Electric truck - tow vehicle of future ?

[Lessmore]

Interesting article about an electric Class 7 truck .

Begs the question, are electric powered heavy duty pickups...ready for HD towing service... far behind ?

Range right now is somewhat limited, but where will it be in 5, 10, 15 years ?


Maybe the future is closer than we think.


Electric heavy duty truck (Class 7)

[John___Angela]

valhalla360 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:

Good morning. Nope. I'm talking full electric. I think the last two announcements I noticed were San Diego and Edmonton. Can't remember the rest but on one of the EV forums I follow there have been quite a few stories of various cities in the world making the switch.

Large scale installations or a few test units?

I do a little work with transit (not bus purchase but telematics on them) and hybrid is pretty much become the standard as it's a minimal cost difference and produces big results. Outside test cases and some small scale specialty uses haven't seen any large scale pure electrics.

Good morning. Well I don't much about this kinda thing. Just what I read on various medias, but when I read about cities replacing some or all of their fleets with electrics I would think it is past the proof of concept phase. I would be interested in seeing how the numbers wash out though. Many of the cities using the new technology are overseas but there are a dozen or so in North America as well. One of the manufacturers are not too far from me in Burnaby but many are in China as well.

[valhalla360]

John & Angela wrote:

Good morning. Nope. I'm talking full electric. I think the last two announcements I noticed were San Diego and Edmonton. Can't remember the rest but on one of the EV forums I follow there have been quite a few stories of various cities in the world making the switch.

Large scale installations or a few test units?

I do a little work with transit (not bus purchase but telematics on them) and hybrid is pretty much become the standard as it's a minimal cost difference and produces big results. Outside test cases and some small scale specialty uses haven't seen any large scale pure electrics.

[BenK]

Not always politics...

Some times it has to do with rebates/tax incentives/etc...to even tax credits by whatever entity trying to get this going

Windgenerators had full IRS tax credits up to $100,000.00 back in the early 80's

They had to 'fly' and generate electricity by midnight December 31st...can't remember the exact year

Limiting factors back then were the available workers out in those tiny towns and cranes.

Plenty of fly by night OEMs...we made tons on the tax credit sales and even more fixing all of the busted flyby night units (insurance work)

Ditto current climate in California for solar, which is going away soon, if not already

PS...for electric powered vehicles...using HP as a gauge skews it a bit. Wondering which metric will become the standard that the general public will both accept and understand

Electrics are better for stop and go than long cruising distances where the power storage become a bigger factor...that full to a few times 100% torque at zero RPM vs ICE's zero torque at zero RPM situation

[spoon059]

John & Angela wrote:
There would be no political reason to do it. Bus riders don't care how the bus is powered.

I can tell you that in my liberal county in liberal Maryland there is a TON of political reason to use alternative energy. Our local Ride On buses have been hybrid for many years and they are introducing all electric as well. The people that ride it don't care, but liberal voters and donors love to hear about a "feel good" story with little or no regard to practical application.

[John___Angela]

valhalla360 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:
There are a lot of North American cities switching to electric only buses. The bean counters must be making sense of it. There would be no political reason to do it. Bus riders don't care how the bus is powered.

Hybrid is getting a lot of real life use but outside demonstration units and tiny buses used in central areas of European cities, I haven't seen much pure electric.

Hybrid makes a lot of sense. A transit bus is a perfect use of hybrid. They typically operate on congested signalized corridors and with stops, rarely go more than 1/4 mile between stops. Average speeds of 20-30mph are common.

A standard diesel bus needs 250-300hp to get halfway decent acceleration which is a big deal given the use case and that engine is operating in a wide RPM range during acceleration and deceleration resulting in significant time spent outside the engines ideal power output range.

With a hybrid, a 75-100hp engine would be plenty to maintain the average speed and you can set it to run at a constant power output near it's peak efficiency. The only downside is if you need to move the bus to a new city and have to travel 50-100 miles on freeways. With only 75hp, top speed is probably going to be around 45-50mph unless the batteries give it a boost (which means limited range) or you oversize the engine which negates a lot of the benefits of hybrid. I haven't heard of anyone doing this but you could make a transport battery pack that could be loaded in the bus if you need to do a long distance move. It could simply be a modular set of batteries that are placed on the floor of the bus with quick connect wiring and a port to connect to the hybrid battery pack.

Good morning. Nope. I'm talking full electric. I think the last two announcements I noticed were San Diego and Edmonton. Can't remember the rest but on one of the EV forums I follow there have been quite a few stories of various cities in the world making the switch.

[valhalla360]

John & Angela wrote:
There are a lot of North American cities switching to electric only buses. The bean counters must be making sense of it. There would be no political reason to do it. Bus riders don't care how the bus is powered.

Hybrid is getting a lot of real life use but outside demonstration units and tiny buses used in central areas of European cities, I haven't seen much pure electric.

Hybrid makes a lot of sense. A transit bus is a perfect use of hybrid. They typically operate on congested signalized corridors and with stops, rarely go more than 1/4 mile between stops. Average speeds of 20-30mph are common.

