Survey says... 1T for 5th wheel & 3/4T for BP Toyhauler

[Txsurfer]

Well after reading many posts and researching payload caps ( diesels) ..it appears to me that if you are even thinking about a 5th wheel you should go with a 1T class truck where as a 3/4T should be able to handle most BP types. I know this a generalization but seems pretty accurate no? The payload is the really the deciding factor from what I have seen and the pin weights are just too high on 5th wheel toyhaulers. That is if you want to stay in-line with the law atleast.

[Bedlam]

What also makes it more confusing is that personal use verse business use verses RV use may all be different for the same vehicle in the same state.

[ShinerBock]

spoon059 wrote:



By the way, just one more example to prove that they are arbitrary... I live in Maryland. Maryland allows me to register any vehicle for any weight that I want, I just have to pay a higher tax/registration fee for that higher weight. I can register a Ford Ranger for 12,000 lbs GVWR if I want to. If I put E rated tires and wheels with a load capacity of at least 3000 lbs on my Ranger, I can legally load that Ranger down to 16K lbs. I can then figure out a way to load a heavy 5th wheel on that Ranger and drive it through California on my regular non-commercial class A license which rates me to drive any non commercial vehicle and any non commercial trailer.

While incredibly stupid to do so, California couldn't do a darn thing about it. I'm under the federal bridge limits of 20K per axle, I'm under my registered weight of 12K lbs and I'm under my tire rate of 12K lbs. This is all hyperbole, mind you, because the Ranger likely wouldn't make it out of my driveway without falling apart, but my point is that it would be PERFECTLY LEGAL.

You can do the very same thing in Texas. If I pay the extra amount for a 10,001-14,000 GVWR registration then I can legally load my below 10k GVWR truck with that amount. The penalty for exceeding your registered GVWR here is to pay the GVWR you got caught with for the amount of time the vehicle was registered. So if an under 10k GVWR registered 5 year old truck got caught with a load that puts him in the above 10k to 14k GVWR registration class, then you would have to pay the difference in registration cost ($56) for every year that the vehicle was registered in Texas and have it registered in that GVWR from that point on.

Some people get a little confused in regards to what GVWR the law is talking about since factory GVWR and registered GVWR are used for different requirements. When it comes down to vehicles with a factory GVWR of under 26,000 lbs that don't need a CDL, the GVWR that matters in the eyes of the law is the GVWR you register your truck for, not the factory GVWR. Factory GVWR and registered GVWR are two different things. One is enforced by law(registered) and the other isn't(factory) when it pertains to vehicles below 26,000 lbs GVWR.

[otrfun]

spoon059 wrote:
. . . Axle ratings and GVWR are simply a warranty number imposed by the manufacturer. There is no way for law enforcement to enforce those arbitrary numbers.

otrfun wrote:
TX and CA (and other states) use the GVWR and/or GCWR of various RV's (motorhomes, TV's and trailers) to determine whether a state issued Class A/B/C (non-DOT) license is necessary. It would seem, at least in some states, the DMV and law enforcement view GVWR/GCWR as a bit more than arbitrary and/or a "warranty number".

spoon059 wrote:
Now you understand exactly WHY manufacturers offer a 3/4 ton truck, as opposed to a 1 ton truck. They do it because of arbitrary numbers like California and Texas deciding that a truck OVER 10,000 lbs is commercial, whereas a truck at or below 10,000 lbs is not commercial. There is very little mechanical difference between the two vehicles (assuming SRW only)... but one is arbitrarily given a 10,000 max GVWR simply to comply with the weight designation of certain states.

You are proving my point. All these numbers just mean a different level of tax from each state. These states require a more expensive registration fee, or a more expensive license for trucks over being over 10,000 lbs. It doesn't make the one vehicle more or less capable than the other... it just allows the state to collect more money for allowing you the privilege to drive it.

By the way, just one more example to prove that they are arbitrary... I live in Maryland. Maryland allows me to register any vehicle for any weight that I want, I just have to pay a higher tax/registration fee for that higher weight. I can register a Ford Ranger for 12,000 lbs GVWR if I want to. If I put E rated tires and wheels with a load capacity of at least 3000 lbs on my Ranger, I can legally load that Ranger down to 16K lbs. I can then figure out a way to load a heavy 5th wheel on that Ranger and drive it through California on my regular non-commercial class A license which rates me to drive any non commercial vehicle and any non commercial trailer.

While incredibly stupid to do so, California couldn't do a darn thing about it. I'm under the federal bridge limits of 20K per axle, I'm under my registered weight of 12K lbs and I'm under my tire rate of 12K lbs. This is all hyperbole, mind you, because the Ranger likely wouldn't make it out of my driveway without falling apart, but my point is that it would be PERFECTLY LEGAL.

