Need Some Advice on Used TT Purchase

[Hippilongstocki]

Hello All!

I'm new to this forum--but knew I could come here and get some solid advice for purchasing a used TT. We're towing with a 2005 Armada (9100 lbs), but in crunching the real numbers---I think we're looking at something with a dry weight of around 6000-6300, tops.

Here's what we're looking for:

1. We've got 3 girls (7, 3, and 1.5), so we're looking for something with a separate bunkhouse.

2. We need something with a living room slide for sure.

3. We're thinking about 30'-32' long for the space we need.

4. We are looking for something USED. Price range is about $15-20K.

We'll be traveling in this quite frequently, so any help is appreciated--as well as any tips on what to look for when buying. We've got a little over a month before we need to purchase.

Any veteran tips will help immensely--because I guarantee there are things I'm missing in the purchasing process.

Thanks Again!
--Ryan

[camp-n-family]

I still think you're confused on what some of the weights mean. GCWR is the gross combined weight rating. It means the max weight of the tow vehicle and the trailer together. The max weight of your Armada (GVWR) is 6800lbs so if you loaded it to the max then the trailer can weigh no more than 7800lbs. (14,600 - 6800 = 7800) Thats assuming you can still stay within your payload, axle and tire ratings as well which I think we proved you won't be able to with a trailer that heavy.

A 7800lbs trailer will have a tongue weight over 1000lbs. That weight counts towards your Armadas' payload rating (1400lbs) leaving you only 400lbs for your passengers and any stuff you carry in the truck.

If you really need a trailer that big you'll need a bigger tow vehicle.

There are a lot of numbers to be concerned with when towing. Some more important than others. You need to be concerned with the Armadas payload the most as it will max out well before reaching any other limit. Next is the trailers tongue weight, because it counts directly towards your payload.

Let's fix the numbers from your previous post.

Cargo in the Armada itself can not go over 1421 lbs.
Vehicle Weight: 6800(GVWR)
Occupants: 575 (counts towards payload)
Car Seats: 50 (counts towards payload)
Extra: 100 (counts towards payload)

Total = 725lbs of weight added to the truck
subtract that from max payload of 1421lbs = 696lbs (1421-725)
subtract another 75lbs for the weight of the WD hitch you need to tow with(696-75) = 621lbs

621lbs is what is left of payload. That is the maximum amount of weight that the truck can still carry before reaching its GVWR (6800lbs). The portion of the trailers weight that is carried by the tongue is added to the truck and counts towards the payload. Therefore the tongue weight of the loaded trailer cannot weigh more than 621lbs. A properly balanced trailer has about 13% of its weight carried by the tongue. So for example a 4800lbs trailer at 13% would have a tongue weight of 624lbs

In this case your looking at a trailer that weighs no more than 4800lbs loaded up. If you pack 800lbs worth of stuff into it (not hard for a family of 5) would mean the trailer weighs 4000lbs empty. Dry weight would be even less since it doesn't include options, propane, batteries etc.

To be safe and stay within limits you need a trailer that is under 4000lbs dry weight and under 5000lbs loaded otherwise you need a tow vehicle with more available payload (think 3/4ton truck or SUV)

[gmw_photos]

I think you'll be fine if you stay down on the weight.
I pull a Rockwood 2701ss ultra lite that is 31' over all length. It weighs in at 5820lbs loaded with all my camping gear (chairs tables,grills supplies) no food or personal stuff."

By the way our trailer has a tongue wt if 660lbs.
stay within these type of limits you should do fine. just my 2cents.....snip.....


I think we found one! It's a 2007 Rockwood Ultralite (it's the 33'). We've got the Tow Package, so the GCWR is about 14,600. We should be able to stay under that--maybe not under 10% though). It'll be close---but we need every bit of space in that thing. The price is perfect on it, too.

Some numbers there do not sound correct to me. A tongue weight of 660 pounds on a trailer of over 5800 pounds is 8.8%.
A more typical travel trailer tongue weight "in the real world" is closer to ( and desirable to be ) 12 to 15%.
A big, high walled, long trailer with under 9% tongue sounds like a prescription for sway to me.
I go back to my earlier post in this thread: "....it's your family..."