A standard diesel bus needs 250-300hp to get halfway decent acceleration which is a big deal given the use case and that engine is operating in a wide RPM range during acceleration and deceleration resulting in significant time spent outside the engines ideal power output range.

With a hybrid, a 75-100hp engine would be plenty to maintain the average speed and you can set it to run at a constant power output near it's peak efficiency. The only downside is if you need to move the bus to a new city and have to travel 50-100 miles on freeways. With only 75hp, top speed is probably going to be around 45-50mph unless the batteries give it a boost (which means limited range) or you oversize the engine which negates a lot of the benefits of hybrid. I haven't heard of anyone doing this but you could make a transport battery pack that could be loaded in the bus if you need to do a long distance move. It could simply be a modular set of batteries that are placed on the floor of the bus with quick connect wiring and a port to connect to the hybrid battery pack.

[atreis]

Dayton OH still has electric buses powered from overhead lines...

Cummins has announced an electric powertrain for local trucks. Several companies are starting to build heavier vehicles with hybrid powertrains (e.g. Volvo XC90) but they're still expensive. I do think electric's time has come more generally, but it'll be a slow transition as the costs come down.

[John___Angela]

Lessmore wrote:

John & Angela wrote:
There are a lot of North American cities switching to electric only busses. The bean counters must be making sense of it. There would be no political reason to do it. Bus riders don't care how the bus is powered.

I disagree. There is a political reason for having electric powered buses. Many politicians love the perception that they are 'green' if they support electric, non ICE buses. Why...because they see it as a factor that will appeal to a segment of society and give the politico an advantage at election time.

Many passengers also support electric buses for the same reason...they perceive it as 'green' and 'good' for their city and...therefore... by extension them, as citizens. A lot of what we do or think we do is about perception...after all, many of us want to be perceived as good citizenry. "Green' is good in the minds of many. Not all may completely understand why or how, but if a good argument...whether accurate or inaccurate... is made, then that's good enough for many. Unfortunately in this world the facility of independent thought...like common sense...is not all that common.


Some history about electric powered buses.

I worked for a city mass transit years ago, while working my way through U.

Up to about the early '60's many cities in North America had fully electric powered buses. In my city in Western Canada we had electric powered buses that got their electric power to drive the electric motors from a series of overhead wire cables, that connected to the bus via long trolley bars.

Occasionally going too fast around a corner would make the trolley bar...jump...the connection to the overhead electric cable. The bus would come to an immediate halt and the driver would have to get out and position the trolley bars to the overhead cable.

These fully electric buses had tremendous acceleration for such a heavy vehicle, that fully loaded would carry a total between 95-100 people..who would either be sitting or standing. Of course as others have stated an electric motor has maximum torque at zero rpm. That's the reason for the punch.

The electric motor passenger capacity number would equal the passenger capacity of a similar sized ICE powered bus. So no difference in carrying capacity.

Disadvantage....the trolley lines were confined to heavily traveled main streets...on all other streets the buses were ICE powered. Reason was cost. The purchase, installation and maintenance of trolley cable overhead lines was quite expensive.

There was also a maintenance cost involved. Specially designed and equipped service trucks with trained personnel used to repair electric overhead lines and the buses. A cost. ICE buses also have their costs. Both are not maintenance free.

As an aside the service trucks were unusual. They were generally medium duty cab overs (IH, GM,Ford) with high cube boxes. Ladders would be attached to the back of the cube box and there was a fenced work area on top of the high cube box, that service personnel would work from. Back then I did't recall any cherry pickers used.

My city used electric trolley buses because in our province it was an advantage as we have the 'fuel' (electricity) in huge and relatively cheap abundance.

We have many powerful rivers that have huge hydro dams that provide relatively cheap electricity. Have had since the very early 1900's.

So much, so that we sell excess electric power to some states and other provinces. In our case it makes sense to harness electricity, as we generate an awful lot of it at good cost.

Good morning Lessmore. You may be right but I would still be interesting to see the numbers. Edmonton will be replacing their entire fleet with electric over the next few years. They don't strike me as strong environmentalist types. There must be some economic benefit.

We also live in BC. We kinda like the fact that when we charge our two electric vehicles the power is coming from the Revelstoke Dam sixty miles away...and yah it's cheap.

Cheers

[Lessmore]

John & Angela wrote:
There are a lot of North American cities switching to electric only busses. The bean counters must be making sense of it. There would be no political reason to do it. Bus riders don't care how the bus is powered.

I disagree. There is a political reason for having electric powered buses. Many politicians love the perception that they are 'green' if they support electric, non ICE buses. Why...because they see it as a factor that will appeal to a segment of society and give the politico an advantage at election time.

Many passengers also support electric buses for the same reason...they perceive it as 'green' and 'good' for their city and...therefore... by extension them, as citizens. A lot of what we do or think we do is about perception...after all, many of us want to be perceived as good citizenry. "Green' is good in the minds of many. Not all may completely understand why or how, but if a good argument...whether accurate or inaccurate... is made, then that's good enough for many. Unfortunately in this world the facility of independent thought...like common sense...is not all that common.


