Ram Eco-Diesel vs F150 2.7 TT - Davis Dam

[Hybridhunter]

You just know it's not gonna be close!

So which is better? Horsepower or torque lol.
(The answer is both, apparently.)

[DirtyOil]

wilber1 wrote:


Turtle n Peeps wrote:


DirtyOil wrote:


Quote:


If I build an engine that puts out 1000 ft/lbs of torque and limit the RPM to 1000 how much HP does it produce


HP = t x RPM/5252

Horse power of your engine Turtle is 190.4hp.

Winner, winner chicken dinner. Now answer the second part of the question.

How well would a 1000 ft/lb 190 HP engine do in a TV towing lets say a 15K 5er up a 7% grade?

It would do really well, just not very fast.


Maybe it's ok for some but sub 30mph would not be my definition of "really well." If that's the case my 65 HP tractor would make a pretty good TV.

x2 what Wilbur posted... and as far as speed... some have said... its not important as to how fast you reach the summit, but that you get there in one piece and enjoy the scenery along the way. :B

[DirtyOil]

Torque is simply a method of producing power. I cannot stress this enough.

The shove in the seat you feel is due to power. Power that is produced by torque. But you didn't "feel" torque

what I said... torque is what put you there ... not HP!

[mt1729]

HP is great for a car but for towing, torque gets it done. I had a old Mack with a 350 hp diesel. It had about 1420 ft lbs torque. It was a little slow pulling 70,000 lbs up a 7% grade but it always made it. How fast do you think a high hp lower torque engine would do? Even a 850 hp Nascar engine? They would power out & stop.

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

wilber1 wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

DirtyOil wrote:

If I build an engine that puts out 1000 ft/lbs of torque and limit the RPM to 1000 how much HP does it produce

HP = t x RPM/5252

Horse power of your engine Turtle is 190.4hp. 🙂

Winner, winner chicken dinner. Now answer the second part of the question.

How well would a 1000 ft/lb 190 HP engine do in a TV towing lets say a 15K 5er up a 7% grade?

It would do really well, just not very fast.

Maybe it's ok for some but sub 30mph would not be my definition of "really well." :E If that's the case my 65 HP tractor would make a pretty good TV. :B

[wilber1]

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

DirtyOil wrote:

If I build an engine that puts out 1000 ft/lbs of torque and limit the RPM to 1000 how much HP does it produce

HP = t x RPM/5252

Horse power of your engine Turtle is 190.4hp. 🙂

Winner, winner chicken dinner. Now answer the second part of the question.

How well would a 1000 ft/lb 190 HP engine do in a TV towing lets say a 15K 5er up a 7% grade?

It would do really well, just not very fast.

[RoyJ]

DirtyOil wrote:
If HP puts you into the back of the seat, why doesn't it continue to put you there as the torque tops out while the HP continues to increase? (all engines have their torque peak, then flatten out, then drop off as their HP continues to increase)

Because you've left out the most important term in the physics equation - velocity.

Power is defined as force x velocity.

When you peak torque is over and your hp is still climbing, your vehicle speed has reached a point where your rate of increase in hp cannot overcome the increase in speed. Hence, by definition, your seat of pants feel declines.

If you had an engine who's torque increased all the way to redline, then you'd feel a constant or increasing acceleration all the way to redline. But the reason is not torque, rather, because of your rate of increase of hp exceeds rate of increase of velocity. In physics terms you can say your dP/dt is greater than dV/dt.

Torque is simply a method of producing power. I cannot stress this enough.

The shove in the seat you feel is due to power. Power that is produced by torque. But you didn't "feel" torque.

Ask yourself this, when you feel the acceleration on an F18, rocket sled, or space shuttle, where's the torque?

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

DirtyOil wrote:

If I build an engine that puts out 1000 ft/lbs of torque and limit the RPM to 1000 how much HP does it produce

HP = t x RPM/5252

Horse power of your engine Turtle is 190.4hp. 🙂

Winner, winner chicken dinner. Now answer the second part of the question.

How well would a 1000 ft/lb 190 HP engine do in a TV towing lets say a 15K 5er up a 7% grade?

[DirtyOil]

here's some fun... wanna determine your own Hp?

1. weigh your self - need to convert to kgs, so weight in pounds times 0.454 = kgs (example 120lbs 125 x 0.454 = 56.75kg).

2. measure a flight of stairs bottom of stairway to the top. Need to convert feet to meters, ft x 0.3048 = meters (example 12ft 12 x 0.3048 = 3.658m)

3. You'll need a stop watch, with a running start, run up the stairs (starting the stop watch as your foot hits the first step, then stop the watch as both feet contact the floor at the top of the stairs). This will be your "time".


W = m x 9.81 x h divided by t

W = wattage
m = mass(your weight in kg)
9.81 = gravitational constant
h = height of stairs in meters
t = time ( how long it took you to race up those stairs)

example:

W = m(165lbs x 0.454= 74.91kgs) x 9.81 x h(12ft x 0.3048= 3.658m) divided by time ( I dunno say .35 seconds.. some may be slower or faster then others)

so: W=74.91 x 9.841 x 3.658 divided by 0.35

W = 7704.68

Now to convert wattage(power) to HP use HP = W divided by 746

HP = 7704.68/746

your HP is 10.328...