[spadoctor]

Tow ratings are done with FLAT payloads like a utility trailer and sheets of steel. The rating DOES NOT take into account wind resistance....side wind (sway)...or stopping!!!!. I will bet if you buy anything close to what you just stated you are going to...regret it....and have one hell of a time trying to control it. I tow with a Ford Excursion with a V10 and there are those on here that swear you need to alter it to tow properly. To be BLUNT....your vehicle was NEVER intended to do what you are looking to do. You DO NOT have enough vehicle for anything over 25 foot and 5000 pounds...MAXIMUM. This is from someone that has been towing since the early 80's and towed well over 250,000 miles. You wanted replys from those with experience....now LISTEN

[nomad297]

I just don't think he gets it.

[Hippilongstocki]

kv800t wrote:
I think you'll be fine if you stay down on the weight.
I pull a Rockwood 2701ss ultra lite that is 31' over all length. It weighs in at 5820lbs loaded with all my camping gear (chairs tables,grills supplies) no food or personal stuff."

By the way our trailer has a tongue wt if 660lbs.
stay within these type of limits you should do fine. just my 2cents.

I think we found one! It's a 2007 Rockwood Ultralite (it's the 33'). We've got the Tow Package, so the GCWR is about 14,600. We should be able to stay under that--maybe not under 10% though). It'll be close---but we need every bit of space in that thing. The price is perfect on it, too.

[TnCamperMama]

Hi OP. I have some friends in your exact situation and looking for the same thing, only their tow veh is an 09 Expedition. They DID find what they were looking for, except they had to compromise on having a slide out b/c of weight. They found an older Springdale BH in their tight budget of under 8k. IDK anything about the technical aspects, as we didn't have to worry about tow capacity with our truck. I just want to assure you your camper IS OUT THERE. Best of luck!

[camp-n-family]

Cargo in the Armada itself can not go over 1421 lbs.

Vehicle Weight: 6800
Occupants: 575
Car Seats: 50
Extra: 100 (Tops)

Sorry, just noticed your payload of 1421lbs. From this you need to subtract 575, 50 and 100lbs leaving you 696lbs of payload left. That is the most that the hitch and trailer tongue weight can weigh and still stay within your Armadas GVWR(6800lbs)

If the WD hitch weighs 75lbs then you have 621lbs for the loaded tongue weight. Assuming the average 13% that would get you a trailer around 5000lbs LOADED weight.

Don't be discouraged as there are still plenty of trailers out there in that weight range that will meet your needs.

[kv800t]

I think you'll be fine if you stay down on the weight.
I pull a Rockwood 2701ss ultra lite that is 31' over all length. It weighs in at 5820lbs loaded with all my camping gear (chairs tables,grills supplies) no food or personal stuff. Checked on cat scales. Empty wt 4951. as shipped 5369 hook to truck 5820. It has all the things you mentioned,slide,bunks,room and low weight. I pull it with a 1/2 ton truck with no problems. You would do your self a favor to try to find a ultra lite trailer such as mine. My truck has a tow rating of 9600lbs. and it's very doable. I would not want much more weight or length.

By the way our trailer has a tongue wt if 660lbs.
stay within these type of limits you should do fine. just my 2cents.

[camp-n-family]

So--

Cargo in the Armada itself can not go over 1421 lbs.

Vehicle Weight: 6800
Occupants: 575
Car Seats: 50
Extra: 100 (Tops)

Weight: 7525


GAWR Front is 3200 lbs
GAWR Read is 4200 lbs
GCVW: 14,600

Left: 7,075 - 15% = 6,014

20 lbs fresh water (8 x 20)= 160
Clothes/Food/Gear=250 lbs

Left: 5,604

That sounds about where I actually SHOULD be. Am I looking at it right?

No, you're looking at it wrong. You need to look at the numbers for your tow vehicle first. Forget about the trailer.

What is your Armadas payload rating? You'll find it on the sticker on the drivers door jamb. The payload is simply the amount of weight the vehicle can carry up to its max GVWR. It includes passengers, gear, hitch, and tongue weight added to the truck. Or to put it another way it is the GVWR minus the empty (curb) weight.

Your GVWR is 6800lbs. From the internet the curb weights seem to average around 5100lbs. So your payload would be in the neighborhood of 1700lbs. (6800 - 5100) but check your sticker.

