To delete or not to delete ?

[brooks379]

I had a problem with my wife’s car the other day and took it to a repair shop . As I was talking to the tech about it I noticed they had a F450 6.7 Powerstroke fire truck in a bay with the whole exhaust pipe, DEF tank off the truck. He said the fire truck ideled a lot and was not running right so they were deleting it, it only had 30,000 miles on it but being a fire truck it needed to sit and idle a lot. They saw my F350 6.7 and said it would be just a matter of time before I would need a new DPF exhaust system and said for $1700 they would delete it or when it goes for $5000 they would replace it factory new. Never had a problem with it but that got me thinking......anyone have their truck deleted ? They said it would run better, get better mpg, no DEF or regen. I told them I will think about it.

[brulaz]

ShinerBock wrote:

...
NOx is only bad if it stays stuck in the troposphere like it does over population dense areas on hot days. In less populated areas and in cooler climates, it has a chance to dissipate into the stratosphere which is a good thing since it is an ozone gas that is also produced naturally. NOx in troposphere = Bad // NOx in stratosphere = Good
...

Section "10.2.2 Nitrogen oxide radicals (NOx)" of this book:Introduction to Atmospheric Chemistry, says that there is some ozone loss in the stratosphere from NOx catalyzed reactions. But that the source of NOx there is N2O coming up from ground level, not the NOx itself coming up.

But I'm no atmospheric chemist, and much of what's in the book is meaningless to me. Still it might be of interest.

Many rural areas still have enough clean air left to handle NOx and other pollutants without major problems like smog. Like they used to say: "dilution is the solution to pollution". But the amount of clean air, like water, is getting less and less.

[ShinerBock]

Grit dog wrote:
This is the most law abiding group of citizens I’ve ever rubbed elbows with! Except for Shiner, he should be in jail, lol!

I know, right. Half these people are acting like they would not turn into felons overnight if the federal government outlaws alcohol again like they did in the 30's. Or outlawed guns. I can grantee that more than handful of these law abiding citizens would gladly turn into felons if they did that.

[ShinerBock]

Bedlam wrote:
I do my best at being compliant so that I can roll that big old RV rather than coal. I have seen the effects of lack of regulation in other parts of the world, so I know some level of control is required, but everyone should pull their fair share rather making a target few reduce their emissions for everyone else that does not. It would great if a biosphere existed for those choosing to delete - It would allow them the choice with consequences that come with it yet not affect the majority that are compliant.

Do you also say the same for those driving older pre-2003 emissions vehicles that emit more than a modern deleted diesel and refuse to get a newer vehicle with better emissions? Or how about those that refuse to move away from the conveniences of a population dense area which intensifies NOx production especially in warm climates. Or what about the people driving direct injection gas engines that emit about the same particulate matter as a deleted diesel?

NOx is only bad if it stays stuck in the troposphere like it does over population dense areas on hot days. In less populated areas and in cooler climates, it has a chance to dissipate into the stratosphere which is a good thing since it is an ozone gas that is also produced naturally. NOx in troposphere = Bad // NOx in stratosphere = Good

I recycle religiously(grew up on a farm so am used to it) and volunteer multiple times a year for CCA to clean my state's coasts and lakes. Does that mean I should lecture those who doesn't do the same as me because they are not doing their fair share?

[skidooman93]

From experience here working with manufacturers and extended warranty companies, doing inspections for 11 years on anything with an engine. You are setting yourself up for headaches if you delete. In the short term you may save money but in the long run if you don't run the truck until it is dead, and have the carcass eventually taken to the junk yard its going to cost you more money at the end. When you go to sell your truck, it is illegal to sell it to anyone with a modified emissions system. And fines are very steep now days. If you trade it in, the dealer weather it is a used dealer or new dealer must have the emissions system all intact when reselling. In many cases keeping your old exhaust system isn't all that is needed. Def injectors quit working from sitting, egr valves seize up from not moving, nox sensors get corroded from not being heated, Def pumps quit. So even after the dealer installs your old exhaust they end up having to replace much of it just to get it to work again. Which in turn costs you lots.

