Survey says... 1T for 5th wheel & 3/4T for BP Toyhauler

[Txsurfer]

Well after reading many posts and researching payload caps ( diesels) ..it appears to me that if you are even thinking about a 5th wheel you should go with a 1T class truck where as a 3/4T should be able to handle most BP types. I know this a generalization but seems pretty accurate no? The payload is the really the deciding factor from what I have seen and the pin weights are just too high on 5th wheel toyhaulers. That is if you want to stay in-line with the law atleast.

[ShinerBock]

tinner12002 wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:
What modern 3/4 tons are rated to handle and what it can actually handle are two very different numbers.

Also, please post the law requiring you to stay within the manufacturers tire load and inflation sticker. I have asked this many times and not one person has ever been able to provide it. The only laws I know of about what a vehicle can legally haul or tow is in regards to the registered GVWR(which can differ from the trucks actual GVWR) and GAWR limits.

If you do not have much knowledge about tow vehicles or towing in general then I recommend staying within whatever the manufacturer suggest. If you have plenty of knowledge and experience to know what a vehicle can safely handle, then by this point you would have already known that a 3/4 ton can handle way more than what its (de)rated for.

I totally disagree with the last statement!! Trucks I'm sure are capable of more than they are rated for but they have those ratings for a reason, frame, tranny, axle, bearings, wheels and tires, u-joints are all designed to withstand just so much weight. When they use these ratings all those items and more are taken into consideration. There is a certain amount of safety margin built in I'm sure. Some people exceed the safety margin just because the truck pulls it just fine...not very smart in my opinion. Obviously some think they know more about weights and measures and frame stress and parts durability than the manufacturers and those are again in my opinion the dangerous ones on our hiways!!
With that said, the OPs generalization of what trucks tow what is a pretty good summary.

Nope, that is not the case. Today's 3/4 tons have the same frame, brakes, axles, front suspension, bearings, and so forth as the 1 ton SRW. They are basically identical trucks aside from the rear suspension. In fact, with certain makes, you can add a package to a 3/4 ton and make identical, rear suspension and all, to the 1 ton variant.

Case in point is Fords camper package for the F250. Pay the $170 for the package and you have an F350 with an F250 badge on it. Ford also has a package for the F350 that will de-rate it down to the specs of an F250 on paper so that it will cost less to register for fleets. It is called the 10,000 GVWR package.

In the old days, what you say was true. There were many distinct differences between a 3/4 ton and 1 ton that effected the rated capacities of each. That is not the case anymore. They are basically identical aside from there rear suspension and the 3/4 tons are neutered on paper due to the governments 10,000 lb max GVWR of the Class 2B truck class they are in.

[ShinerBock]

Me Again wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:



That and the fact that all SRW 350/3500 trucks of about 8-15 years ago had the same or less of a GVWR than the 250/2500 trucks today. My father in laws 2003 F350 crew cab long bed 4x4 has a GVWR of 9,900 lb GVWR which is 100 lbs less than my 2014 crew cab short bed 4x4 2500 and I have a higher GAWR. Yet no one will even question if his truck pulls a fifth wheel while questioning mine.... go figure.

Trucks today are almost a 1000 pounds heavier than the 8-15 year old truck.

While that is true on paper in the case of my truck and my father in laws truck, it is not in the real world. On paper his truck is over 1,000 lbs lighter, but this was when Ford was taking off "optional" equipment such as bumpers to keep the weight down.

In the real world per the CAT scale that we did (and do with all our vehicles when new)there is only a 600 lbs difference between his 2003 F350 Lariat long bed 4x4 and my 2015 2500 Laramie short bed 4x4, and most of that weight is on the front axles. However, my 6,000 lb front GAWR versus his 4,800 font GAWR more then makes up for the 600 lb difference.

[rhagfo]

tinner12002 wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:
What modern 3/4 tons are rated to handle and what it can actually handle are two very different numbers.

Also, please post the law requiring you to stay within the manufacturers tire load and inflation sticker. I have asked this many times and not one person has ever been able to provide it. The only laws I know of about what a vehicle can legally haul or tow is in regards to the registered GVWR(which can differ from the trucks actual GVWR) and GAWR limits.

If you do not have much knowledge about tow vehicles or towing in general then I recommend staying within whatever the manufacturer suggest. If you have plenty of knowledge and experience to know what a vehicle can safely handle, then by this point you would have already known that a 3/4 ton can handle way more than what its (de)rated for.

By

I totally disagree with the last statement!! Trucks I'm sure are capable of more than they are rated for but they have those ratings for a reason, frame, tranny, axle, bearings, wheels and tires, u-joints are all designed to withstand just so much weight. When they use these ratings all those items and more are taken into consideration. There is a certain amount of safety margin built in I'm sure. Some people exceed the safety margin just because the truck pulls it just fine...not very smart in my opinion. Obviously some think they know more about weights and measures and frame stress and parts durability than the manufacturers and those are again in my opinion the dangerous ones on our hiways!!
With that said, the OPs generalization of what trucks tow what is a pretty good summary.

