New Ford Expedition with V6

[travelnman]

Anyone towed with the new Ford Expedition with the V6. Would
really like to hear how well things are going. Can that
6 cylinder actually pull a seven or eight thousand lb TT. I find
it almost impossible to believe that there would be enough torque
to do the job but bravo to Ford if they accomplished this. Ratings
are good so far but before I put down over sixty grand I would
like to get some advice good or bad. Right now I'm pulling a
28 foot KEYSTONE Springdale with UVW of 6,200lbs using a 2004
Burbon 3.73 axel and 5.3 liter. It does OK but those hills in
Branson are a challenge so I have been exploring new vehicles.
My burbon only has 290hp but Ford claims 365 out of this new six.
That is some engineering but I'm wondering if the claims are
true or they have some new way of determining HP.

[brulaz]

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

brulaz wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

...
I would think they would lean from the 6.5 timing chain issues not to run a HPFP with a chain. My chain was junk at 130K and my HD chain was only about a foot long. Nothing like the mile long chain like they run on these EB's. No wonder they are having stretch problems. :S And guess what drives the new Ecodiesel pump? :E
...

Suspect it's pretty hard to get away from chains in any V engine these days. IIRC even the new Cummmins 5L V8 diesel has four, and the two cam chains are quite long.

But even poorly engineered short chain systems in an I4 diesel can be a problem, as I found out with my 2005 Passat TDI. There the chain guides of the oil pump chain would wear down making for lots of chain slop and eventual failure. VW fixed it by providing a drop in geared replacement.

I don't know, what's wrong with a push rod engine? Easy to go with a gear to gear. Why do we have to go with OHC and mile long streeeeeeeecheeee chains? V8 push rods engines still dominate in racing and towing alike.

I just don't like chains. Too many problems in my life with them. My new engine is a push rod belt drive cam. I hope I won't regret that either. :E

Understood. And agree.

But all engines, even the newer push rod engines, while less chains/belts, are getting pretty complicated: there's the cylinder de-activation in the GM's Ecotec3 line using oil pressure, CVVT, and it seems that all new engines are direct injection now-a-days with the issues that could arise there.

Just not sure that GM's 5.3L or 6.2L Ecotec3 with all these new features, will be any more or less reliable in the long run than Ford's 3.5L Ecoboost with its turbo, intercooler and chains.

Only time will tell, I guess.

[BenK]

Turtle...me too...think bean counter management dictated a 'cost' to fix the
dew point issue (rain inside the inter-cooler)

Similar to what am finding happened inside of VW...CEO who just quit saying not his
fault...it is his fault

A few years ago, he won an award for excellence in management when he 'dictated'
that engineering reduce SMOG and increase MPG...so he thought just by edict, he
could do it again a few years later...

His engineering did squeeze a few more drops of blood out their turnip, but no
more this time...so in that type of management atmosphere...they resorted to
cheating to meet his unreasonable demands...

Not just VW nor Ford...*ALL* large OEMs who have pure business school management
types...only manage to their bottom line and do *NOT* manage their product...

So many times...these types of decisions (penny wise, pound foolish) ends up
costing more than they tried to save...

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

brulaz wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

...
I would think they would lean from the 6.5 timing chain issues not to run a HPFP with a chain. My chain was junk at 130K and my HD chain was only about a foot long. Nothing like the mile long chain like they run on these EB's. No wonder they are having stretch problems. :S And guess what drives the new Ecodiesel pump? :E
...

Suspect it's pretty hard to get away from chains in any V engine these days. IIRC even the new Cummmins 5L V8 diesel has four, and the two cam chains are quite long.

But even poorly engineered short chain systems in an I4 diesel can be a problem, as I found out with my 2005 Passat TDI. There the chain guides of the oil pump chain would wear down making for lots of chain slop and eventual failure. VW fixed it by providing a drop in geared replacement.

I don't know, what's wrong with a push rod engine? Easy to go with a gear to gear. Why do we have to go with OHC and mile long streeeeeeeecheeee chains? V8 push rods engines still dominate in racing and towing alike.

