K&N Air Filter?

[Jayco23FB]

I am thinking of getting a K&N cold air kit for my 2007 Chev 2500HD 6.0L gas. I would like to here from those that have used them or any issues with these filters. Thanks

[jfkmk]

It was only 9 hp until I threw in the STP and Hooker Headers stickers.

[B_O__Plenty]

jfkmk wrote:

Sport45 wrote:
If you had a chevy in the late 70's / early 80's all you had to do to get extra power was flip the air cleaner cover. 🙂
(When the secondaries opened it sounded cool anyway.)

Ahh, the good old days...

I got a 10 hp gain on my 71 Challenger by doing just that!

10 H.P.....I'm throwing the B.S. flag...

B.O.

[jfkmk]

Sport45 wrote:
If you had a chevy in the late 70's / early 80's all you had to do to get extra power was flip the air cleaner cover. 🙂
(When the secondaries opened it sounded cool anyway.)

Ahh, the good old days...

I got a 10 hp gain on my 71 Challenger by doing just that!

[Sport45]

If you had a chevy in the late 70's / early 80's all you had to do to get extra power was flip the air cleaner cover. 🙂
(When the secondaries opened it sounded cool anyway.)

Ahh, the good old days...

[jfkmk]

BenK wrote:
There is a balance between after market engineering and OEM engineering

Of course OEM has hundreds of millions $ spent on R&D per vehicle
platform vs the small percentage R&D any after market can spend. This is
PER YEAR

I've looked at several after market cold air systems and noted that
all of the ones I've checked out has engine bay air ingested.

On that, the colder the intake air delivered into the CC will allow
more advance vs higher temp intake air because colder air has a lower
pre-ignition potential. Hence many 'think' it increases the octane, which
is incorrect. Octane is a rating or measure of the 'gasoline' potential
ignition characteristics

Since it will have a better ignition characteristic than heated air,
the computer will allow more advance up to a preset point (either or
both mechanical or software)

I've kept the OEM intake system from the filter to the engine...but...
have modified it for cold, ram air. The OEM system on my GMT400 also
has a cold air system, but it does gain a bit of heat via the engine
bay fender sheetmetal in contact with heated engine bay air flow

OEM has two filters. Standard and HD. I use the HD and it is about 2"
larger in dia...therefore more filtration area...therefore lower PSI
drop. This image is of both and from NAPA


I also change air filters around 20K miles or 2 years, whichever comes
first



Designed my ram, cold air intake system to be complimentary to the OEM
intake system and have better performance than OEM. Write-up HOW2
in below link with pictures
My cold, ram air system


Discovered that the OEM filter box is double insulated both for noise
control and thermal insulation from the heated engine bay air

OEM has the filter box ingest through the passenger side void between
the outsider fender and the engine bay liner. That then has an opening
in front of the radiator wall just behind the head lamp assembly

The inner fender sheetmetal is filled with holes and one large hole
for the antenna cable.

Kept that system and duct taped over all of the holes



Then cut a hole in the bottom of the filter box and wheel well sheetmetal








Scoop just under the bumper. First was part of the drainage hose
components, but lost that in a fender bender. This is the new one
and is a home heating vent made of sheetmetal


With the scoop....my design has more PSI than the OEM, which I left
intact just in case have to ford a stream or some sort of water, as
find bugs, small rocks, sand, etc in the bottom of the filter box
that was never there before with just the OEM setup

Cleaned up the bugs, rocks and sand...then decided to take this pic
to show that water mist has also been scooped up. Note the water mark
and the new ram, cold air hose poking up through the bottom of the
filter box. Also note the OEM hole on top and that goes into a complimentary
hole in the fender void area

Google National Lampoons Thunderchicken

[Fast0ne]

Gdetrailer wrote:
FastOne writes “So because you say you did not oil the filter. As I have seen k&n filters come not oiled and the ones that come pre oiled would not have enough to get oil on the maf. “

You truly do not have a clue, do you?

Per K&N..

HERE
10. Do K&N air filters come pre-oiled or must they be oiled before using?

Almost all K&N air filters come pre-oiled and ready to use. The filter oil we use is red. A new oiled filter will appear red-pink in color. Some crankcase vent air filters come unoiled, however, they come with a small packet of K&N filter oil so they can be oiled before use. There are also a limited number of filters with specialty uses which are not pre-oiled. These items will be clearly marked as unoiled. Using an unoiled K&N filter will greatly reduce the filter's efficiency and void our product warranty on filters that come pre-oiled from the factory. If you receive a filter that is packaged in its cellophane wrapper and is unoiled, contact K&N's Customer Support department at (800) 858-3333.