I tend to agree with ShinerBock, all most 2500's are are derated 3500 SRW trucks. Yes, Ram has coil springs, but still same axles and basic frame. The only 250/2500's exist is because many states consider 350/3500's commercial vehicles, and charge much higher tax and registration fees.

[tinner12002]

ShinerBock wrote:
What modern 3/4 tons are rated to handle and what it can actually handle are two very different numbers.

Also, please post the law requiring you to stay within the manufacturers tire load and inflation sticker. I have asked this many times and not one person has ever been able to provide it. The only laws I know of about what a vehicle can legally haul or tow is in regards to the registered GVWR(which can differ from the trucks actual GVWR) and GAWR limits.

If you do not have much knowledge about tow vehicles or towing in general then I recommend staying within whatever the manufacturer suggest. If you have plenty of knowledge and experience to know what a vehicle can safely handle, then by this point you would have already known that a 3/4 ton can handle way more than what its (de)rated for.

I totally disagree with the last statement!! Trucks I'm sure are capable of more than they are rated for but they have those ratings for a reason, frame, tranny, axle, bearings, wheels and tires, u-joints are all designed to withstand just so much weight. When they use these ratings all those items and more are taken into consideration. There is a certain amount of safety margin built in I'm sure. Some people exceed the safety margin just because the truck pulls it just fine...not very smart in my opinion. Obviously some think they know more about weights and measures and frame stress and parts durability than the manufacturers and those are again in my opinion the dangerous ones on our hiways!!
With that said, the OPs generalization of what trucks tow what is a pretty good summary.

[rhagfo]

valhalla360 wrote:
If you haven't bought the truck yet and there are 3/4 & 1 ton trucks of similar quality for similar price...yes, get the 1 ton.

But if you have the 3/4 ton already or you find a great deal on one....it really does come down to the trailer you are matching it up with. Below 32-34', a lot of 5th wheels can be towed by a 3/4 ton without exceeding the limits. Above 35' it gets more difficult to do. By the time you get to 40', 1 ton duallies may be outmatched.

You have to look at the specific truck and the specific trailer as both can vary greatly. We wound up with a 34' that is right at the limits on our current 3/4 ton but we passed on a couple 30' 5ers that would have left us over weight.

X2

If looking new get a 350/3500 STW minimum, if you already own a good TV, you at your discretion tow over the GVWR. It may or may or may. It may or may or may or put you I legal limbo.

[Me_Again]

ShinerBock wrote:



That and the fact that all SRW 350/3500 trucks of about 8-15 years ago had the same or less of a GVWR than the 250/2500 trucks today. My father in laws 2003 F350 crew cab long bed 4x4 has a GVWR of 9,900 lb GVWR which is 100 lbs less than my 2014 crew cab short bed 4x4 2500 and I have a higher GAWR. Yet no one will even question if his truck pulls a fifth wheel while questioning mine.... go figure.

Trucks today are almost a 1000 pounds heavier than the 8-15 year old truck.

[kw_00]

Txsurfer wrote:
Well after reading many posts and researching payload caps ( diesels) ..it appears to me that if you are even thinking about a 5th wheel you should go with a 1T class truck where as a 3/4T should be able to handle most BP types. I know this a generalization but seems pretty accurate no? The payload is the really the deciding factor from what I have seen and the pin weights are just too high on 5th wheel toyhaulers. That is if you want to stay in-line with the law atleast.

Don't know what law that you are referring to? I realize that everything has limitations and trucks regardless of size have payload differences. I don't agree with everything your saying, ( don't take that wrong even though it may sound that way...:-) I have seen more then my share of fifth wheels design for 3/4 ton trucks. Manufacturers are now even making a few available fifth wheel choices for 1/2 ton configurations. So it may be a general statement as you said but, it appears to me your speaking more about toyhaulers then standard fifth wheels. If so then yes the majority of toyhaulers I see are better suited for 1 ton series trucks. As far as 3/4 ton and 1 ton truck differences are now, there is not much. My 2500hD shares mostly everything that the 3500 has except 1 leaf spring difference and the diff goes from 10.5 to 11.5. But with Older GM trucks for all these years, the 1 ton used the same 10.5 axel that my 3/4 ton has now. That's based on my 09 truck, I don't know about the brand news ones cause well my paycheck won't cover one of those bills.....

[IdaD]

Bedlam wrote:
It depends on the options chosen. If you choose a base 3/4t, you will most likely find tires rated around 3200 lbs on them. If you choose the blinged out version of the 1t SRW, you may find the wheel combination is also derating the axle capacity. I did generalize across the brands, but it will give someone a place to start before they dig down in the details of the class truck they want. Are they putting on OEM tires with a load index over 125 now? The base tires on a 3/4t are usually load index 121.

