LP detector to "clear". LOTS of MAD rver's. So, the OEM's stopped installing Solenoid controlled detectors. That is why it is very difficult to find replacement inside 12 volt solenoid controlled detectors. They have not made them in 20 years. When you have one, you just bypass(remove the tank solenoid and REPLACE the inside detector. If you have this system, the LP detector has passed its "good/replace by" operation over 20 years ago and needs replaced anyway. Now, with MILLIONS of RV's(remember only motorized had this system), can someone point to any article that shows the Deadly hazard of NOT having a LP detector with Solenoid? Doug

PS, unlike 20 to 30 years ago, about the ONLY LP appliance that has a pilot light was the RANGE burners that indeed if the pilot went out you have leaking LP in the RV. The OVEN has a Thermocoupler that shuts down the LP when the Pilot goes out. Starting about 20 years ago, they removed the Pilot for the range burners and you have piezo ignition and manual light range burners AND you must push and turn for the Range burners to come on.

[Gdetrailer]

Chum lee wrote:

Nowhere did I tell you, or anyone else what they should or should not add/remove from/to their propane system. As far as I'm concerned, it's your vehicle (home) and your choice.

You DID imply that it should not be removed by telling "stories" of how it "could" be more dangerous. Therefore you DID "TELL" the OP to not remove the solenoid.

Chum lee wrote:

Clearly, you haven't thought about this at all. I'm not talking about fuel injectors spraying atomized fuel on/into a hot engine. I'm talking about a running fuel pump with ruptured fuel lines pumping liquid fuel at 50 psi into a crash zone. Do you get the difference?

Clearly, YOU do not "understand" what happens to gasoline when it "sprays" out of a "ruptured line" and hits hot items like hot engine and exhaust systems, especially the cat converter which operates in the thousands of degrees F zone. Under the hood fires caused by ruptured fuel do indeed happen.. Had a close call myself with a brand new just delivered 90's "K" car which ended up in a fire ball.. A faulty fuel line under the hood..

Chum lee wrote:

In a residential application, (as you have stated at .5psi) dumping gaseous fuel (propane/natural gas/whatever) into a large area is going to take a lot of time to reach the stochiometric explosive point. In the confines of an RV, not so. Do you GET that? I don't think so.

Takes VOLUME, lots of VOLUME to reach stochiometric explosive point. It is for that reason, there IS an "odorant" that must be added to propane and natural gas called Ethyl Mercaptan. Ethyl Mercaptan is the extremely pungent and highly offensive potent odor that could darn near wake the sleeping dead.

From website above..

"The odds are good that you haven’t heard of Ethyl Mercaptan. But it’s just as likely that you’ve smelled its unpleasant presence before. Ethyl Mercaptan is what makes propane gas smell. It’s an additive that is combined with liquified petroleum gas, or LPG, to alert users of a leak.

What does propane gas smell like?

Depending on the makeup of your olfactory senses, Ethyl Mercaptan most often is reported to smell like rotten eggs or sometimes rotten cabbage. Some also say it has a strong garlic, or skunk-like, smell.

Although the smell of Ethyl Mercaptan might be among the worst in the world, it has proven to be an effective tool in alerting propane users to a problem –and giving them the time they need to ensure their safety."

Chum lee wrote:

Look Mr. Gdetrailer, I have no interest in getting into a pissing match with you. One question for you though. Where did you get your engineering degrees? It's a rhetorical question. (I really don't care and don't bother answering, . . . I already know the answer) This is why I rarely post here anymore.

Chum lee

If you had an "engineering degree" then you would understand how this (propane) works without using scare tactics like "what if the flame gets blown out by the wind".. That is what what your nose, Ethyl Mercaptan and propane detector is for. Having some automatic valve being shut by the propane detector really isn't needed and very few RVs have that system.

And by the way, gas detectors like the LP gas ones use in RVs can wear out, should be replaced periodically and they tend to falsely trip on most any "explosive" gas, hairsprays, deodorants in spray form, even human or animal flatulence.. They don't just detect LP gas, they detect any explosive gas.

And for the record, I never told anyone to chuck the LP gas detector, but the automatic gas valve is optional..

[Chum_lee]

Gdetrailer wrote:

Chum lee wrote:
The hydrocarbon detector (propane) and the propane safety shutoff solenoid are designed to operate together to minimize the possibility of propane leaks in the interior of your motor home. If you disable the system, you no longer have that safety feature. If, for some reason, the flame blows out on your range top, propane gas will now begin to fill your motor home. If someone (by accident) jars one of the range burner valves, opening it without lighting the burner, the same thing happens. Now, it's just a matter of time until the propane reaches stoichiometry, finds an ignition source, and, . . . . . . . . Bye!