The Filter for that Cougar CAME PREOILED FROM K&N.

It was CLEARLY MARKED as PREOILED and that the filter was readky to use.

The fact that it was wrapped in a completely oil soaked sealed plastic cellophane should have been a warning to me to not use.

“And because your butt dyno did not notice a increase then this is fault of the filter. Go to a dyno and start doing pulls. “

Once again you do not have a clue..

Me and a few buddies tested this USING ¼ mile speed and time. There WAS NO DIFFERENCE in time or speed at the end of the quarter mile.

Dynos in the real world are often misleading since often times they will show “gains” in RPM ranges well above normal daily driving use.

“And you owned a 93 cougar that made no power to start with you thought a filter would give you a 50hp gain. And the issues you had were because you did not disconnect the battery. “

Once again you show absolutely you have no clue as to what you are talking about, besides that car with a factory 5.0 V8 was surprisingly fast and got an outstanding 27 MPG with zero mods... I just figured that if the marketing hype had ANY real gains like K&N PROMISED I should have had slightly FASTER ¼ mile runs but that never surfaced. The computer on that car used simple fuel mappings, all you had to do is allow engine to idle for 10 minutes and it WOULD relearn all settings.. No magic involved.

I was not looking for “50HP gain”, but if you gained even 1 HP there WILL be a difference in the ¼ mile time and speed. There WAS ZERO difference and that was after multiple passes and averaging the runs, the results were consistent across the board and statistically insignificant .

K&N USED TO CLAIM up to 15 HP but that is in a LABORATORY DYNO SETTING, NOT REAL WORLD. Not to mention now days they have quietly REMOVED the HP “gain” from their advertisements.. I wonder why?

Your argument is NULL AND VOID.

“Also you have no idea how a cars computer works or functions to how the computer needs to be cleared to relearn the new air flow coming in. This is why most ppl that skip this step get a lean code because there is more air entering the motor. “

Once again, you have no clue.. You really don’t understand how the computers in a vehicle CAN “relearn” without pulling the battery power. The relearn IS BUILT in older vehicles it only took TEN minutes of idle time and newer vehicles now days WILL relearn within MINUTES and FULLY ADJUST in one or two complete drive “cycles”.

You have a DIFFERENT issue if you get a “lean” code, you CAN even leave the filter out completely and NEVER get a lean code..

“But you keep hating on after market filters that do work. And if you would like to go to the dyno I will meet you there and we can do some dyno runs so maybe you will see that you will make power.”

Put your money where your mouth is..Post YOUR “dyno” results HERE ON THIS PUBLIC FORUM (keeping in mind the results must not be skewed by OTHER MODS like chips, tunes, exhaust, intake or Throttle body changes). Any mods done to “help” get more power make filter performance testing completely null and void.. You won’t/can’t do it since you KNOW that you made OTHER performance mods during your dyno test.

I am not making any “claims” that K&N is better in HP or mileage, YOU are.

Even K&N has dropped their old advertising claims which used to state up to 15HP, now they “promise” HP gains and give no real independent data to backup the claims..

Even worse yet is the fact they THEY OWN their own “dyno “ testing facilities and use that “data” to make their claims..

HERE

“K&N Power & Torque Testing Information

TESTING FACILITIES AND METHODS K&N maintains testing facilities in the USA, the UK and the Netherlands. “

Sort of like letting the “wolf” guard the sheep..

They OWN their own testing facility so they can SKEW the numbers any way they wish to..

Here is one extremely well hidden dyno chart which K&N has on their website..

K&N DYNO CHART

Notice that on that chart they supposedly had a 14.96 HP “gain”, but that was at 6200 RPM! :E Are you REALLY going to run your engine all day at 6,200 RPM? :S This IS a RV related forum and you simply are not going to find pickup truck and RV engines turning anywhere near 6,000+ RPM..

Any “gain” they showed at NORMAL DRIVING RPM RANGE were BARELY SIGNIFICANT (LESS than 1/2 HP at 2,000-3,000), notice the lines are nearly on top of each other and under 2,000 RPMS the lines ARE on top of each other.

OK, so now your are thinking well they do show 1/2HP of Gain so that IS a gain, right? WRONG.

1/2HP of “gain” is statistically insignificant when compared to the engine HP..

Their test used a 226HP engine so ½ HP is .22% supposed increase and that is ONLY with their COMPLETE INTAKE KIT which deletes the OEM filter box…

Keeping in mind that the dyno chart shown is for the K&N INTAKE KIT, not just the filter as a drop in.

