The China-Bomb debate Put to rest

[4X4Dodger]

Almost every week or more a thread appears with someone with a tire question. And just as predictably the China Bomb experts come out and start decrying all Chinese made tires.

Then usually they recommend MAXXIS tires. Maxxis are held in almost religious high regard by some here and they claim are NOT made in China.

This is usually followed by several others who also recommend Maxxis.

I personally have no doubt that Maxxis are good tires. As are Goodyears, Kumho, Cooper and many other brands. But I don't beleive they are SIGNIFICANTLY better than any other.

I have tried in many of these posts to bring some perspective on Chinese manufacturing which I know quite well from my professional life. I also try to bring some facts to bear on the subject.

So in an effort to arm myself with more facts I was doing some research on Tire Manufacturing in China and came across a very interesting article in a Tire Industry Publication Called Tire Review.

The chart below appears in that article clearly showing that MAXXIS is part of one of the largest tire manufacturers in China. Note also the inclusion of several western tire manufacturers who also manufacture in China.

From Tire Review Magazine 10/1/2015 David Shaw



Now for a little context: The article I cite was written about the tire Industry IN China ie it centered mostly on the Chinese Domestic market. It did cover the issue of exports also. But it's main focus was the Domestic Chinese market.

The article goes on to explain that there is currently a shakedown taking place in the Chinese Tire industry with some new US tariffs being applied (due to alleged Dumping) and new regulations on the industry by the Government of China. Here is a quote:

"U.S. duties aside, probably the biggest factor in the Chinese tire industry crisis is the slew of new legislation being issued by the Chinese government and managed through the CRIA. China is set to become the most-heavily regulated country in the world for tire manufacturing."

and...According to the article China dominates the GLOBAL market for tires.

I hope this takes a few steps towards normalizing the debate on this site about China Bombs and how great Maxxis are.

The FACT is that some great tires are made by many companies in China, by Chinese, American and European companies.

So please lets just stop the China Bomb rants and stop encouraging folks who have tire questions to replace all the tires that came on their new trailers. It's a waste of money and there is no evidence of any kind that it is either necessary or desirable.

As you can see those revered MAXXIS are owned by a Chinese firm and are manufactured in China as well as some other Asian countries.

[4X4Dodger]

Huntindog wrote:

4X4Dodger wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

rbpru wrote:
There are over a million ST tires use annually just on TTs and 5vers, not to mention horse trailers, cargo trailers, utility trailers etc. plus the stores that service the farm and ranch market.

The ST tire world extends far beyond our little TT corner of the world.

Are you suggesting that the ST tire sales are anywhere close to LT tire sales?

If I may add:

The issue is that with the Millions of ST Tires IN USE just in the USA the numbers of failures represent a MINUSCULE percentage that is statistically irrelevant. ie. Nothing can be learned or assumed by it.

By and large tires OF ALL kinds are very reliable and rarely fail. If used properly, kept properly inflated, and not overloaded. Those by the way are the NTHSA's own list of what constitutes most failures.

NOT manufacturing defects.

How do you account for the HUGE difference in miles used per year?
The average vehicle is driven well over 12K a year

Many TTs are only towed 150-200 miles two are three times a year... I have read that many TTs don't move at all after they are three years old! Of course that is blasphemy here on a TT enthusiests board.. But I believe it to be true, just from the number of TTs I see parked at residences that never move.
Those owners are well served by the cheapest tires they can get.

You bring up an interesting point. But if you read the entire NHTSA Rule you see that no assumption was made regarding the number of miles driven in testing the tires. Lt and ST Radial Tires were tested to the same standard.

While you are undoubtedly right about the mileage differences and that many trailers sit for long periods. I have put about 20k on my trailer in the last 17 months 5000 miles of that in the last two months. And many many many people do put lots of miles on their ST tires.

You are also right, at least in my view, that those who do use their trailers for one or two camping trips per year are probably better off with cheaper tires.

[Huntindog]

4X4Dodger wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

rbpru wrote:
There are over a million ST tires use annually just on TTs and 5vers, not to mention horse trailers, cargo trailers, utility trailers etc. plus the stores that service the farm and ranch market.

The ST tire world extends far beyond our little TT corner of the world.

Are you suggesting that the ST tire sales are anywhere close to LT tire sales?

If I may add:

The issue is that with the Millions of ST Tires IN USE just in the USA the numbers of failures represent a MINUSCULE percentage that is statistically irrelevant. ie. Nothing can be learned or assumed by it.

By and large tires OF ALL kinds are very reliable and rarely fail. If used properly, kept properly inflated, and not overloaded. Those by the way are the NTHSA's own list of what constitutes most failures.

