The Official unofficial CPE 2000i Generator Thread

[pritch272]

8/1/2010 edit: Thread renamed at the suggestion of the Professor.
Renamed from: Champion Inverter and Remote Gens Promo on CPE's web site)

3/22/2011 edit: Thread renamed ...
Renamed from: Official CPE 2000 Watt Inverter Generator Thread

3/23/2011 edit: Thread renamed at the suggestion of the Professor.
Renamed from: (Un)Official CPE 2000 Watt Inverter Generator Thread

Inverter Available August 2010



Remote Available July 2010

[professor95]

canadiankid wrote:

curt12914 wrote:

I just don't think it would be a good marketing tool for CPE to publish the results of any testing they may have done...

If they are close to the other two at half the price then why not? Look how the car companies go after each other and compete.

There are two good points here. Unfortunately, the way advertising research is conducted we have developed a distrust of individual company claims.

As an example, when I watch the TV commercials for GEICO, Allstate, State Farm, Progressive, E-Assurance and Elephant I do not understand how I can save on an average $200 to $400 by switching from any one of the listed companies to another. I mean, if I believe their claims I should be getting paid by the insurance companies to carry a policy with them. :B

So, if CPE did a "commercial" (which they do not do commercials to start with)that showed their product better than Y or H - who would believe them?

If a comparison test is done, it will have to be done by a "trusted" consumer or consumer reporting agency. This will require at the least someone with a Honda 2000 or Yamaha 2000 and the needed test equipment and understanding of how to standardize each test so it is statistically accurate.

If I ever get my hands on a CPE 2000 I could do side-by-side test with my Kipor 2000. I tested the Kipor against the Honda about two years ago and found them "equal" in most all respects. The Honda I used to test with the Kipor is NLA (owner moved away).

I did not plan on buying the CPE2000, but it is beginning to raise my curiosity more than it originally did. If I decided to bring one home, it would not be the first time I changed my mind even if I really did not need it. Ghee Wiz, I'm just an young-old retired Professor with a self proclaimed mission to own at least one of every tool made - and generators are tools, aren't they? Anyway, Nancy absolutely has to be the most tolerant woman in the world when it comes to my tool purchases and collection. She never fusses at my aquisitions, she only asks "Where are you going to put it?" I think she is afraid that as I run out of room in my workshop and the barn that I will begin to take over the living room, dining room, etc. with my "junque".

Well, as you can see, I have plenty of room left (somewhere)!:W

[pritch272]

professor95 wrote:

pritch272 wrote:


I specifically asked about the quality of the sine wave, CPR's reply:

I am assuming you mean CPE and not CPR?

Yes, I've corrected.

[canadiankid]

curt12914 wrote:

I just don't think it would be a good marketing tool for CPE to publish the results of any testing they may have done...

If they are close to the other two at half the price then why not? Look how the car companies go after each other and compete.

[curt12914]

canadiankid wrote:

pritch272 wrote:

"Our inverter does not have a stepped voltage or “modified” sine wave. Our inverter produces a pure sine wave with total harmonic distortion levels less than 3%. This is comparable to the Honda and Yamaha units."

Like I said earlier a test of the top inverters vs the Champion would be nice. If Champion really wanted to show off their 2000 inverter they should do the test and show the results.

I'm sure they (CPE) know the answers already, but publishing them would do them little good.
What do they (CPE) say?
We are just as good as H&Y? - Some would say so what!
We are better than H&Y? - Everyone would have a field day with that!

I just don't think it would be a good marketing tool for CPE to publish the results of any testing they may have done...

[canadiankid]

pritch272 wrote:

"Our inverter does not have a stepped voltage or “modified” sine wave. Our inverter produces a pure sine wave with total harmonic distortion levels less than 3%. This is comparable to the Honda and Yamaha units."

Like I said earlier a test of the top inverters vs the Champion would be nice. If Champion really wanted to show off their 2000 inverter they should do the test and show the results.

[professor95]

OK Guys...... this is the "unofficial" skinny scoop on the availability of the new CPE inverter generators in the lower 48.

The USA units are supposedly in CPE's California warehouse and are ready for shipment to Sam's Club. We just "might" begin to see availability by next week. Cool! :C

[professor95]

pritch272 wrote:


I specifically asked about the quality of the sine wave, CPR's reply:

I am assuming you mean CPE and not CPR?

[pritch272]

jas67 wrote:
It would be interesting to see the output of these (and the Hondas and Yamahas) on a scope?

If you look at the power inverter market, there huge difference in price and quality of power produced.