In similar fashion, many fuel injected cars have an inertially activated fuel pump shutoff valve that cuts power to the fuel pump relay after an accident. (even if the engine remains running) After a serious accident, with fuel lines breached, pouring fuel on a high potential fire hazard is generally NOT a good idea.

When you are racing and have a serious accident, there's always a track safety crew to come and quickly extinquish any fire(s). In your motor home, . . . not so.

Chum lee

Your concern is duly noted..

However, in reality, the amount of RVs factory equipped with solenoids controlled by LP detector are very few compared to the quantity of RVs without.

Highly doubt there is more RV fires and explosions that happen with RVs without that system.

It is a great idea but in reality not necessary, not required by law and over the yrs different manufacturers have come and gone and when it comes time to repair the systems parts often will not interchange and obsolete systems, the parts are made of "unobtainium" causing a major retrofit.

Millions, perhaps billions of homes are serviced by propane or natural gas also, not all that many (if any at all) make the news as blowing up because someone accidentally "bumped" on of the ranged valves or wind blew out the flame.

Comparing auto fuel systems isn't all that good of a comparison either. Fuel injection systems operate at very high pressure (40PSI-50PSI) and when a vehicle is involved in an accident the concern is all that fuel under high pressure spraying on to very hot engine and exhaust parts creating an intense fire ball..

The propane at your appliances is maybe 1/2 PSI..

Nowhere did I tell you, or anyone else what they should or should not add/remove from/to their propane system. As far as I'm concerned, it's your vehicle (home) and your choice.

Clearly, you haven't thought about this at all. I'm not talking about fuel injectors spraying atomized fuel on/into a hot engine. I'm talking about a running fuel pump with ruptured fuel lines pumping liquid fuel at 50 psi into a crash zone. Do you get the difference?

In a residential application, (as you have stated at .5psi) dumping gaseous fuel (propane/natural gas/whatever) into a large area is going to take a lot of time to reach the stochiometric explosive point. In the confines of an RV, not so. Do you GET that? I don't think so.

Look Mr. Gdetrailer, I have no interest in getting into a pissing match with you. One question for you though. Where did you get your engineering degrees? It's a rhetorical question. (I really don't care and don't bother answering, . . . I already know the answer) This is why I rarely post here anymore.

Chum lee

[Gdetrailer]

Chum lee wrote:
The hydrocarbon detector (propane) and the propane safety shutoff solenoid are designed to operate together to minimize the possibility of propane leaks in the interior of your motor home. If you disable the system, you no longer have that safety feature. If, for some reason, the flame blows out on your range top, propane gas will now begin to fill your motor home. If someone (by accident) jars one of the range burner valves, opening it without lighting the burner, the same thing happens. Now, it's just a matter of time until the propane reaches stoichiometry, finds an ignition source, and, . . . . . . . . Bye!

In similar fashion, many fuel injected cars have an inertially activated fuel pump shutoff valve that cuts power to the fuel pump relay after an accident. (even if the engine remains running) After a serious accident, with fuel lines breached, pouring fuel on a high potential fire hazard is generally NOT a good idea.

When you are racing and have a serious accident, there's always a track safety crew to come and quickly extinquish any fire(s). In your motor home, . . . not so.

Chum lee

Your concern is duly noted..

However, in reality, the amount of RVs factory equipped with solenoids controlled by LP detector are very few compared to the quantity of RVs without.

Highly doubt there is more RV fires and explosions that happen with RVs without that system.

It is a great idea but in reality not necessary, not required by law and over the yrs different manufacturers have come and gone and when it comes time to repair the systems parts often will not interchange and obsolete systems, the parts are made of "unobtainium" causing a major retrofit.

Millions, perhaps billions of homes are serviced by propane or natural gas also, not all that many (if any at all) make the news as blowing up because someone accidentally "bumped" on of the ranged valves or wind blew out the flame.

Comparing auto fuel systems isn't all that good of a comparison either. Fuel injection systems operate at very high pressure (40PSI-50PSI) and when a vehicle is involved in an accident the concern is all that fuel under high pressure spraying on to very hot engine and exhaust parts creating an intense fire ball..

The propane at your appliances is maybe 1/2 PSI..