I just don't like chains. Too many problems in my life with them. My new engine is a push rod belt drive cam. I hope I won't regret that either. :E

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

BenK wrote:
Thank you Turtle...didn't know they blocked off the intercooler in an effort to
cure the dew point issue

Dumb @$s band-aide that created other problems and betcha did NOT solve what they
were trying to fix

Like that kid FordTechMukoloco

{edit}FordTechMakuloco...

I agree with you Ben. I too like the kid. He tells it like it is.

Ford designs a really nice intercooler for this engine and then block 1/4 of it off. Then decide that was not enough so they block half of it off. WTH? Really? Talk about Mickey Mouse! And then Ford did not come up with a permanent fix for the chain issue until mid of this year. :S And then they come up with a carbon fix and find out it takes the turbo's out. Talk about OOPS!

I would bet it was not the engineering staff that wanted this. I would put money it was the bean counters. :M

I have a love/hate relationship with this engine. I love turbo's and I really like the idea of this engine. But the problems just turn me off and the expense terrifies me!

[AlmostAnOldGuy]

I think folks should be aware that this engine, relatively new to the scene, has some issue to be aware of, but nothing that seems too traumatic. Of the many owners of EcoBoosts on this forum I have seen a few folks who experienced the misfire due to condensation with the earlier models. If I recall correctly all of these were successfully addressed by the Ford dealer. I believe we should be pretty much in the clear on that one. It gets damp on occasion here in Oregon and with my late model 2012 (ordered June 2012) I have never experienced the issue.

It is my understanding that direct injection engines (excluding Toyota who injects some fuel upstream) are going to be susceptible to carbon buildup on the intake valves. This may be influenced by how the engine is operated (lots of short trips with a cold engine vs. longer trips under load with warmer temps). When I am clear of my extended warranty period I will be installing a catch can which I believe should address this. Low cost and simple.

As far as the timing chain goes I will have to wait and see. If it becomes an issue before 80k miles looks like Ford fixes it no charge. If it becomes as issue after 80k then I guess I will pony up for a 12 hour + parts repair. If I do that once for the life of the vehicle I am not overly concerned.

So to the OP I would say this is a more complex engine than the 5.3l Chevy. It also provides more power, particularly more torque and lower rpm which make for a very nice towing experience. It also maintains the power better at altitude. If I were making the choice I would choose the Ford 3.5 over the Chevy 5.3 for towing. Now if we were comparing to the Chevy 6.2 that might be a different story, however the 6.2 is not available in the Suburban.

As noted in prior post make sure you check out your payload, rear axle rating and hitch rating whichever vehicle you go with.

Good luck to you,
Stu

[brulaz]

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

...
I would think they would lean from the 6.5 timing chain issues not to run a HPFP with a chain. My chain was junk at 130K and my HD chain was only about a foot long. Nothing like the mile long chain like they run on these EB's. No wonder they are having stretch problems. :S And guess what drives the new Ecodiesel pump? :E
...

Suspect it's pretty hard to get away from chains in any V engine these days. IIRC even the new Cummmins 5L V8 diesel has four, and the two cam chains are quite long.

But even poorly engineered short chain systems in an I4 diesel can be a problem, as I found out with my 2005 Passat TDI. There the chain guides of the oil pump chain would wear down making for lots of chain slop and eventual failure. VW fixed it by providing a drop in geared replacement.

[APT]

The 3.5L Ecoboost has been used in the F-150 since 2011 and proven to comfortably tow RVs up to 10k pounds with the proper equipment and gearing. However, the 2015+ Expedition RV towing limit will be lower than the 9k-ish tow rating due to payload and receiver limits. I'd stick to around 6k dry, which will be closer to 7k loaded with 900 pounds of loaded TW. This should leave you around 500 pounds of payload for people and cargo inside. If your family weighs more than that, you'll be exceeding the GVWR of the Expy.

[BenK]

Thank you Turtle...didn't know they blocked off the intercooler in an effort to
cure the dew point issue

Dumb @$s band-aide that created other problems and betcha did NOT solve what they
were trying to fix

Like that kid FordTechMukoloco

{edit}FordTechMakuloco...

[Grit_dog]

Presume the op is talking about an Ecoboost 6 unless the Expys come with a base v6.
Talking Eco it will tow like a boss.
One of my superintendents tugged a 30+' car hauler to AK with his new ram dually. While up there he dumped that and his wife's rig for a new Eco expedition. Towed that big trailer back to GA with a couple Harley's and some furniture and said he had no problem running it the whole way.