Some history about electric powered buses.

I worked for a city mass transit years ago, while working my way through U.

Up to about the early '60's many cities in North America had fully electric powered buses. In my city in Western Canada we had electric powered buses that got their electric power to drive the electric motors from a series of overhead wire cables, that connected to the bus via long trolley bars.

Occasionally going too fast around a corner would make the trolley bar...jump...the connection to the overhead electric cable. The bus would come to an immediate halt and the driver would have to get out and position the trolley bars to the overhead cable.

These fully electric buses had tremendous acceleration for such a heavy vehicle, that fully loaded would carry a total between 95-100 people..who would either be sitting or standing. Of course as others have stated an electric motor has maximum torque at zero rpm. That's the reason for the punch.

The electric motor passenger capacity number would equal the passenger capacity of a similar sized ICE powered bus. So no difference in carrying capacity.

Disadvantage....the trolley lines were confined to heavily traveled main streets...on all other streets the buses were ICE powered. Reason was cost. The purchase, installation and maintenance of trolley cable overhead lines was quite expensive.

There was also a maintenance cost involved. Specially designed and equipped service trucks with trained personnel used to repair electric overhead lines and the buses. A cost. ICE buses also have their costs. Both are not maintenance free.

As an aside the service trucks were unusual. They were generally medium duty cab overs (IH, GM,Ford) with high cube boxes. Ladders would be attached to the back of the cube box and there was a fenced work area on top of the high cube box, that service personnel would work from. Back then I did't recall any cherry pickers used.

My city used electric trolley buses because in our province it was an advantage as we have the 'fuel' (electricity) in huge and relatively cheap abundance.

We have many powerful rivers that have huge hydro dams that provide relatively cheap electricity. Have had since the very early 1900's.

So much, so that we sell excess electric power to some states and other provinces. In our case it makes sense to harness electricity, as we generate an awful lot of it at good cost.

[John___Angela]

There are a lot of North American cities switching to electric only busses. The bean counters must be making sense of it. There would be no political reason to do it. Bus riders don't care how the bus is powered.

[Bedlam]

I'm actually surprised garbage trucks are being considered for electric use. They are often over weight after completing a run and a big battery pack will most likely weigh more than their current engine.

[thomasmnile]

Lessmore wrote:
Interesting article link about electrification of specific heavy duty role, city route garbage trucks. Limited miles per day, regeneration of electric power using a turbine and charge regen through brakes.

Here in the States, Frito Lay is starting to operate an all electric medium duty product delivery fleet. Saw one of their EV's making a delivery at the neighborhood supermarket a week or two ago. About a 20' box truck affair. Battery boxes looked to be mounted on the frame rails on both sides. Cabover style, couldn't tell if it used motors on front, rear, or both axles.

[Lessmore]

Interesting article link about electrification of specific heavy duty role, city route garbage trucks. Limited miles per day, regeneration of electric power using a turbine and charge regen through brakes.

Predictable, low mileage route could work well for this application. But perhaps not long distance apps.

City route garbage trucks may use electric motors

However I'm thinking range increase for long distance will certainly be an engineering problem. Generally engineering issues are figured out, down the road...no pun intended. 😉

I don't know much about a turbine regenerating power in a battery. I wonder if it's similar to Class 8 idea I read in Pop. Mechanics magazine a number of years ago. From what I recall, a Class 8 truck had a gas/propane (can't recall which) industrial GM 4.3 V8 (3/4s of Chevy small block 350 V8)that ran constantly, charging batteries for electric motors in the truck. The batteries provided power for the electric motors...the GM 4.3 charged the batteries.

Sort of like a diesel electric in a locomotive if I recall correctly.

This idea would be a hybrid of sorts and I wonder if the electric only powered vehicle is not the solution. Maybe a hybrid ICE/ electric makes more sense for many applications. Modern technology could probably spec out a much smaller ICE engine, than the 4.3 V6, nowadays.

Anyway just some idle speculation on my part. 😄

[valhalla360]

Found this from a Jan 2017 article from consumers report:

"Apparently, the hour has arrived. Model S reliability jumped to average, which moved the performance EV into the testing agency’s “recommended” column."

So after being out how many years and having the supposedly massive advantage of a single moving part in the motor...they got up to "average" reliability.

I have some issues with consumers report and this is overall reliability so other issues beyond drive-train kick in but the Mod S is not a new model where you can chalk it up to new model bugs.

Again, I'm not suggesting electric motors (ignoring, the battery pack, battery charger, motor controllers, etc...) are not very reliable but gasoline and diesel engines are also very reliable.

[brulaz]

hone eagle wrote:

...
I Know I was just pointing that out to the warm weather drivers ,heat air condition cost miles ,and if the market is only southern states they will be nich product and expensive.

Right now I think that's what they are.

You see quite a few of the expensive Teslas up in Muskoka, as the big-lake-dwellers can afford them, and there's Tesla Charging stations both in Huntsville and in Barrie.

Non-Tesla fast chargers are very slowly appearing, but they don't currently have the support that Tesla's do. Tesla was very smart in putting together and maintaining their grid of charging stations.