Any conventional generator is going to put out a sine wave, but inverters are another store. All cheap inverters are square wave (not to common any more) or modified-sine (most cheap ones). Pure sign inverters usually cost 2-5X the price of modified sign unit.

I would be willing to bet that the are probably some differences in power quality.

I had some modified sign inverters for power backup at my house, but I sold them because they were hard on motors. Fans sounded bad running on them (loud 60hz hum), and the motors in general ran a lot warmer on them. I didn't want to have to replace my well pump (again), or cause the premature death of a fridge or freezer.

If the CPE inverter is modified-sine output, then it might shorten the life of AC compressors used with them.

Just a thought...

I specifically asked about the quality of the sine wave, CPE's reply:

"Our inverter does not have a stepped voltage or “modified” sine wave. Our inverter produces a pure sine wave with total harmonic distortion levels less than 3%. This is comparable to the Honda and Yamaha units."

[Skibane]

professor95 wrote:
Why are we going to have increased fuel consumption? Is it "stuff" that supposedly reduces emissions - or what? All of this is simply CRAZY. I have never understood why some EPA and CARB rulings were ever implemented. For example, ethanol. Less energy per gallon, requires more fuel for equal power. So, more overall emissions per mile. Then again the ratio of energy used to produce ethanol to energy delivered by finished product.

At the risk of veering even further off-topic...

Mandating the use of ethanol in gasoline wasn't done to reduce air pollution, improve fuel economy or wean us off foreign oil - it was done to satisfy the corn lobby.

[Wayne_Dohnal]

The Honda ex350, no longer in production, is also an MSW inverter generator. Its claim-to-fame is that it's lightweight and quieter than the eu-series generators. I've had to walk right up to them to tell if they're running or not.

[MrWizard]

My exhaust engineering knowledge is limited, but look what happen to cars when cleaner air was mandated, the use of air pumps and cat converters required that engines be run richer not leaner so the unburned Soft hydrocarbons could be consumed in the exhaust system, milage only increased after down sizing and engine changes such as four valves per cylinder and variable timing of overhead cams, lean engines run stronger & hotter and produce more CO and less Co2 which plants can consume, CO is not environmental friendly Co2 and water is

Like you said real world use and testing will give us the numbers, after the initial charging surge drops the gas usage of all generators gets lower for the remaining runtime, after the surge Inverter genies are running at near low econ idle and all will consume less fuel than the rated 50% load listing

[professor95]

MrWizard wrote:


the honda series is lucky, the engine is not required to meet the new air quality restrictions to reduce emissions,


watch for all mfg new lines using new designs to have increased fuel consumption,

George,

Do you have any additional info on the "Honda" thing? I know NEW companies less that 5 years old must post a 5 million dollar EPA bond while OLD companies like B&S, Honda and Yamaha are exempt. Does this have anything to do with that?


Why are we going to have increased fuel consumption? Is it "stuff" that supposedly reduces emissions - or what? All of this is simply CRAZY. I have never understood why some EPA and CARB rulings were ever implemented. For example, ethanol. Less energy per gallon, requires more fuel for equal power. So, more overall emissions per mile. Then again the ratio of energy used to produce ethanol to energy delivered by finished product.

Not trying to start an ethanol debate, only an example of what I consider stupidity on the part of EPA.

Did you know EPA and CARB have rules ready to go into effect that will prevent you or I from repairing a small engine? Either the engine will be designed to destruct on dis-assembly by bolts that will tear out of the block or you must have a LICENSE to work on one and purchase parts and attach an missions certification label upon completion and forward info to EPA.

So, what is the deal on INCREASED fuel usage (and thus emissions) with newer designs? Inquiring minds want to know more? :@

[MrWizard]

the honda series is lucky, the engine is not required to meet the new air quality restrictions to reduce emissions,
New products coming out have to meet stricter standards , and more states are adopting Calif standards, Cpe has opted to make CARB compliment models and Canadian models rather than two models for the states, watch for all mfg new lines using new designs to have increased fuel consumption, and the Canadian version changes are most notably electrical wiring differences not engine

[professor95]

jas67 wrote:


If the CPE inverter is modified-sine output, then it might shorten the life of AC compressors used with them.

Just a thought...

I too am still waiting and wondering. We can "speculate" all we want, but the proof is going to be the actual detailed testing by someone using accepted standards with the knowledge to do so.

Knee jerk reactions or casual observations are not sufficient for me. It is sort of like telling me a steak is "tender" - I've got to eat the steak to determine that for myself.

