Observation on Dealer “Service Packages”

[Ron3rd]

The wife has a 2 year old Chevy Traverse that she really likes and we always have the oil changed at the purchasing dealer, who we really like too. I’ve always changed my own oil but at $38.95 for 5 qts of Dexos Spec Oil, Filter, Tire Rotation with reset on the tire sensors with a scanner (which I can’t do), I quickly discovered I can’t buy the materials for that price and rotating tires is always a hassle so I just let them do it.
My theory on maintenance to keep the warranty in effect is to do all the REQUIRED maintenance in the owner’s manual. So here’s my point;
The last time I was in for the oil change, the Service Writer said, “Oh!, your overdue for your 15,000 mile service. (There is no “15,000 mile service in owner’s manual BTW).
So I said, “How much and what’s included”? He said, “$329.00 and we change the oil, clean the throttle body, change the air filter, and clean and adjust the brakes”. I said, “I’ll pass, just change the oil”. He said, “OK, but if there’s a warranty issue and you did not perform required maintenance, your warranty claim could be denied”. I said, “That’s fine, just change the oil”.
Here’s my reasoning:

1. Nowhere in the owner’s manual is cleaning the throttle body required at at ANY interval. Yes, cleaning the throttle body is sometimes required. For instance on the older Toyotas, you can start to get a rough idle is the throttle body needs cleaning and this is about a 10 job, done it many times myself. The wife’s Travers runs like new, so why pay to clean the throttle body now?

2. The Traverse is 4-wheel Disc brakes. Nowhere in the owner’s manual does it say, “clean and adjust”. I’ve worked on Disc Brakes for over 35 years and don’t know how you can “adjust them”.

3. The manual calls for “inspecting” the Air Filter at about 20,000 miles and clean or replace as necessary. I popped in a Wix Air Filter for about $15.00.

4. Oil and Filter Change: Yep, that’s required; see $38.95 above.

5. Aside from Oil and any required filters, there’s virtually no major maintenance required on the Travers until 100,000 miles.

6. Conclusion: I’m not saying the Dealer is trying to rip anyone off. I stick religiously to the “required” maintenance as set forth by GM and don’t pay for expensive or unnecessary add-ones that merely build profit for the dealer.

Just my 2 cents.

[brulaz]

Skid Row Joe wrote:

...
Sometimes the dealer knows best - I would listen to John - he was brought-up in the car business for over 40+ years.

OK, sure, sometimes the dealer knows best. But with all the other bogus maintenance some are trying to put on you, it's hard to determine when they're providing good advice.

But actually I've sampled most of the local dealers and have had pretty good experiences. The main problem has been a few people at the service desk; some act as if they're working on commission and really don't know much about the truck, others are fine. And there was one service manager who insisted that my new LT tires be run at 35psi, the pressure listed on the yellow sticker for the original P rated tires. 35psi put them at a lower weight rating than the original tires and the truck's GAWRs.

As for extended oil service intervals, yes, there were early mistakes when first introduced and sludged engines as a result. Haven't heard of any issues recently though. My daughter's 2005 Passat TDI (150-200K miles? on the odo) is still running smoothly with 10,000 mile (16K km) synthetic oil changes.

No idea whether Ford's got the oil maint intervals right for the EcoB, but I always ask for full synthetic just because it didn't seem right paying so little $$ for maintenance on the truck.

As for tranny fluid changes, I just follow Ford's recommendations there too. Haven't heard of any good reasons not to. But I did not with the Passat. VW said that tranny was supposed to last a lifetime with NO fluid/filter changes. Many of us disagreed.

So ya, the manufacturer can get things wrong sometimes, and the dealers and their staff can get things wrong too and try to over-sell maintenance. The internet helps us sort these things out. You just need to take all advice, internet, dealer, manufacturer, "with a grain of salt".

[Skid_Row_Joe]

JALLEN4 wrote:

brulaz wrote:

JALLEN4 wrote:

...
The modern vehicle is better built and does require less maintenance.
...
Many dealers do suggest more frequent maintenance intervals than the factory manual. This is simply because they see first hand the problems encountered when the service intervals are lengthened by the manufacturer in attempting to convince the consumer the vehicle is cheaper to operate
...

So what are you saying? Modern vehicles require less maintenance, BUT not as little as the manufacturer's recommend? Increased service intervals are bogus, despite all recent improvements in oil, cooling fluid, and so on?

Frankly, I would trust the manufacturer's recommendation over the recommendations of most dealers that I've dealt with.

You can certainly choose to use any recommendations and for most people they are going to believe the manufacurer before the dealer. A little research though will find several cases where following the manufacturers schedule resulted in "sludged" engines and other problems in as little as 30,000-50,000 miles. Lexus, Toyota, BMW, and MINI are a few that have had severe problems often contributed to extended oil change intervals.