From the 1700lbs in this example you'll need to subtract the weight of any people and stuff you will carry in the truck while travelling. So take off 575lbs, 50lbs and 100lbs leaving you 875lbs. Factor in another 75lbs for the weight of the hitch and you have 800lbs left over. That is what is left for the tongue weight of the trailer.

Now you can consider the trailer. You mentioned earlier that the dealer said tongue weight is included in the trailer weight. If the trailer was not hooked up and was sitting on a scale alone then the tongue weight is included. However, once you hook the trailer to your truck and raise the jack then a percentage of the trailers weight is now being carried by your Armada. How much varies for every trailer and how it's loaded. The average for stable towing tends to be around 13% of the trailers LOADED weight. Forget the dry weights because you will never tow it empty.

A trailer that weighed 6100lbs (loaded) would have a tongue weight around 800lbs assuming the 13% average. The average family will add 800-1200lbs worth of stuff to their trailer. To be safe I would look for a trailer that was around 5000lbs or less delivered weight (not dry)

Again these are hypothetical numbers. Only way to know for sure is to load up and hit the scales. If you're not able to then you can estimate your weights or some people will use 13% of the trailers max GVWR as an estimate. If you're safe with the tongue at the trailers heaviest allowable then you will be safe at any weight under that. I don't personally because I will never load it anywhere near my GVWR so why account for weight I will never take.

[APT]

Heavy Metal Doctor wrote:

I thought the whole purpose of weight distribution hitch was to change the load characteristic when your tongue weight goes over the rated tongue weight capacity of the vehicle. In this case, the Armada can carry 900 lb tongue weight - if you have more tongue weight than that, then you must use a WDH to spread that 1500lbs out over the whole TV.....maybe I don't get it???....am I crazy or what?

You have the right concept, but the limits are too high. The weight carrying rating of the receivers for most half tons is in the 500-600 pound range. Anything more than that requires a WDH which puts the limits in the 850-1150 pound range. The Armada limit with WDH is likely 910 pounds. Note my receiver limits:



These numbers are independent of the available rear axle load and payload.

[Heavy_Metal_Doc]

Gdetrailer wrote:
Umm.. no that isn't the way it works..

You simply just can't put 1500 lbs on a vehicle and hitch which specifically states something like 900 lbs as the max weight.

Take a step back..

The tow rating of the OPs vehicle my be listed as 900 lbs tongue AND 9100 lbs trailer weight. If you look closely the manufacturer is stretching the truth by using the bottom most tongue weight of 10%. In reality most folks are going to WANT to have a hitch weight GREATER than 10% in order take make the towing more stabil...

Putting 15% on the tongue and still pulling a trailer at 9100 lbs will put 1300 lbs on the tongue and that most likely will be over the allowable cargo weight of the vehicle.

To play it safe one must reduce the WEIGHT of the trailer in order to allow for up to 15% tongue weight so you don't go over the cargo weight...

You need to subtract the curb weight of said tow vehicle from the GVWR and that will give you the max cargo weight.

Then you subtract your passenger and gear weight from the cargo weight the left over is the MAX you have for your tongue weight.

The you must make sure you don't exceed your vehicles axle ratings..

Clear as mud?

Yeah, I guess I was thinking more in terms of my own TV (a 3500 SRW) -- I know it stated a max tongue weight around 900 or so BUT it also said to add class 4 WDH hitch to go higher weight. The Armada probably doesn't offer that option since it has lighter axles to carry whatever weight you put on - be it hitch weight or cargo - you'll get maxxed out pretty quickly and be over axle weights.

In fact - a little quick web searching before I hit the POST button - revealed this on the Armada - right from Nissan:

"When towing at or near Maximum Trailer Weight, the allowable vehicle cargo and/or number of passengers is reduced because it is necessary to stay below the Gross Combined Weight Rating and the Gross Axle Weight Rating. If the vehicle has cargo and passengers, the allowable Maximum Trailer Weight is reduced. See your Towing Guide and owner’s manual for proper use."

[Hippilongstocki]

So--

Cargo in the Armada itself can not go over 1421 lbs.