NOT manufacturing defects.

How do you account for the HUGE difference in miles used per year?
The average vehicle is driven well over 12K a year

Many TTs are only towed 150-200 miles two are three times a year... I have read that many TTs don't move at all after they are three years old! Of course that is blasphemy here on a TT enthusiests board.. But I believe it to be true, just from the number of TTs I see parked at residences that never move.
Those owners are well served by the cheapest tires they can get.

[chr_]

FYI,

The currently available Carlisle ST Tires are now rated to 87 MPH. Wonder if you could get out of a ticket in California for pulling a trailer over 55MPH. That statute is only because of tire ratings that are way outdated.

Another FYI,

For those of you who want LT's on your TT but are running 14" tires, General Grabber LT's are available in LT 27.5-8.5 R 14. Funny, only one Discount tire I have been to recently knew that. Had the one in Kingman known that, or bothered to check, I'd be running them already. ST tires just can't take the rocks in the desert...

[Ohio_Engineer]

I do not understand much of this discussion. The tire seen in the post Posted: 06/11/16 07:26am
post failed due to Run Low Flex failure.

If you can't keep air in the tire it doesn't matter what type LT, ST or P nor does it matter what country it is made in.

[4X4Dodger]

Huntindog wrote:

rbpru wrote:
There are over a million ST tires use annually just on TTs and 5vers, not to mention horse trailers, cargo trailers, utility trailers etc. plus the stores that service the farm and ranch market.

The ST tire world extends far beyond our little TT corner of the world.

Are you suggesting that the ST tire sales are anywhere close to LT tire sales?

If I may add:

The issue is that with the Millions of ST Tires IN USE just in the USA the numbers of failures represent a MINUSCULE percentage that is statistically irrelevant. ie. Nothing can be learned or assumed by it.

By and large tires OF ALL kinds are very reliable and rarely fail. If used properly, kept properly inflated, and not overloaded. Those by the way are the NTHSA's own list of what constitutes most failures.

NOT manufacturing defects.

[Huntindog]

rbpru wrote:
There are over a million ST tires use annually just on TTs and 5vers, not to mention horse trailers, cargo trailers, utility trailers etc. plus the stores that service the farm and ranch market.

The ST tire world extends far beyond our little TT corner of the world.

Are you suggesting that the ST tire sales are anywhere close to LT tire sales?

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

🙂 Hi, my trailer is eleven years old and has been towed many tens of thousands of miles. I have never had a blow out, or even a flat. I have never used my spare tire. After three years of use, I found two Marathons with sidewall bubbles. (one small bubble on each tire) At seven years I spotted two Marathons which were starting to separate. These tires were replaced right after noticing the defects. All of the failed Marathons were Canadian made. None of my Chinese ST tires have ever failed.


CANADIAN BOMBS???????

[rbpru]

There are over a million ST tires use annually just on TTs and 5vers, not to mention horse trailers, cargo trailers, utility trailers etc. plus the stores that service the farm and ranch market.

The ST tire world extends far beyond our little TT corner of the world.

[4X4Dodger]

What irritates me about this debate is that there is this unrealistic and unfounded belief by some that somehow ANY LT tire is superior to ANY ST tire.

This is just nonsense.

Are there LT tires that will perform admirably on your trailer? YES!

But NOT ALL will.

Are there bad ST tires out there? Yes! Made all over the world not JUST in China.

But there are, by their sheer numbers alone many more bad LT tires also made all over the world.

I think it's interesting to note that the Cheerleaders of the LT-is ALWAYS-better group NEVER worry about WHERE their LT Tires are made. In Fact Many are made...you guessed it...in China.

But when it comes to CHINA the only thing that matters is trailer tires?? hmmmm.

What this debate lacks on the side of the LT Cheerleaders (Evangelists) is NUANCE, Reason and the realization that at the foundation of their argument is a HUGE inconsistency. ERGO: LT Tires made in China are superior to ST tires made in China.

There are ST tires with higher speed and load ratings that equal LT's but this fact is ignored by those who see this as a zero-sum game. LTs...My way or the highway.

[JIMNLIN]

A BFG KO/2 ?? On a trailer ?
LT tires used on trailer is the op subject line and the KO/2 isn't a tire that has been recommended for trailer service.
Keep in mind there were about 36 million LT tires sold vs one million ST tires in '14 per Tireman9 rvtiresafety.com tire blog.

The ST vs LT tire debate is about what we use on our trailers.