Statistically the “gains” are non existent unless you are planning to run 6,000-6,200 RPMs, I don’t drive in that RPM range.. In fact my vehicles now days at 70 MPH are turning 2200 RPM and when towing I rarely see anything above 3,000 RPM and when it is above 3,000 RPMs it was only for seconds and no more than 4,000 RPM and that is pulling 9%-11% grades with 6,500 lbs of trailer and cargo..

As far as mileage “improvements” even K&N backpedals and waffles on that too.. Buried deep in their website is this note..

K&N WAFFLES ON FUEL ECONOMY

“Fuel Economy
Fuel economy testing and mileage claims are a tricky business. Just ask the EPA, whose website states, “EPA’s fuel economy estimates are designed to allow consumers to comparison shop. Your fuel economy will almost certainly vary from EPA’s fuel economy rating. This is based on a number of factors, such as weather, road conditions, your driving and maintenance habits, and your use of air conditioning.” A lot of exaggerated claims are made in the marketplace by products claiming to improve gas mileage. K&N makes no general fuel economy claims, however we encourage you to try our air filter for yourself. Keeping air filter restriction as low as possible can be an important tool, among others, for maintaining high mileage. “

In other words simply REGULARLY CHECKING AND REPLACING a dirty paper filter with new NEW PAPER filter will do the same thing AT LESS COST..


If this type of filter was so good, the OEMS WOULD be making part of the OEM assembly since it would be a very CHEAP way to “gain” mileage and HP.. But they DON’T since there IS NO GAINS to be had.

As far as those dyno charts that K&N touts, THEY OWN THE TEST FACILITY for those tests therefore they ARE NOT INDEPENDENT therefore NOT RELIABLE. ANYONE CAN SKEW the dyno tests if they like to show a product as better..

You would rather believe some artificial inflated marketing claims..

A few years back a group of motorists on a forum actually PAID to test not only K&N filters but OTHER aftermarket filters.. K&N filter FAILED the dust test, while K&N showed it flowed better when clean, it also clogged FASTER but yet allowed MORE DUST to get through.

Even though a K&N might “flow” more air, more air flow DOES NOT always result in more power. If it was that simple the OEMs WOULD have saved millions in research and development costs and tossed a K&N on the vehicles from the factory..

INDEPENDENT AIR FILTER TESTING

The following is a quote from Arlen.

(Arlen) SPICER wrote,
“Now that I am not doing the tests and my objectivity is not necessary, let me explain my motivation. The reason I started this crusade was that I was seeing people spend a lot of money on aftermarket filters based on the word of a salesperson or based on the misleading, incomplete or outright deceiving information printed on boxes and in sales literature. Gentlemen and Ladies, Marketing and the lure of profit is VERY POWERFUL! It is amazing how many people believe that better airflow = more power! Unless you have modifications out the wazoo, a more porous filter will just dirty your oil! Some will say " I have used aftermarket brand X for XXX # years with no problems. The PROBLEM is you spent a chunk of ching on a product that not only DID NOT increase your horsepower, but also let in a lot of dirt while doing it! Now how much is a lot? ANY MORE THAN NECESSARY is TOO MUCH!

Others are persuaded by the claims of aftermarket manufacturers that their filters filter dirt "better than any other filter on the market." Sounds very enticing. To small timers like you and me, spending $1500 to test a filter sounds like a lot. But if you were a filter manufacturer and you believed your filter could filter dirt better than any other media on the market, wouldn't you want to prove it? Guess what. Test your filter vs. the OE paper. It will cost you $3000 and for that price you will have the data that you can use in your advertisements. Your investment will be returned a thousand fold! EASIER than shooting fish in a barrel! So why don't these manufacturers do this? Hmmm? Probably not because they would feel guilty about taking more market share.

Now I am not saying that ALL aftermarket filters are useless. A paper filter does not do well if directly wetted or muddy. It may collapse. This is why many off-road filters are foam. It is a compromise between filtering efficiency and protection from a collapsed filter. Now how many of our trucks collapse their filters from mud and water? However, if a filter is using "better airflow" as their marketing tool, remember this....Does it flow better? At very high airflow volumes, probably. BUT, Our trucks CAN'T flow that much air unless super-modified, so what is the point? The stock filter will flow MORE THAN ENOUGH AIR to give you ALL THE HORSEPOWER the engine has to give. And this remains true until the filter is dirty enough to trip the air filter life indicator. At that point performance will decline somewhat. Replace the filter and get on with it.