Vehicle Weight: 6800
Occupants: 575
Car Seats: 50
Extra: 100 (Tops)

Weight: 7525


GAWR Front is 3200 lbs
GAWR Read is 4200 lbs
GCVW: 14,600

Left: 7,075 - 15% = 6,014

20 lbs fresh water (8 x 20)= 160
Clothes/Food/Gear=250 lbs

Left: 5,604

That sounds about where I actually SHOULD be. Am I looking at it right?

[Gdetrailer]

Heavy Metal Doctor wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

The problem here is in order to tow a max of 9100 lbs you would have a min of 10% of the tongue weight which is 910 lbs. 10% is the BOTTOM most spec for tongue weight, ideally 12%-15% is where you should be..

15% of 9100 lbs is 1,365 which puts you well over the allowed hitch weight!

To get 15% hitch weight you would HAVE to have an absolute MAX trailer weight of 6000 lbs! which would get you right at 900 lb mark.

BUT the 900-910 hitch rating is only good IF your vehicle is equipped with the OPTIONAL TOW PACKAGE.

I thought the whole purpose of weight distribution hitch was to change the load characteristic when your tongue weight goes over the rated tongue weight capacity of the vehicle. In this case, the Armada can carry 900 lb tongue weight - if you have more tongue weight than that, then you must use a WDH to spread that 1500lbs out over the whole TV.....maybe I don't get it???....am I crazy or what?

:h

Umm.. no that isn't the way it works..

You simply just can't put 1500 lbs on a vehicle and hitch which specifically states something like 900 lbs as the max weight.

Take a step back..

The tow rating of the OPs vehicle my be listed as 900 lbs tongue AND 9100 lbs trailer weight. If you look closely the manufacturer is stretching the truth by using the bottom most tongue weight of 10%. In reality most folks are going to WANT to have a hitch weight GREATER than 10% in order take make the towing more stabil...

Putting 15% on the tongue and still pulling a trailer at 9100 lbs will put 1300 lbs on the tongue and that most likely will be over the allowable cargo weight of the vehicle.

To play it safe one must reduce the WEIGHT of the trailer in order to allow for up to 15% tongue weight so you don't go over the cargo weight...

You need to subtract the curb weight of said tow vehicle from the GVWR and that will give you the max cargo weight.

Then you subtract your passenger and gear weight from the cargo weight the left over is the MAX you have for your tongue weight.

The you must make sure you don't exceed your vehicles axle ratings..

Clear as mud?

[scbwr]

OK..here's what I can add. I have a 5.7 Toyota Tundra which is a 1/2 ton pickup rated to tow 10,000 lbs. While I know the truck could technically do it, I wouldn't want to be towing that weight on a regular basis. When I bought the Tundra, I had a 29' Sunline TT, and loaded with gear, it was over 8K. The Tundra pulled it ok, but I'm not sure I would have wanted to take the rig over the Rocky Mountains. As planned, after getting the Tundra, we downsized to a smaller (26'9") trailer that weighed less. Our Winnebago Minnie 2201DS has a dry weight of just under 5K. After loading it with gear (no food, no clothing) and just a little water in the fresh water tank, it weighed 6,104 lbs. when I took it to the scales. With the lighter weight, Tundra pulls it much better, and I plan to take this rig over the Rockies.

IMHO (and that's all it is!), it's much better and safer to be 10 to 20 per cent below the maximum tow rating. By doing so, you avoid stressing engine and transmission, and your braking performance will be much safer.

My suggestion for the OP is to look at some hybrid units that will give you plenty of sleeping space, your own bath/shower and a galley. On the plus side, your kids will get a better sense of camping....hearing natures sounds at night, easily looking up at the stars while in bed, etc. While our two sons were growing up, we had popup tent campers and we did a lot of traveling and camping and I still miss sleeping under canvas.

If you want a "camping cabin on wheels", trade in the Armada for a 3/4 ton truck and then you will be able to easily tow a large trailer with the bunkroom and slideouts. If you do that with the Armada, you will more than likely find out after the fact that while you can tow a larger trailer, it won't be fun nor leave you with a sense of safe towing.

In any event, I hope you get a rig soon and hit the road because you will start making so many memories that will still be with you long after the kids have grown up and are on their own!