[ChuckNTruck]

Just to throw my ST experience into this wonderful tire debate.... I bought my Heartland Sundance XLT TT New in March of this year. The tires are dated 43rd week of 15 with a rating of 100/96L. On my first road trip from Texas to Wisconsin one of the factory Rainer ST tires developed a split in the tread. I always check my tire psi and temps when i stop for fuel, so I thought maybe i had ran over something and cut the tire. I just tossed it in the back of the truck and threw the spare on. Once i got home from the road trip i pulled the other tires to check them. The 4 others all have what looks like dry rot cracking already appearing in the tread. These tires never went over 65mph, never ran low psi, and never ran hot. So there is some quality control issues going on!
So since i somehow got lucky on the first one and it just deflated i decided to swap them all to LTs. It took some work and i had to swap to 15in wheels. But this is not the first ST tire i have had issues with, so i want to try something different.
BTW the LT have a 112MPH speed rating and gave me 220lbs more per tire on the load rating.

[RinconVTR]

I recently switched from P to LT on my SUV. Absolute overkill, but I have my (silly) reasons for doing so, we'll see if it actually "pays off".

So anyway, my point is that I did a lot of searching on the tire I bought. And you know what, it didn't matter what brand and model tire I searched for...I found major problems with every single one.

For the LT tire I bought..BFG KO2...there are countless reports of blow outs, tread separation, and too balance problems to count. Should I not have bought this tire? Well, then what should I have purchased, if I can find failure reports on everything I search for.

You all think that some minimum testing standard you found on the internet will protect your trailer running LT's vs ST's is an extreme false reality. It's time to get a clue people, you don't know what OEM's are actually testing to. And you never will.

Practically everything you buy that is made by man, can fail. Even your food "MADE IN THE USA" can fail you.

[dadmomh]

I hate to tell you, but there will never be an end to the "China Bomb" thread. We came on the forum back in the summer of '06 and it was alive and well then. Usually runs rampant in the early camping season and then pops up again from time to time. We bought our HTT new and then our '13 TT new. The HTT came OEM with Greenball Transmasters. When we replaced them, we'd had perfect service and replaced with the same. Just before we traded to the '13 we were planning a longer trip and in the interest of mind-at-rest, we replaced again. Then made the trade. No idea what was on the '13, but performed perfectly. We sold it in '15 and are now out of camping. Yes, we still have the desire, just issues that make it impossible again. Strongly suggest you never, ever use the phrase "in budget" when talking tires. I made that mistake ONCE and never did it again. I know, for some, the words budget, retirement and fixed income all have meaning. I got eaten alive by those who suggested we were just trying to kill our family off and we might as well just buy the cheapest we could find. No, it wasn't pleasant and didn't contribute to the discussion. Point being, from summer '06 until spring '15 both of our trailers had tires made in China and perfect performance. We know folks who have had problems with various brands also imported. DH was adamant about checking pressure and torque before every trip and daily if a longer trip. Whatever the difference, he felt that attention to detail may have made a difference. Good luck, and don't say "budget".

[4X4Dodger]

dewey02 wrote:
Based on his record in predicting that the China Bomb debate is put to rest, I don't even want to know the OP's predictions on sporting events, the presidential race, or even which way someone's toilet paper comes off the roll.

There are people who still believe the world is flat. Did the OP think he would really convince everyone with his post?

Dodger, You are no Jean Dixon...well, based on her prediction record...maybe you are!

If you had a chance to read my other posts on this thread you would have seen that the Title refers NOT to the ST/LT debate but rather to those who thought MAXXIS tires were NOT Made in China by a Chinese Company and urged newcomers here to dump perfectly good tires and buy a set of MAXXIS because their trailer came with a set of CB's...That is what the title referred to.

Also as I said in a later post part of the titles' wording was to get your attention...and given the results I think it succeeded.

Do I seriously consider the well of deep thinkers and open minded individuals on this site to be such that anything anyone says, no matter how based in facts and reason and backed by sources posted here will actually change some of these minds...no I do not. But hopefully it has opened some doors and it will make people think twice before taking the advice of some here who just plainly refuse to even acknowledge that there is reasonable doubt about this issue and admit that there is another side to the story.

PS...By the way I have predicted the last 4 presidential elections correctly during the PRIMARIES. 🙂

[4X4Dodger]

Huntindog wrote:
One more pretty obvious thing to me... Your info talks about light trucks having a higher percentage of tire problems than passenger cars.

But what is missing is that most light trucks are of the 1/2 ton variety. And they often (maybe always) come with "P" tires.

I think you misread the Rule: It is addressing the accidents caused by LT tires on light vehicles and the failure rate of LT TIRES.

That is a significant difference.