You choose to see the state laws pertaining to GVWR/GCWR as arbitrary, unenforceable, generally ineffective, and the manufacturers GVWR for warranty purposes only.

I choose to see them otherwise.

[spoon059]

otrfun wrote:
TX and CA (and other states) use the GVWR and/or GCWR of various RV's (motorhomes, TV's and trailers) to determine whether a state issued Class A/B/C (non-DOT) license is necessary. It would seem, at least in some states, the DMV and law enforcement view GVWR/GCWR as a bit more than arbitrary and/or a "warranty number".

Now you understand exactly WHY manufacturers offer a 3/4 ton truck, as opposed to a 1 ton truck. They do it because of arbitrary numbers like California and Texas deciding that a truck OVER 10,000 lbs is commercial, whereas a truck at or below 10,000 lbs is not commercial. There is very little mechanical difference between the two vehicles (assuming SRW only)... but one is arbitrarily given a 10,000 max GVWR simply to comply with the weight designation of certain states.

You are proving my point. All these numbers just mean a different level of tax from each state. These states require a more expensive registration fee, or a more expensive license for trucks over being over 10,000 lbs. It doesn't make the one vehicle more or less capable than the other... it just allows the state to collect more money for allowing you the privilege to drive it.

By the way, just one more example to prove that they are arbitrary... I live in Maryland. Maryland allows me to register any vehicle for any weight that I want, I just have to pay a higher tax/registration fee for that higher weight. I can register a Ford Ranger for 12,000 lbs GVWR if I want to. If I put E rated tires and wheels with a load capacity of at least 3000 lbs on my Ranger, I can legally load that Ranger down to 16K lbs. I can then figure out a way to load a heavy 5th wheel on that Ranger and drive it through California on my regular non-commercial class A license which rates me to drive any non commercial vehicle and any non commercial trailer.

While incredibly stupid to do so, California couldn't do a darn thing about it. I'm under the federal bridge limits of 20K per axle, I'm under my registered weight of 12K lbs and I'm under my tire rate of 12K lbs. This is all hyperbole, mind you, because the Ranger likely wouldn't make it out of my driveway without falling apart, but my point is that it would be PERFECTLY LEGAL.

[FishOnOne]

ShinerBock wrote:


Riddle me this.... What is the difference mechanically between an F250 with the camper package and a regular F350? Or between a regular F350 and one with the 10k GVWR package?

The rear differential...

For gas power trucks the F250 has the Torque Shift G transmission and the F350 has the same Torque Shift as the diesel.

[blt2ski]

That link by shinerbock says what I thought it would. No reference to manufacture ratings. Similar wording to here in WaSt 're RCW45. That this states weight laws and how enforced etc.
All pickups be them used commercial or personal only pay/buy tonnage in 2000 lb increments. Base amount is tare time 150 percent to next higher ton. If your rig empty is 7000-7500 lbs, that is 10500-11250, rounded up to 12,000 registered gvw. You are legal to that give assuming you paid the tonnage, and your tire widths times 500 lbs is greater than you weigh. Or 20k for a single axle, 34000 for tandem as noted. There are a few other exceptions per say.
Also as noted, if you do as I have with my C2500, my paid for registration is 8000 lbs. If I run down the road at good sticker 8600 gvw, I am overweight by 600 lbs. I've been pulled over in rigs 150 percent of manufacturers gvwr, but under FBL limits and paid for registration. I have no overweight tickets in my name, or company name.
Gcwr or its many variations, is not a legal number of any sort. Only in that the axles will be added up for max you can run down the road at, using formulas mentioned for max enforced loads.
The loads enforced by leo/cveo types, is max point load the road cab handle before road is damaged. THIS is the weight law enforced. Not the manufacture warranty/performance ratings.

Marty

[otrfun]

spoon059 wrote:
. . . Axle ratings and GVWR are simply a warranty number imposed by the manufacturer. There is no way for law enforcement to enforce those arbitrary numbers.

TX and CA (and other states) use the GVWR and/or GCWR of various RV's (motorhomes, TV's and trailers) to determine whether a state issued Class A/B/C (non-DOT) license is necessary. It would seem, at least in some states, the DMV and law enforcement view GVWR/GCWR as a bit more than arbitrary and/or a "warranty number".

[ShinerBock]

Txsurfer wrote:
SO if I get scaled by DOT what will they go by? Axle ratings?

General Provisions Relating to Vehicle Size and Weight

[spoon059]

blt2ski wrote:
I'm also waiting for someone to.show me in both federal and state laws etc, where I have to follow the numbers on my door sticker.