Hopefully the results of this test will do 2 things. Shed some light on the misleading marketing claims of some aftermarket manufacturers and/or give us new insight on products already on the market that are superior to our OE filter. I stand for truth and will eat my words publicly if my statements prove wrong. I appreciate all of the help and support that you members have offered in this project. It would simply be impossible without your help. A huge thanks to Ken at Testand for his willingness to take on this project. I would be spinning my wheels from here to eternity without his help… SPICER”

Our thanks to Arlen and Ken for making the test happen and providing the valuable test results for the benefit of all.

You don't have a clue dummy.

You just showed me a stament that said. (Most K&N filters come pre oiled)MOST.

And where do you think the manufacture gets its power numbers from. They give you a power number that's at full open throttle. And on top of that they can't even give you a rear wheel power number.

This is why k&n give you a side by side before and after power number. And K&N has been used by other company's to get numbers and numbers always come out.

I would post my dyno sheets but seeing how the truck is now full tuned it will help no one here including you. (If you know how to read one)

And as far as the computer in the car it takes more than 10mins even on a old obd1 set up. I know this as I worked at ford and gm at the time obd1 was used and it can take up to a week for a full relearn.

And everything else you wasted time posting is just crap.

And did you know the can that sprays the oil on is recyclable also.

And if you do not want to oil or deal with a K&N filter just go buy a AEM dry flow filter. This only requires you to was with a soap solution that they sell problem solved.

Thanks and lets move on.

[Gdetrailer]

As far as “environmental” thing goes, really? Do you realize what is in those reoiling spray cans is not really environmentally friendly?

Do you realize the main ingredient IS PETROLEUM PRODUCTS?

It IS the SAME as dumping your engine oil (or ANY petroleum based product) on the ground…

Filter cleaning kit MSDS
MSDS LINK

Oil..

This product is classified as a HAZARDOUS SUBSTANCE and as
DANGEROUS GOODS according to the classification criteria of
NOHSC:1088 (2004) and ADG Code (Australia).

DISTILLATES (PETROLEUM),
HYDROTREATED HEAVY
PARAFFINIC

1-DECENE, HOMOPOLYMER,
HYDROGENATED

C.I. SOLVENT RED 164 (DYE)

PETROLEUM GASES, LIQUIFIED
SWEETENED

Hazardous Decomposition Products:
Carbon, nitrogen and sulfur oxides, hydrocarbons, phosgene.

Power Kleen cleaner

hazard Identification:
This product is classified as a HAZARDOUS SUBST
ANCE but not as DANGEROUS GOODS according to the
classification criteria of NOHSC:1088 (2004) and ADG Code (Aus
tralia). WARNING! Skin and eye irritant. H315 –
Causes skin irritation. H319 – Causes
serious eye irritation. P264 – Wash ha
nds and exposed skin areas thoroughly
after handling.

SODIUM METASILICATE
PENTAHYDRATE

So where do you clean and reoil your filters?

Kitchen sink?

Outside in the grass?

Driveway?

Neighbors yard?

That solvent used to clean the old oil off HAS to go somewhere and not to mention the old oil that the solvent removed..

Not to mention all the chemicals involved in PROCESSING the COTTON FIBER of the filter during manufacturing.

You "environmentally friendly" guys really are funny to say the least..

[Gdetrailer]

Timmac writes “So there's your problem, after 20,000 miles and who knows how long you never cleaned or reoiled the filter ??

Dude the K&N filters need cleaned 1 to 2 times per year and reoiled, that is what keeps the filter working good..

STRIKE FOUR.."

Boy you also do not have a clue… You struck out.

Per K&N faqs

HERE

“4. How often do I need to clean my K&N air filter?

If you have not experienced a decrease in mileage or engine performance, chances are your filter is fine and does not yet need cleaning. To be more specific, the filter does not require cleaning if you can still see the wire screen on the entire air filter regardless of how dirty it may appear. When the screen is no longer visible some place on the filter, it is time to clean it. When used in normal paved road, street or highway conditions, our replacement air filters that fit in the factory air box should require cleaning every 50,000 miles and our large conical filters on an intake system should require cleaning every 100,000 miles. When used in dusty or off-road environments, our filters will require cleaning more often. We recommend that you visually inspect your filter once every 25,000 miles to determine if the screen is still visible. “

So according to K&N a PREOILED FILTER DIRECTLY from their factory under typical STREET DRIVING conditions is GOOD FOR AT LEAST 50,000 MILES. You ONLY NEED TO CLEAN AND REOIL IF THE METAL SCREEN IS NO LONGER “VISABLE”. Which means at 20,000 miles my filter DID NOT NEED CLEANING and reoiling unless the screen was no longer visable.