I know of only one inverter generator that used "modified sine wave" output - it was a 1,000 watt model sold under the AllPower name and made by Kipor. I don't know if it is still being sold or not, but I have not encountered any models recently that were built that way. But, as said, we need a scope (give me a picture!) to determine for ourselves. Of course, Battery powered DC to AC inverters are still heavy on the MSW design.

The manuals for these generators are often written by "contractors" that are not necessarily the people that service or make the generators. The specs given in a manual are, IMHO, often somewhat incompatible and questionable. Fuel consumption and actual running vs. rated wattage are two that I often question. Sound or db ratings are #3. I just can't put much trust into the "on paper" advertising type figures.

Wayne spoke of the differences in using watts or Volt-Amps as the rating for inverters but I got the impression he assumed everyone knew what he was talking about. I'm not so sure we can make that assumption.

Watts or wattage is the actual measurement of power Mr. Ohm derived back in electrical history. We take the voltage provided and multiply it by the amperage that is produced in the power supply circuit and come up with watts.

Volt-amps on the other hand is not the "real" power like watts. It is often referred to as the "apparent power" - or more typically what the power looks like to a device consuming the power.

To avoid a lot of confusion and save pages of explaining in cyberspace, I will cut to the bottom line and simply say that since a volt-amp rating of 1,000 compared to an actually wattage rating of 1,000 would shake out to be something like the VA rating equal to ONLY 600 actual watts. Since the power factor is typically .6 to .7 in most inverter units, to convert VA to watts we must multiply the VA by the power factor. If the PF is not known - use .6 as the PF.

Here again is a method of playing with numbers. If an inverter generator is advertised as being 2,000 VA (rather than watts) does the "public" or common non-electrically affluent buyer really understand? Probably not, so he (or she) assumes apples are indeed apples and 2,000 = 2,000. Too bad, because in this case 2,000VA probably equals 1,200 to 1,400 watts.

Of course, "tricks" like rating in peak or surge watts have been around for years in the synchronous generator market, making buyers believe they are getting MORE than what the device can actually produce for a sustained period of time. Since a peak watt is 1.4 times greater than a RMS watt, and actually sustained wattage is something like 20% to 30% below the RMS wattage (depending on temperature), we can come up with a whopping big number for advertising. Let's see - a 3,500 RMS watt generator turns out to be good for 2,800 sustained watts. But, we give it a 4,400 watt PEAK rating. Hummm...... big difference between 2,800 and 4,400 on the outside of box in big letters. Which one do YOU think the unsuspecting buyer would purchase for the same or similar price?

It is all a game - an advertising game intended to confuse the buyer. Standards do not seem to exist from one brand to another concerning time, heat, power factor, peak, surge, watts, V-A, etc.

This leaves it up to the buyer to know and understand what the numbers mean and how to interpret them into something that can maybe be compared - provided the inflated numbers are correctly inflated to begin with. :h

I am reminded of my son bringing home a pair of 5"x7" car speakers he bought from a flea-market vendor some years back. The box advertised them as 100 watt speakers in BIG letters and numbers. On the back of each speaker there was an extremely large black plastic piece that made it appear that the speaker magnet was extremely large and perhaps the plastic piece was there to insulate the magnet and dissipate heat with the large plastic heat-sink like fins on the outside perimeter. My son was excited because he had only paid something like $20. "Gosh, Dad, these would have cost me over $100 each at the audio shop!" (Their light weight made me suspect from the get-go.)

He spent most of one afternoon installing the speakers in his truck. When it came time to test them, he promptly burned up the voice coils in both speakers. When I examined the speakers more closely, the large black plastic piece on the back was a facade covering up a magnet about the size of a quarter. It was designed to make it appear the magnet was much, much larger.

I retrieved the box from the trash and read the fine print. The 100 watt power rating was a peak-to-peak rating for a PAIR of speakers (not each) based on something like a 50 ms peak power duration. A quick in-head calculation determined he had bought a set of speakers that might have an actual maximum power rating of 10 watts RMS each. 10 watts RMS is equal to 14 watts peak. Peak to peak would be 28 watts and a pair would be 56 watts. The 50 milli-second rating was based on the time it would take for the heat of the supplied current to melt the small voice coil wires. An unrealistic rating to begin with.

He got screwed out of his $20 and an afternoon of labor. But, he learned a valuable lesson about "What's on the Box" and "What to Believe concerning advertising numbers."

Yep, side-by-side testing with a major inverter brand like the Honda would indeed not only be interesting but extremely valuable to a discerning buyer.

[Wayne_Dohnal]

I'm not aware of any current-production portable inverter generator that isn't sine wave. I think that any new offering would be DOA if its output was MSW. Thanks to the cheaper electronics, TSW inverter prices have dropped dramatically the last few years.