If you go down to the 1/2t class you will find that some have payloads that would exceed the RAWR or wheels. Here they are adding in some FAW capacity to make their truck payload numbers look higher on those semi-floating rear axles.

Yes you are correct on the base model trucks, but when I was shopping those were few and far between. I can't speak to the higher trim blinged out trucks since that wasn't what I was looking at.

My truck shipped with 125 - 3640 lbs per tire.

[Bedlam]

My F250 with the Camper and 18" wheel package was a F350 that sat 2" lower in the back and didn't have the badge. Once you know what to look at, you can play with configurations and see if you come out cheaper going one way or another for the the same capable truck. Until you feel comfortable with all this, at least you can count on a 3/4t carrying 3K+ lbs, 1t SRW 4K+ lbs and 1t DRW 6K+ lbs.

[ShinerBock]

Bedlam wrote:
Most 3/4t trucks come with rear tires and rims rated over 6000 lbs, most 1t SRW's come with wheels rated over 7000 lbs and most 1t DRW's come with wheels rated over 10,000 lbs. Most of the SRW trucks are about 3000 lbs empty on the rear and DRW trucks about 3500 lbs. This gives you a good idea what each can do for payload in stock configuration. If buying a truck, match up your desired payload and you're done. If you already have a reliable truck, know where your weakest link in the rear axle assembly lies if you need a boost in payload. If the payload is so great that jumping up one class of truck through component upgrades will not help you, it's time to think about a smaller payload or a bigger truck.

Great post!

My 2500 came with the same tires as the 3500. While the front axle/suspension and rear axles were the same, the rear suspension wasn't which is why the 3500 variant of my truck a RGAWR of 7,000 lbs while my 2500 has a 6,500 lb RGAWR. Everything else on my 2500 truck from the frame to the brakes is exactly same as the 3500.

So a 500 lbs difference in RGAWR equates to a 1,700 lb difference in GVWR and payload? I am not a math genius, but that doesn't add up. There should only be a 500 lb difference in GVWR and payload between the 2500 and 3500 going by the lowest rating of the individual parts yet there is a 1,700 lbs difference. This is why I have no qualms with loading my truck with 1,000 lbs more than it is rated for.

[Bedlam]

It depends on the options chosen. If you choose a base 3/4t, you will most likely find tires rated around 3200 lbs on them. If you choose the blinged out version of the 1t SRW, you may find the wheel combination is also derating the axle capacity. I did generalize across the brands, but it will give someone a place to start before they dig down in the details of the class truck they want. Are they putting on OEM tires with a load index over 125 now? The base tires on a 3/4t are usually load index 121.

If you go down to the 1/2t class you will find that some have payloads that would exceed the RAWR or wheels. Here they are adding in some FAW capacity to make their truck payload numbers look higher on those semi-floating rear axles.

[mowermech]

My son had a 32 foot triple slide fifth wheel.
He towed it with a 3/4 ton truck.
I towed the same trailer with a 4X2 one ton dually.
Both trucks worked equally well in towing that trailer.
I don't know what his licensed GVW was, but mine was 14K.
We both had Load Range E tires.
Both trucks were Dodge Ram CTD.

[IdaD]

Bedlam wrote:
Most 3/4t trucks come with rear tires and rims rated over 6000 lbs, most 1t SRW's come with wheels rated over 7000 lbs and most 1t DRW's come with wheels rated over 10,000 lbs. Most of the SRW trucks are about 3000 lbs empty on the rear and DRW trucks about 3500 lbs. This gives you a good idea what each can do for payload in stock configuration. If buying a truck, match up your desired payload and you're done. If you already have a reliable truck, know where your weakest link in the rear axle assembly lies if you need a boost in payload. If the payload is so great that jumping up one class of truck through component upgrades will not help you, it's time to think about a smaller payload or a bigger truck.

These days most 3/4 tons come with the same tires and wheels as SRW 1 tons and are also rated in excess of 7000 lbs.

[Bedlam]

Most 3/4t trucks come with rear tires and rims rated over 6000 lbs, most 1t SRW's come with wheels rated over 7000 lbs and most 1t DRW's come with wheels rated over 10,000 lbs. Most of the SRW trucks are about 3000 lbs empty on the rear and DRW trucks about 3500 lbs. This gives you a good idea what each can do for payload in stock configuration. If buying a truck, match up your desired payload and you're done. If you already have a reliable truck, know where your weakest link in the rear axle assembly lies if you need a boost in payload. If the payload is so great that jumping up one class of truck through component upgrades will not help you, it's time to think about a smaller payload or a bigger truck.

[Txsurfer]

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