Get you facts straight…

[Fast0ne]

NinerBikes wrote:

Fast0ne wrote:

NinerBikes wrote:

Fast0ne wrote:

NinerBikes wrote:
I want an air filter to filter the dirt and cr*p out of my air, not let it breathe on in all filthy and through my motor. If any of these K&N filters made more power, K&N would be showing dyno runs, side by side, stock and K&N, in their advertisement, to prove their point.

They can't, and they don't... there's your sign. Anything turbocharged and diesel sucks more air with a stock air filter, that an aftermarket unit is a non issue. Motor manufacturers know what's good for their motors, and what makes a motor last... false promises of more power don't do any motor any good.

Well I now I know you don't know how to use the internet. If you go to k&n website they show dyno runs with before and after runs.

Motor manufactures build there motors to live a long boring life.


That's why they make neat things like power programmers,HP Tuners that's a computer tuning program that retunes the factory computer. They make headers,cat back exhaust systems,and air intakes.

As it has been proven a million times over a added air intake will not cause motor issues it will not void any warranty.

I know all these smart folks here that hate intakes do not understand that a motor is a big ass air pump. So adding a exhaust and a air intake will make more power because more air in more air out. (Ok still with me)

Now why do they say to disconnect the battery. This is so the computer can reset it self and began to learn the new added air to tell the vehicle that there is more air entering the motor.people that do not do this step will notice no gain for a long time or will end up with check engine light or hard starting.

And as I mentioned before. AEM was bought out by K&N.

I know you don't know that I worked for Brush Research Manufacturing at one point in time. That I've seen more bores wrecked by dirt in a couple of years working there than you'll ever see in a life time. That Brush Research designed and manufactures The Flex Hone. So what's your point. Not being an engineer, you've no idea what the design and the intent is of engineers that design, test and build motors. Nor do you, or K&N warranty motors. I am quite happy with boring stock performance, because I know that Germans engineer everything power/drivetrain wise, into an integrated package, and the moment you make modifications, you cause failure in the next weakest link in the drive train.

Modifications are for kids, and boys that never grow up. I'm past the d*ck dragging contest / stage in my life. I buy a vehicle, new, that will do what I need it to do, from the factory, or I find something that will do what I need. I don't create unnecessary needs. I figure OEM manufacturers of filters like Mann, Mahle, know how to make filter that actually do filter. I figure that when a 3rd party like Arlen Spicer, who has no skin in the game, hires an independent 3rd party lab, that has no money in the outcome of the tests, posts up the results, that I am getting an unbiased results from the testing. I don't need a decal advertising what brand of air filter I am running, and I don't need a sponsor either for air filters. The paper ones in my TDI's are good for 60k Miles, with no waste of time cleaning or tampering with. They do the job. My time is worth more not having to clean a dirty air filter and re oil. Order a 60K service kit, boxes arrive at my door, free UPS shipping, flip open a Fumoto valve, R&R an oil filter and O rings, and clean out an airbox and install a new air filter, add oil filter, close fumoto valve and add new oil.

Worried about land fill from your old air filter? Burn it. It's paper.

Do you want a gold star for where you used to work. (Here you go)

All you have done is prove that you are old fart that really knows nothing about the modern world of how automobiles work and the performance that can be had from them.

You know nothing of me and what degrees I have and how many motors I have torn down and rebuild. Everything from auto to boat motors to heavy-duty diesel motors for cat and other companies.

And let me share that any motor I have torn down had no affects fro the use of a k&n oiled filter. And I guess you like to kill the environment because burning your paper filter also contains the rubber that surrounds the paper filter. Guess you still pour old gas and oil in your back yard to further kill things. (Thanks so much)

K&N filters can be recycled (not that you know what that is) and will last a lot longer and keep more filters out of land fills. (Or in your case burning a filter and contaminating the environment )

So you just enjoy your bone stock vehicle and stay out of a discussion where people may want to give there vehicle some extra power.

You're talking about contaminating the environment burning a filter, when you want to allow for more air and more fuel being burned in a pump engine in a shorter period of time, more CO and Nox in our atmosphere, so you can go a little bit faster, and waste more oil doing what? Pushing air out of the way faster with a big heaping 5th wheel or travel trailer behind you? Dumb and dumber... your justification for more power. Look at your carbon foot print. Versus burning a little bit of paper, with the rubber seal recycled. Hypocrite. Your logic is flawed.

I'm retired, I got no deadlines, nowhere I have to go or be at a certain time. Certainly not trying to "make time" on public roads. You want to get there on time, leave sooner. Or fly, instead of drive.

