Will "Smart Vehicles" and their marketing cause more crashes

[rhagfo]

I will start this post with quotes from the 2017 F150 post.

spoon059 wrote:

rhagfo wrote:
We have already seen deaths due to people not turning off their engines when parking in the garage!

I think that has more to due with driver error/stupidity than an auto feature.

Its kinda like the "Runaway Toyota's" from a couple years back. Turns out that it was DRIVER ERROR. Drivers weren't properly securing floormats, which got underneath the accelerator and caused the accelerator to get stuck. Rather than put cars in neutral, they continued trying (unsuccessfully) to mash on the brakes. Didn't work.

mich800 wrote:

rhagfo wrote:



Yes, I do understand the concept and reason, I see a wrongful lawsuit in some car makers future because of this feature.
We have already seen deaths due to people not turning off their engines when parking in the garage!

Death from stop/start. Are you sure you are not confusing push button start. I have not heard of one death blamed on the stop/start function.

First of all let me say I am not anti technology, just one that asks "What If"!
I installed the Factory Curse Control on my 1968 Mustang GTCS in 1969 to control the lead in my right foot. Great option saved me far more than the $75 for the factory kit.
That said much of the marketing around much of the new technology seems to encourage bad driving habits! While not all marketing demonstrates these devices poorly, many do with drivers doing everything BUT driving while behind the wheel!

Used correctly most if not all will add to road safety, BUT for those that think these will allow them to focus their attention on things other than driving just scares me to death.
I travel a lot for my work, and rent many new cars with these features, some great some not so great.
One that I liked but was also annoying was a parking assistance that started beeping as you got closer to objects, well at the house we stay at here in Ireland while visiting the Granddaughter there is a tight gate and arch to the parking area. So every time through the beeper would go off, glad the car this time didn't have it!!

[Hannibal]

I like the idea of cruise control and especially adaptive cruise control. Imagine the reduction in rear end collisions if all cars had automatic braking while the driver is texting. Lane change assist could greatly reduce interstate accidents too while drivers check FB. I'm far from ready for driverless cars though. As reliable as microprocessor control is now, it's still far from perfect.

[2oldman]

BenK wrote:
Many of the young bucks refused to take our free training classes and decided best to take unemployment...

Yep.

[Searching_Ut]

I think it's inevitable that cars will become automated, as well as virtually everything else. At some point there is now reason to think we'll need people to do anything as computers will be more intelligent, faster, and far more error free. That said, I think the timeline for that is still farther away than many in tech seem to realize. For the next 20 years or so the systems will probably be more trouble than they are worth.

[4x4ord]

rjstractor wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
Don't sell the stupidity of the general population short.

True statement. The transition to autonomous cars might be pretty messy and if not handled well it won't happen at all. As cars allow drivers to pay less attention at the wheel, they will pay less attention, regardless of what the manufacturers recommend. The aforementioned Tesla crash is a prime example where if the driver had been paying attention like he should have been he would have at least had a chance of surviving.

The public as a whole thinks in a funny way, we will tolerate thousands of highway deaths per year due to human error, but it will take just a few high-profile deaths caused by technology errors to sour the public on the idea of driverless cars.

Many deaths caused by human error are not tolerated. I hope the Google car can do better than an impaired driver or a texting teenager. When you remove all the accidents that should never have happened I wonder how many fatalities would be left each year?

[rjstractor]

Grit dog wrote:
Don't sell the stupidity of the general population short.

True statement. The transition to autonomous cars might be pretty messy and if not handled well it won't happen at all. As cars allow drivers to pay less attention at the wheel, they will pay less attention, regardless of what the manufacturers recommend. The aforementioned Tesla crash is a prime example where if the driver had been paying attention like he should have been he would have at least had a chance of surviving.

The public as a whole thinks in a funny way, we will tolerate thousands of highway deaths per year due to human error, but it will take just a few high-profile deaths caused by technology errors to sour the public on the idea of driverless cars.

[Grit_dog]

wilber1 wrote:
Back to the subject, the operator will always be ultimately responsible for what their vehicle does. A pilot can't say, it's not my fault we crashed, the autopilot was on. Neither will a driver.

Don't sell the stupidity of the general population short. We are seeing this already w Gps. Just a thread on it here even. We get auto pilot, autonomous whatever, that will be the first excuse.
Already happening more than you think in the cities. Seen a grown man who couldn't parallel park a compact car 2 days ago. Probably went and bought one with park assist yesterday after his show.
He was so messed up, that I passed him while he was taking the first couple stabs at it. By the time I came around the block, he was perpendicular to the street and finally gave up and drove out. I got a parking spot thanks to him at least.....