[Hybridhunter]

Well most starters make upwards of a few thousand foot pounds of torque. The won't get you very far very fast, now will they?
Again, 800ft/lbs at 1000 rpm, is less (horse) power than 300ft/lbs at 2700 rpm. All else being equal, you will have more power at the wheels with the second option. I still don't get how some don't understand that torque numbers are pretty nebulous, the amount of horsepower at any rpm, is a calculated number that essentially indicates that after appropriate gear and all the reduction, how much power will be available at the wheels, irrespective of gear ratio calcs, and whatever other smoke and mirrors one wants to introduce to the debate.
The Ram ED makes about 160hp at 2000rpm, most base V6's require a bit over 3000rpm, the 3.5EB requires similar rpm, and the 2.7, likely around 2300-2400.

But it just so happened I found myself on an abnormally busy 2 lane today, with more than a few geriatrics driving 10mph or more under the limit. I used to have 240hp, in a much smaller / lighter truck. I'd have been stuck in the slowpoke parade all day with the rolling terrain only offering limited passing opportunities. My point about a trailer requiring 110-120hp was that deduct that number off what lives under the hood, and that's what you got when you need it. And lets be honest, no one wants to go 50mph down the highway. All that philosophical oil burner happiness would have evaporated pretty fast this morning.... Slow isn't all that relaxing under those circumstances.
Flame away diesel zealots, cuz if the facts don't favor a debate, you can always resort to Ad Homonym.

[DirtyOil]

If I build an engine that puts out 1000 ft/lbs of torque and limit the RPM to 1000 how much HP does it produce

HP = t x RPM/5252

Horse power of your engine Turtle is 190.4hp. 🙂

[DirtyOil]

But choosing an engine that has more horsepower will definitely increase the force it will set you back in the seat

depending on how the "torque" is managed. I would be more interested in engine torque then horse power.


If HP puts you into the back of the seat, why doesn't it continue to put you there as the torque tops out while the HP continues to increase? (all engines have their torque peak, then flatten out, then drop off as their HP continues to increase)


HP sets you back in seat...? Lets compare a formula 1 race car has say 1000hp, to a small old school bulldozer with 50hp. That 1000hp aught to pull the wrinkles out of one's face (you would think anyways) but funny thing is that formula 1 race car can't get out of the pits on its own... it needs the pit crew to push it to get it rolling, so much for high horse power! :W

[Hammerhead]

That's because the Jeep has 8 gears. Our 2008 CRD Grand Cherokee was at 2,000 RPM in 5th gear so it never had to shift down into 4th unless we were towing. The 2014 ecodiesel's 8th gear doesn't hit 2,000 RPM until 77 MPH.

womps wrote:
I am not surprised how that 2.7 Ecoboost can out pull the 3.0 Ecodiesel. I have the Ecodiesel in a 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee and it will shift out of 8th on the slightest incline without pulling a trailer. The 3.5 Ecoboost in my 2012 F150 needs a very steep hill before it will shift out of 6th. Fuel economy, well we won't talk about that. Interestingly enough owners of the Ram with the Ecodisel are reporting fuel economy as good as the Grand Cherokee with the same engine.

[wilber1]

transamz9 wrote:

RCMAN46 wrote:

JPhelps wrote:

Hey T&P. Remember that one person telling us that HP is just a calculation and doesn't really exist like TQ does? Lol

LOL, that guy was right. Look up the definition.
You will notice that 'torque' is the measure of 'work'. Work requires a force. That force is torque. All horsepower adds to the equation is time, so horsepower is just the ticking of the clock.

This guy quoted below works with horsepower all the time for his livelihood and this is what he has to say about it.

What This Means
As we proved above, horsepower is simply an extrapolation of torque applied over time. When an engine is measured for its power potential on a dynamometer, horsepower and torque are not measured as separate entities. Rather, torque is measured, and horsepower is then calculated given the torque at the specific RPM level.
Car owners often use “horsepower” as the end-all be-all rating for engine performance. This perspective is flawed. First of all, when you hear of a car having X horsepower, it only refers to the peak horsepower on the dyno graph. Secondly, it doesn’t indicate what the shape of the torque curve is. You can feel the torque that an engine generates as you’re pushed back into your seat.

http://www.roushperformance.com/blog/2010/12/the-meaning-of-horsepower-and-torque/

Bye,,,,, again.

But if you are talking about a chassis dynamometer (that is what you will find in the field)
They measure horsepower and the torque has to be calculated.

Also torque is not a measurement of work. Torque is only a force measurement. You can have a 1000 ft lbs of torque with no work being done.

But if you have 300 hp work is being done.

When you are being pushed back in you seat that is horsepower.

Being pushed back in your seat is torque overpowering the resistance. Horsepower is just a mathematical calculation that tells you how much torque you are putting out to overcome that resistance.

You are leaving out one important element. The rate it can overcome that resistance.

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

RCMAN46 wrote:
When a car puts you back in your seat that is because the car is accelerating. The faster the car accelerates the more it will push you back.

Force applied in a unit of time describes horsepower and not torque.

Choosing an engine that has more torque may not accelerate the car faster.

But choosing an engine that has more horsepower will definitely increase the force it will set you back in the seat.

Well said and on the money.

On a bike I can put out about 200 ft/lbs of torque and about 1/2 HP. A 5 HP with 9 ft/lbs of torque go-cart would wax me in a drag race.

[RCMAN46]

When a car puts you back in your seat that is because the car is accelerating. The faster the car accelerates the more it will push you back.

Force applied in a unit of time describes horsepower and not torque.

Choosing an engine that has more torque may not accelerate the car faster.

But choosing an engine that has more horsepower will definitely increase the force it will set you back in the seat.