Wow you are dum as a post. (Can't teach a old dummy new tricks)

By tuning the vehical I am able to keep the fuel to air ratio better by making more power at all rpms from dead stop to full throttle. And after tuning my truck does not run as rich on start up and at full throttle. (That's what tuning does with a modern vehical computer).

So I am in no rush as I have no place to get to fast but having the truck tuned on a dyno and actually simulating while towing we made more power in the range that I wanted.

And not like I am ripping the cats out of my vehical. I have this neat thing called aircare here in vancouver bc. And guess what after tuning the truck according to there reading my truck is running cleaner getting better gas mileage and is still a low emissions vehical as it was before.

So as I stated before you have no knowledge to what you are talking about. K&N does do in house dyno numbers before and after,and you can't show me any motor that has had faliure due to a K&N air filter.

So please just leave this thread because you have no knowledge of a modern computer controlled vehicle.

[Gdetrailer]

FastOne writes “So because you say you did not oil the filter. As I have seen k&n filters come not oiled and the ones that come pre oiled would not have enough to get oil on the maf. “

You truly do not have a clue, do you?

Per K&N..

HERE
10. Do K&N air filters come pre-oiled or must they be oiled before using?

Almost all K&N air filters come pre-oiled and ready to use. The filter oil we use is red. A new oiled filter will appear red-pink in color. Some crankcase vent air filters come unoiled, however, they come with a small packet of K&N filter oil so they can be oiled before use. There are also a limited number of filters with specialty uses which are not pre-oiled. These items will be clearly marked as unoiled. Using an unoiled K&N filter will greatly reduce the filter's efficiency and void our product warranty on filters that come pre-oiled from the factory. If you receive a filter that is packaged in its cellophane wrapper and is unoiled, contact K&N's Customer Support department at (800) 858-3333.

The Filter for that Cougar CAME PREOILED FROM K&N.

It was CLEARLY MARKED as PREOILED and that the filter was ready to use.

The fact that it was wrapped in a completely oil soaked sealed plastic cellophane should have been a warning to me to not use.

“And because your butt dyno did not notice a increase then this is fault of the filter. Go to a dyno and start doing pulls. “

Once again you do not have a clue..

Me and a few buddies tested this USING ¼ mile speed and time. There WAS NO DIFFERENCE in time or speed at the end of the quarter mile.

Dynos in the real world are often misleading since often times they will show “gains” in RPM ranges well above normal daily driving use.

“And you owned a 93 cougar that made no power to start with you thought a filter would give you a 50hp gain. And the issues you had were because you did not disconnect the battery. “

Once again you show absolutely you have no clue as to what you are talking about, besides that car with a factory 5.0 V8 was surprisingly fast and got an outstanding 27 MPG with zero mods... I just figured that if the marketing hype had ANY real gains like K&N PROMISED I should have had slightly FASTER ¼ mile runs but that never surfaced. The computer on that car used simple fuel mappings, all you had to do is allow engine to idle for 10 minutes and it WOULD relearn all settings.. No magic involved.

I was not looking for “50HP gain”, but if you gained even 1 HP there WILL be a difference in the ¼ mile time and speed. There WAS ZERO difference and that was after multiple passes and averaging the runs, the results were consistent across the board and statistically insignificant .

K&N USED TO CLAIM up to 15 HP but that is in a LABORATORY DYNO SETTING, NOT REAL WORLD. Not to mention now days they have quietly REMOVED the HP “gain” from their advertisements.. I wonder why?

Your argument is NULL AND VOID.

“Also you have no idea how a cars computer works or functions to how the computer needs to be cleared to relearn the new air flow coming in. This is why most ppl that skip this step get a lean code because there is more air entering the motor. “

Once again, you have no clue.. You really don’t understand how the computers in a vehicle CAN “relearn” without pulling the battery power. The relearn IS BUILT in older vehicles it only took TEN minutes of idle time and newer vehicles now days WILL relearn within MINUTES and FULLY ADJUST in one or two complete drive “cycles”.

You have a DIFFERENT issue if you get a “lean” code, you CAN even leave the filter out completely and NEVER get a lean code..

“But you keep hating on after market filters that do work. And if you would like to go to the dyno I will meet you there and we can do some dyno runs so maybe you will see that you will make power.”

Put your money where your mouth is..Post YOUR “dyno” results HERE ON THIS PUBLIC FORUM (keeping in mind the results must not be skewed by OTHER MODS like chips, tunes, exhaust, intake or Throttle body changes). Any mods done to “help” get more power make filter performance testing completely null and void.. You won’t/can’t do it since you KNOW that you made OTHER performance mods during your dyno test.