[Paul_Clancy]

Fully autonomous cars will have an encyclopedic terms of use agreement that no one will read. Just click "agree".
Love to see how this is playing in the insurance industry and policing. An investigator I've spoken with said there are no "accidents". Someone is always at fault. In this case it may be a programmer who was let off the hook with the agree button. In the current crop of driver assistance tech there are variances in implimentation that make some better than others. I've seen very expensive cars ram test rigs while testing crash avoidance. I've also seen cheaper cars do very well at saving occupants. As with everything buyer beware.

[wilber1]

Back to the subject, the operator will always be ultimately responsible for what their vehicle does. A pilot can't say, it's not my fault we crashed, the autopilot was on. Neither will a driver.

[toedtoes]

I don't think we can halt the elimination of "dumb jobs" simply by stopping AI. There are too many other causes of those eliminations, and not just the bottom of the barrel dumb jobs. When was the last time you went into a bank? How many tellers do you think they have nowadays? Fewer than before.

On the other hand, self-checkout at the grocery store was supposed to eliminate grocery clerks in full. How has that worked out? I don't see any fewer regular checkouts than before.

Things change. Types of jobs change. The jobs we hold today are far different than those we held 100 years ago - but we still manage.

As for the loss of the middle class, that is due to a lot more than AI.

[BenK]

The great American middle class 'used' to be the wealthiest in the world and made by the after metrics of WWII...unions, Gi bills (housing loans, student loans...higher education that only the upper class were privileged to have), explosion of automotive everything to spawn suburbia...etc

We are now second to Canada's middle class in terms of wealth and sinking to be 3rd soon to China...whom we paid them to become via out outsourcing of manufacturing and design...

With the public deman for the 'cheapest products at any cost'....management...not the government outsourced production off shore...forced the government to sign treaties that made it easier for corporate exec's to outsource even more...up to design...teaching them to become our peers in both 'middle class' and design (smarts)

Nay sayer's, do a search on American class wealth vs Canada. It now documented and official...the American Class is no longer the top middle class of the world

Automation is part of that, as foreign countries adopted factory automation earlier and in total before American exec's. My first couple careers were in robotics, factory automation, process control, AI, etc...NONE of my customers were government...even stuff or the military...prime contractors were our customers and lucky they chose an American firm (we were small and bid low just to get the business)

Here is a link to leading technologists who warn against AI....
Open Letter on Artificial Intelligence, of which agree whole heartedly


My largest automated factory was for US Steel in Alabama...put over 4,000 out of work directly and indirectly 2x or more.

Part of the contract had the Prime Contractor and us 2nd/3rd contractors teach those kept HOW2 maintain and run the largest mobile robots in the world and some of the largest stationary robots in the world...

Strange to see little old grand mothers operating these robots while wearing hard hats....they were unionized decades ago and were higher on the seniority list...so they got the 'new' tech based jobs.

Many of the young bucks refused to take our free training classes and decided best to take unemployment...

My best hires were the young guys who understood the need to change and most became supervisors of the crews left to operate and maintain the computers. Sensors took the most maintenance and last heard...their exec's were cutting budgeting in that area...while their competitors in China/Italiy/etc were NOT...I blame corporate Exec's for most of the issues of this discussion topic...

[fj12ryder]

LOL 🙂

[2oldman]

fj12ryder wrote:
just curious where all these "new skills" are going to rise from.

School.

[wing_zealot]

fj12ryder wrote:

2oldman wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:
Much as we may hate to admit it, the middle class was founded on the backs of factory workers.

That's fine, but times change. Do you want to halt automation to keep 'dumb' labor jobs? Ain't gonna happen.

Just commenting that the loss of those 'dumb' labor jobs may mean the demise of a large middle class.

You don't have to worry they will always need a guy to string those wires for building the robots if that's what you want to do. But you'll have to be willing to do it for the same price as that guy in China is willing to do it for. For me, I'd rather be the guy that you got to have "right now, money is no object" when that dumb robot who is incappable of thinking outside the box breaks down. Just remember, we don't need buggy whips anymore either, you either adapt or you get left behind. Your life, you get to choose.

[fj12ryder]

2oldman wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:
Just commenting that the loss of those 'dumb' labor jobs may mean the demise of a large middle class.

Unless they are willing to learn new skills, yes.

Just curious where all these "new skills" are going to rise from. How many more people will you need to sell new I-phones? Seems like there's lots of people with "new skills" being laid off from tech jobs now.

[2oldman]

fj12ryder wrote:
Just commenting that the loss of those 'dumb' labor jobs may mean the demise of a large middle class.

Unless they are willing to learn new skills, yes.