JohnAllen is correct.

Mercedes-Benz tried that FSS (Flexible Service Schedule) on their line of Mercedes-Benz in the late 1990s and early 2000s.

BIG / FAIL! Engine oil-pans were sludging-up to tar-like @ just 15K miles, on conventional motor oil. The manufacturer was at fault, and lost a Class Action lawsuit. So, here comes a 10-year or 150,000 mile warranty on ALL engines that had not blown-up due to sludging, IF the owner would switch to 100% full-synthetic motor oil.

Sometimes the dealer knows best - I would listen to John - he was brought-up in the car business for over 40+ years.

[Grit_dog]

All sounds about right for stealers and mech shops. Some honest ones but more that are not.
Anyone get the story that the shop is "required by law" to flush the brake fluid with any brake job?
Got that one a cpl years ago when I got new pads on my company truck that was only a year old and like 40 k miles!!

[dodge_guy]

JALLEN4 wrote:

brulaz wrote:

JALLEN4 wrote:

...
The modern vehicle is better built and does require less maintenance.
...
Many dealers do suggest more frequent maintenance intervals than the factory manual. This is simply because they see first hand the problems encountered when the service intervals are lengthened by the manufacturer in attempting to convince the consumer the vehicle is cheaper to operate
...

So what are you saying? Modern vehicles require less maintenance, BUT not as little as the manufacturer's recommend? Increased service intervals are bogus, despite all recent improvements in oil, cooling fluid, and so on?

Frankly, I would trust the manufacturer's recommendation over the recommendations of most dealers that I've dealt with.

You can certainly choose to use any recommendations and for most people they are going to believe the manufacurer before the dealer. A little research though will find several cases where following the manufacturers schedule resulted in "sludged" engines and other problems in as little as 30,000-50,000 miles. Lexus, Toyota, BMW, and MINI are a few that have had severe problems often contributed to extended oil change intervals.

Well at least there is one person that understands cars! I`ve always recommended more frequent service than what the manuf. recommends.

And I would recommend a trans service on a 4 year old truck that tows a trailer. dealer techs have ways of checking fluids in sealed units.

[spoon059]

monkey44 wrote:
Gotta tell ya one thing tho', when you replace your air cleaner, and then go in and get an oil change, and the dealer recommends a new air cleaner because yours is 'dirty' ... Kinda makes ya wonder?

Changed the brake fluid in the wifes car about 4K miles ago. Took it in for an oil change, they tried to sell a 60K mile package. I smiled and declined it. Called me later and told me that the brake fluid needs to be changed, it is burnt and dirty, for $119. I paid about $4 for a quart of fluid when I changed it.

They wanted to do a "throttle body cleaning" for $225. No thanks.

They told me her transmission fluid was dirty. Its a sealed transmission. The would have to drop the sump to check the fluid, which would result in losing 4 quarts of trans fluid. The fluid doesn't come to the bottom of the fill plug. I highly doubt they checked the fluid, they just saw the potential for a $250 fluid transfer that didn't need to be done. No thanks.

[monkey44]

Gotta tell ya one thing tho', when you replace your air cleaner, and then go in and get an oil change, and the dealer recommends a new air cleaner because yours is 'dirty' ... Kinda makes ya wonder?

[LowRyter]

brakes and air filters are all wear items and have no bearing on your warranty. Just as wheel alignment and tires. It's a good idea to inspect them but there's no warranty on your brakes, tires, etc. It'd doubtful a clogged air filter will do anything but bad gas mileage and sluggish power.

[JALLEN4]

brulaz wrote:

JALLEN4 wrote:

...
The modern vehicle is better built and does require less maintenance.
...
Many dealers do suggest more frequent maintenance intervals than the factory manual. This is simply because they see first hand the problems encountered when the service intervals are lengthened by the manufacturer in attempting to convince the consumer the vehicle is cheaper to operate
...

So what are you saying? Modern vehicles require less maintenance, BUT not as little as the manufacturer's recommend? Increased service intervals are bogus, despite all recent improvements in oil, cooling fluid, and so on?

Frankly, I would trust the manufacturer's recommendation over the recommendations of most dealers that I've dealt with.

You can certainly choose to use any recommendations and for most people they are going to believe the manufacurer before the dealer. A little research though will find several cases where following the manufacturers schedule resulted in "sludged" engines and other problems in as little as 30,000-50,000 miles. Lexus, Toyota, BMW, and MINI are a few that have had severe problems often contributed to extended oil change intervals.