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

Fordlover wrote:
Interesting how times have changed 5 years ago an ecoboost thread would end up with half the replies warning of imminent ecokaboom, with slaughtered f-150's lining the shoulders of interstates all over this country.

Now we have ecoboost threads saying, they tow in altitude great, and generally perform as advertised, though without the eco part of the equation while towing or hot rodding. I guess those who predicted massive failures got tired of waiting...

I don't know what you mean by "massive failure" but it's common knowledge that these engine had and have some serious problems.
And before anybody starts, this from a FORD tech, not from me. I would think they would lean from the 6.5 timing chain issues not to run a HPFP with a chain. My chain was junk at 130K and my HD chain was only about a foot long. Nothing like the mile long chain like they run on these EB's. No wonder they are having stretch problems. :S And guess what drives the new Ecodiesel pump? :E

As a member liked to say on here: "some people like to whistle past he cemetery." :B

Timing chain issues.

Timing chain issues sound.

Valve carbon problems, part 1

Valve carbon problems, part 2

Misfire issues Pick your TSB on this one. There are many! Lipstick on a pig as my tech friends call it.

Do they pull good? Hell ya they do! They should, there're running 7 liters of air through them!

[Fordlover]

Interesting how times have changed 5 years ago an ecoboost thread would end up with half the replies warning of imminent ecokaboom, with slaughtered f-150's lining the shoulders of interstates all over this country.

Now we have ecoboost threads saying, they tow in altitude great, and generally perform as advertised, though without the eco part of the equation while towing or hot rodding. I guess those who predicted massive failures got tired of waiting...

For OP, I think you've gotten some really solid advice in this thread, Best of luck with whatever you decide.

[BenK]

brulaz wrote:
snip....

I dunno how Ford got the peak torque down so low with the 3.5L (think all the smaller Ecoboosts have peak torque at 3000 or higher rpms). But it does make the engine more diesel-like in behaviour.

Forced fed...meaning in this case turbo, but supercharged very similar
in how the 'small' displacement behaves

IIRC, Turtle said around 25PSI...meaning that 3.5L V6 has ~7L or more
amounts of air/fuel stuffed into it. Making it behave like a big block V8...as
it does have similar amounts of per cylinder air/fuel charge at ~25PSI
BEFORE the compression stroke

There are many, many issues us boy racers used to have to engineer
around to make it last and seems like Ford had addressed most of them.
I'm still not sold on it yet...telling for me is when rebuild history
rolls in.

The GM is NA (naturally aspired) and behaves like a traditional V8
but has cylinder deactivation for those times less HP is needed.

Both choices in direction (forced fed or not) will have different
torque/HP curves and with today's close ratio automatics...levels
that playing field.

Either will suffice and down to personal choice on badging, model, etc

[tragusa3]

I towed 4k pounds for a 6k mile trip with mine. It was an impressive trip from a tow vehicle perspective. Through several passes in the rockies, and nothing was a challenge.

I now have a trailer at about 7k loaded. It does downshift a little. If you're after that "towing like it isn't there" experience, I would say the weight limit for that feeling is somewhere between 4k and 7k.

What I enjoy most, is being at low rpm while towing. I've towed with older and modern V8's and none gave the "relaxed" feeling of the EB.

[brulaz]

Like others have said, all that low-rpm torque and HP is what makes the 3.5L V6 EcoBoost such a great tow engine.

That link BenK posted shows the EcoBoost 3.5L with 420 ft-lbs at 2500rpm and the Chevy 5.3L with 383 ft-lbs at 4100rpm. Quite a difference in rpms.

I dunno how Ford got the peak torque down so low with the 3.5L (think all the smaller Ecoboosts have peak torque at 3000 or higher rpms). But it does make the engine more diesel-like in behaviour.

Still, if you like higher-revving V8's then Chevy's 5.3L should also be fine.

And the 3.5L EcoBoost has been available in different forms since ... 2010?
So it's been around for a while. Not exactly new. It's been pulling my 8100# trailer with ease for 22K miles so far.