I am not making any “claims” that K&N is better in HP or mileage, YOU are.

Even K&N has dropped their old advertising claims which used to state up to 15HP, now they “promise” HP gains and give no real independent data to backup the claims..

Even worse yet is the fact they THEY OWN their own “dyno “ testing facilities and use that “data” to make their claims..

HERE

“K&N Power & Torque Testing Information

TESTING FACILITIES AND METHODS K&N maintains testing facilities in the USA, the UK and the Netherlands. “

Sort of like letting the “wolf” guard the sheep..

They OWN their own testing facility so they can SKEW the numbers any way they wish to..

Here is one extremely well hidden dyno chart which K&N has on their website..

K&N DYNO CHART

Notice that on that chart they supposedly had a 14.96 HP “gain”, but that was at 6200 RPM! :E Are you REALLY going to run your engine all day at 6,200 RPM? :S This IS a RV related forum and you simply are not going to find pickup truck and RV engines turning anywhere near 6,000+ RPM..

Any “gain” they showed at NORMAL DRIVING RPM RANGE were BARELY SIGNIFICANT (LESS than 1/2 HP at 2,000-3,000), notice the lines are nearly on top of each other and under 2,000 RPMS the lines ARE on top of each other.

OK, so now your are thinking well they do show 1/2HP of Gain so that IS a gain, right? WRONG.

1/2HP of “gain” is statistically insignificant when compared to the engine HP..

Their test used a 226HP engine so ½ HP is .22% supposed increase and that is ONLY with their COMPLETE INTAKE KIT which deletes the OEM filter box…

Keeping in mind that the dyno chart shown is for the K&N INTAKE KIT, not just the filter as a drop in.

Statistically the “gains” are non existent unless you are planning to run 6,000-6,200 RPMs, I don’t drive in that RPM range.. In fact my vehicles now days at 70 MPH are turning 2200 RPM and when towing I rarely see anything above 3,000 RPM and when it is above 3,000 RPMs it was only for seconds and no more than 4,000 RPM and that is pulling 9%-11% grades with 6,500 lbs of trailer and cargo..

As far as mileage “improvements” even K&N backpedals and waffles on that too.. Buried deep in their website is this note..

K&N WAFFLES ON FUEL ECONOMY

“Fuel Economy
Fuel economy testing and mileage claims are a tricky business. Just ask the EPA, whose website states, “EPA’s fuel economy estimates are designed to allow consumers to comparison shop. Your fuel economy will almost certainly vary from EPA’s fuel economy rating. This is based on a number of factors, such as weather, road conditions, your driving and maintenance habits, and your use of air conditioning.” A lot of exaggerated claims are made in the marketplace by products claiming to improve gas mileage. K&N makes no general fuel economy claims, however we encourage you to try our air filter for yourself. Keeping air filter restriction as low as possible can be an important tool, among others, for maintaining high mileage. “

In other words simply REGULARLY CHECKING AND REPLACING a dirty paper filter with new NEW PAPER filter will do the same thing AT LESS COST..


If this type of filter was so good, the OEMS WOULD be making part of the OEM assembly since it would be a very CHEAP way to “gain” mileage and HP.. But they DON’T since there IS NO GAINS to be had.

As far as those dyno charts that K&N touts, THEY OWN THE TEST FACILITY for those tests therefore they ARE NOT INDEPENDENT therefore NOT RELIABLE. ANYONE CAN SKEW the dyno tests if they like to show a product as better..

You would rather believe some artificial inflated marketing claims..

A few years back a group of motorists on a forum actually PAID to test not only K&N filters but OTHER aftermarket filters.. K&N filter FAILED the dust test, while K&N showed it flowed better when clean, it also clogged FASTER but yet allowed MORE DUST to get through.

Even though a K&N might “flow” more air, more air flow DOES NOT always result in more power. If it was that simple the OEMs WOULD have saved millions in research and development costs and tossed a K&N on the vehicles from the factory..

INDEPENDENT AIR FILTER TESTING

The following is a quote from Arlen.

(Arlen) SPICER wrote,
“Now that I am not doing the tests and my objectivity is not necessary, let me explain my motivation. The reason I started this crusade was that I was seeing people spend a lot of money on aftermarket filters based on the word of a salesperson or based on the misleading, incomplete or outright deceiving information printed on boxes and in sales literature. Gentlemen and Ladies, Marketing and the lure of profit is VERY POWERFUL! It is amazing how many people believe that better airflow = more power! Unless you have modifications out the wazoo, a more porous filter will just dirty your oil! Some will say " I have used aftermarket brand X for XXX # years with no problems. The PROBLEM is you spent a chunk of ching on a product that not only DID NOT increase your horsepower, but also let in a lot of dirt while doing it! Now how much is a lot? ANY MORE THAN NECESSARY is TOO MUCH!