Marty

Just don't hold your breath Marty, we'd like to have you around for a while :B

[spoon059]

Txsurfer wrote:
SO if I get scaled by DOT what will they go by? Axle ratings?

Federal bridge regulations are 20K lb per axle.
The MAXIMUM of your tire ratings.
Potentially the MAXIMUM of your REGISTERED WEIGHT.

Axle ratings and GVWR are simply a warranty number imposed by the manufacturer. There is no way for law enforcement to enforce those arbitrary numbers.

[Txsurfer]

SO if I get scaled by DOT what will they go by? Axle ratings?

[blt2ski]

I'm also waiting for someone to.show me in both federal and state laws etc, where I have to follow the numbers on my door sticker.

Marty

[N-Trouble]

ShinerBock wrote:

tinner12002 wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:
What modern 3/4 tons are rated to handle and what it can actually handle are two very different numbers.

Also, please post the law requiring you to stay within the manufacturers tire load and inflation sticker. I have asked this many times and not one person has ever been able to provide it. The only laws I know of about what a vehicle can legally haul or tow is in regards to the registered GVWR(which can differ from the trucks actual GVWR) and GAWR limits.

If you do not have much knowledge about tow vehicles or towing in general then I recommend staying within whatever the manufacturer suggest. If you have plenty of knowledge and experience to know what a vehicle can safely handle, then by this point you would have already known that a 3/4 ton can handle way more than what its (de)rated for.

I totally disagree with the last statement!! Trucks I'm sure are capable of more than they are rated for but they have those ratings for a reason, frame, tranny, axle, bearings, wheels and tires, u-joints are all designed to withstand just so much weight. When they use these ratings all those items and more are taken into consideration. There is a certain amount of safety margin built in I'm sure. Some people exceed the safety margin just because the truck pulls it just fine...not very smart in my opinion. Obviously some think they know more about weights and measures and frame stress and parts durability than the manufacturers and those are again in my opinion the dangerous ones on our hiways!!
With that said, the OPs generalization of what trucks tow what is a pretty good summary.

Nope, that is not the case. Today's 3/4 tons have the same frame, brakes, axles, front suspension, bearings, and so forth as the 1 ton SRW. They are basically identical trucks aside from the rear suspension. In fact, with certain makes, you can add a package to a 3/4 ton and make identical, rear suspension and all, to the 1 ton variant.

Case in point is Fords camper package for the F250. Pay the $170 for the package and you have an F350 with an F250 badge on it. Ford also has a package for the F350 that will de-rate it down to the specs of an F250 on paper so that it will cost less to register for fleets. It is called the 10,000 GVWR package.

In the old days, what you say was true. There were many distinct differences between a 3/4 ton and 1 ton that effected the rated capacities of each. That is not the case anymore. They are basically identical aside from there rear suspension and the 3/4 tons are neutered on paper due to the governments 10,000 lb max GVWR of the Class 2B truck class they are in.

^^THIS^^ If people want to be legally within the numbers posted on the door then buy a 1 ton. But as Shiner pointed out one can easily make their modern 3/4 ton every bit as capable as a 1 ton. Bags or Timbrens and maybe tires. Personally I would only go 1ton if I needed a dually because a SRW 1 ton are unicorns compared to 3/4 tons available out there

[IdaD]

It's silly that this topic is even a subject of debate at this point. The inability of some to see past a payload tag is nothing short of willful ignorance.

[ShinerBock]

Here is an eye opener Me Again.

If you go on Ram's Bodybuilder sheet,(open in ie, not chrome) then you can verify the specs below.

Compare a 2009 3500 Laramie SRW short bed 4x4 to my 5 years newer 2014 2500 Laramie short bed 4x4. The 2009 3500 has a GVWR of 10,100 lbs while my truck has a GVWR of 10,000 lbs.

You can see that my 2014 2500's curb weight is 756 lbs heaver than the 2009 3500 with most of that weight being over the front axle. However, my 2014 2500 has a greater front and rear GAWR than the 2009 3500 to more then compensate for the weight difference. The 2009 3500 also has a much lower tow rating and GCWR with the same rear gear as mine. As you can also see, my 2014 2500 even has a greater GCWR and tow ratings than a 2009 3500 with 4.10 rear gears.







With all this, not one of the "you need a 1 ton to pull a 5th wheel" guys would even question the 2009 3500 pulling a 5th wheel yet will question my 2014 2500 doing the same even though all of its ratings (besides the government de-rated GVWR) are much higher. To that I say educate yourself and quit applying what used to be to the way it is now because they are two different things.