[B_O__Plenty]

Cummins12V98 wrote:

B.O. Plenty wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:
Something to think about. The factory dealers usually have two grades of oil filters. Guess what, for the free oil changes for life or their specials you are getting their bottom of the barrel filter.

If I had any of these oil changes done I would pay the difference in filter costs to get their best!

I've worked at several dealerships. We never carried anything but the OEM factory oil filters. Dealers have to warranty all the parts they use. This is why they insist on OEM parts. If it was for a vehicle we didn't sell then they would get an aftermarket filter from NAPA for that particular vehicle, but they never stocked anything but factory parts for anything they sold. I doubt if any dealers are any different.

B.O.

I can't speak for everybody but I know AC DELCO only makes one grade...

B.O.

Did I say they were NOT OEM? I said two GRADES!

[Cummins12V98]

B.O. Plenty wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:
Something to think about. The factory dealers usually have two grades of oil filters. Guess what, for the free oil changes for life or their specials you are getting their bottom of the barrel filter.

If I had any of these oil changes done I would pay the difference in filter costs to get their best!

I've worked at several dealerships. We never carried anything but the OEM factory oil filters. Dealers have to warranty all the parts they use. This is why they insist on OEM parts. If it was for a vehicle we didn't sell then they would get an aftermarket filter from NAPA for that particular vehicle, but they never stocked anything but factory parts for anything they sold. I doubt if any dealers are any different.

B.O.

Did I say they were NOT OEM? I said two GRADES!

[brulaz]

JALLEN4 wrote:

...
The modern vehicle is better built and does require less maintenance.
...
Many dealers do suggest more frequent maintenance intervals than the factory manual. This is simply because they see first hand the problems encountered when the service intervals are lengthened by the manufacturer in attempting to convince the consumer the vehicle is cheaper to operate
...

So what are you saying? Modern vehicles require less maintenance, BUT not as little as the manufacturer's recommend? Increased service intervals are bogus, despite all recent improvements in oil, cooling fluid, and so on?

Frankly, I would trust the manufacturer's recommendation over the recommendations of most dealers that I've dealt with.

[B_O__Plenty]

Cummins12V98 wrote:
Something to think about. The factory dealers usually have two grades of oil filters. Guess what, for the free oil changes for life or their specials you are getting their bottom of the barrel filter.

If I had any of these oil changes done I would pay the difference in filter costs to get their best!

I've worked at several dealerships. We never carried anything but the OEM factory oil filters. Dealers have to warranty all the parts they use. This is why they insist on OEM parts. If it was for a vehicle we didn't sell then they would get an aftermarket filter from NAPA for that particular vehicle, but they never stocked anything but factory parts for anything they sold. I doubt if any dealers are any different.

B.O.

[Ron3rd]

JALLEN4 wrote:

monkey44 wrote:
Another issue -- dealers at one time had plenty of work keeping up with the maintenance on vehicles they sold. NOW, most do not have the same requirements, no points, plugs, rotor etc every 'xx' miles ... so, once the truck sells, we now have 100,000 mile plugs, electronic ignitions, and most of the general maintenance items are now absent.

What's a dealer to do - well, make up some 'check and adjust' periodic maintenance so it can keep its mechanics busy ... brakes now last twice or more as long, and other items that once wore out, don't. So, here we have mechanics with nothing to do ... and equipment that costs a fortune to buy and maintain.

Nothing against good mechanics here, we need them when we need them -- but to schedule periodic maintenance to 'look' at things that 'ain't broke' makes no sense --

That is really not entirely true. The modern vehicle is better built and does require less maintenance. On the other hand, the number of new vehicle dealerships has decreased dramatically, the number of vehicles in operation has increased dramatically, and the average age of vehicles in operation are far older requiring more work. In addition, the time for repair has increased with the advent of computerized controls and more complex diagnostics. Good shops are not standing around looking for something to do and the dollar volume they do is far higher than 30 years ago.

Many dealers do suggest more frequent maintenance intervals than the factory manual. This is simply because they see first hand the problems encountered when the service intervals are lengthened by the manufacturer in attempting to convince the consumer the vehicle is cheaper to operate and less time consuming. In many cases, the manufacturer has shortened service intervals from the level of just ten years ago because of these problems.

Like many other things, this can be carried too far by certain dealers. But simply because theyrecommendationomendation does not mean they are out to take advantage of the consumer. Anybody who flies a plane would be quick to realize that visual checks are important and are a necessary part of pre-flight. Seldom to vehicle owners take the time to actually inspect their vehicle when they drive it and rarer yet is actually putting the vehicle on a lift to do the job right.

I agree. There is actually very little maintenance on modern vehicles before 100K miles. Normally just filters, fluids, and brakes and tires that can wear out; maybe a serpentine belt.

[Cummins12V98]

OOPS double post!