Others are persuaded by the claims of aftermarket manufacturers that their filters filter dirt "better than any other filter on the market." Sounds very enticing. To small timers like you and me, spending $1500 to test a filter sounds like a lot. But if you were a filter manufacturer and you believed your filter could filter dirt better than any other media on the market, wouldn't you want to prove it? Guess what. Test your filter vs. the OE paper. It will cost you $3000 and for that price you will have the data that you can use in your advertisements. Your investment will be returned a thousand fold! EASIER than shooting fish in a barrel! So why don't these manufacturers do this? Hmmm? Probably not because they would feel guilty about taking more market share.

Now I am not saying that ALL aftermarket filters are useless. A paper filter does not do well if directly wetted or muddy. It may collapse. This is why many off-road filters are foam. It is a compromise between filtering efficiency and protection from a collapsed filter. Now how many of our trucks collapse their filters from mud and water? However, if a filter is using "better airflow" as their marketing tool, remember this....Does it flow better? At very high airflow volumes, probably. BUT, Our trucks CAN'T flow that much air unless super-modified, so what is the point? The stock filter will flow MORE THAN ENOUGH AIR to give you ALL THE HORSEPOWER the engine has to give. And this remains true until the filter is dirty enough to trip the air filter life indicator. At that point performance will decline somewhat. Replace the filter and get on with it.

Hopefully the results of this test will do 2 things. Shed some light on the misleading marketing claims of some aftermarket manufacturers and/or give us new insight on products already on the market that are superior to our OE filter. I stand for truth and will eat my words publicly if my statements prove wrong. I appreciate all of the help and support that you members have offered in this project. It would simply be impossible without your help. A huge thanks to Ken at Testand for his willingness to take on this project. I would be spinning my wheels from here to eternity without his help… SPICER”

Our thanks to Arlen and Ken for making the test happen and providing the valuable test results for the benefit of all.

[Okie1]

Same here. From personal experience.....

ib516 wrote:
In my direct experience (on a turbo diesel engine) they let more fine dust through than the stock paper filter.

Whether or not you use one is up to you. I will never use one again.

[Fast_Mopar]

NinerBikes wrote:
In terms of units sold, they are mouse nuts, and non existent in the OEM industry.

Mouse nuts. Great visual.

[BenK]

Burbman...I understand it both from the boy racer and engineering sides...IMHO

Boy racer will 'think' better from the noise and will be WOT often to actually
use a lower PSI drop...but the potential increased wear will then reduce the
power output

All computer controlled (ECU's) has full power mode with many shades of grey
down to limp mode to completely shut down

Those levels of power has many attributes and most based on temp
preset limits. Most of those presets are weighted towards SMOG and MPG
while POWER MODE of lesser priority than both of them.

Anyone notice how well their ECU controlled vehicle run stronger when
in open loop? Once it comes up to temp and the ECU's goes into closed
loop control...less power because it is 'dirty' for SMOG in open loop
and when in closed loop it tries to keep it at a pure stoichiometric
ratios.

The why of tuners requiring a 160* F thermostat, but the OEMs have
fixed that with some pretty complicated thermostats and no longer
have 160's for after market folks. Ditto the need or requirement
for higher octane for tuners

Most folks have NOT experienced big blocks and the amounts of heat rejected

I have a pretty high pain threshold, but can NOT keep my hand in the engine bay
air flow when it is up to temp. Painful

There are many laws of physic's in play and again, temperature a key ingredient

Anyone wonder why turbo's have intercoolers? That is the exact laws of physics
in wanting cold air intake. Why the OEMs now plumb to ingest outside of the
engine bay. That the after market designs generally do NOT ingest ambient air
but engine bay air (heated). Mainly because folks do not want to, nor know HOW2
cut holes in their vehicle's sheetmetal

[NinerBikes]

BurbMan wrote:

If I am used car shopping and see a K&N filter installed it's a deal breaker. No telling what other fugazy mods and abuse the vehicle has suffered.

When I was in the market for a used car, like you, this was a dealbreaker. I saw it as a sign of a rookie move. May as well be buying a used car from a teenage boy, it has abuse written all over it, the owner had to find out, by thrashing, how much more flow they got for their money. The butt dyno lies, and it takes a lot of runs to convince them one spent their money wisely.