My suggestion if you plan on trading or selling the truck in the future don't delete it. Or understand when you do go to sell it and move on its probably going to cost you lots to fix it. Or wait until there is an actual problem with the system then decide weather it is worth it to fix or delete at that time. Unless you are having fun wuth your truck and willing to spend money on it as a hobby, just leave it stock.

[Bedlam]

I do my best at being compliant so that I can roll that big old RV rather than coal. I have seen the effects of lack of regulation in other parts of the world, so I know some level of control is required, but everyone should pull their fair share rather making a target few reduce their emissions for everyone else that does not. It would great if a biosphere existed for those choosing to delete - It would allow them the choice with consequences that come with it yet not affect the majority that are compliant.

[Grit_dog]

This is the most law abiding group of citizens I’ve ever rubbed elbows with! Except for Shiner, he should be in jail, lol!
IMO, delete/don’t delete, who cares???
If you’re out to save the planet, pulling a big rv with a big diesel truck ain’t how you get that done!
When I have to step down to a new diesel (from an emissions standpoint), I’ll keep the exhaust in tact until it becomes an issue or breaks out of warranty. Then let the coal roll, as long as I don’t have to register it in a area that tests.

And I’d rather have a fireman they was breaking the emissions laws than one sitting in a truck in limp mode when I need a fire truck! Btw, if you know where Lincoln Co NM is, no one there cares and pretty much no one goes there unless they already live there or have to be there.

[cummins2014]

ShinerBock wrote:
I don't think anyone believes they are exempt from emissions.

However, I do think it is funny that someone driving an older pre 2003 with original emissions equipment brow beating a deleted modern truck when they are probably emitting way more than the deleted modern diesel. They don't know that the effectiveness of catalytic converters degrade over time and that the emissions standards of their vehicle was way less stringent than today.

They also don't know that due to VG turbos, better turbo efficiency, common rail, more injection events, higher fuel pressures, and cam profiles made for emissions; a modern deleted diesel emits less than a pre-2003 or even some pre-2007 diesels because these were all things added to specifically reduce emissions. I know that a deleted Cummins 6.7L on a stock tune emits less than a stock pre 2007.5 5.9L Cummins.

In places like California where the climate, geography, and population warrants tighter emissions because the NOx just stagnates in the troposphere and cannot dissipate into the stratosphere where it is good ozone; then I can see the effectiveness of these laws. Although population density does the most harm in regards to NOx, but people in places like southern California are not willing to move or spread out yet they will not hesitate to lecture people from other areas about their emissions.

You find humor in breaking the law, so what is your point here on this post. Where is it okay to delete these trucks.

[ShinerBock]

I don't think anyone believes they are exempt from emissions.

However, I do think it is funny that someone driving an older pre 2003 with original emissions equipment brow beating a deleted modern truck when they are probably emitting way more than the deleted modern diesel. They don't know that the effectiveness of catalytic converters degrade over time and that the emissions standards of their vehicle was way less stringent than today.

They also don't know that due to VG turbos, better turbo efficiency, common rail, more injection events, higher fuel pressures, and cam profiles made for emissions; a modern deleted diesel emits less than a pre-2003 or even some pre-2007 diesels because these were all things added to specifically reduce emissions. I know that a deleted Cummins 6.7L on a stock tune emits less than a stock pre 2007.5 5.9L Cummins.

In places like California where the climate, geography, and population warrants tighter emissions because the NOx just stagnates in the troposphere and cannot dissipate into the stratosphere where it is good ozone; then I can see the effectiveness of these laws. Although population density does the most harm in regards to NOx, but people in places like southern California are not willing to move or spread out yet they will not hesitate to lecture people from other areas about their emissions.

[cummins2014]

ShinerBock wrote:
****, I am a criminal.;)

What is the next thing they are going to go after to make me even more of a criminal?

Break some more laws, and find out. You seem to find some humor in it, so you shouldn't mind.

[Bedlam]

I set my speed based on those signs unless conditions warrant slower. I'm not in rush to get into an accident - Yes, people are annoyed I travel at or bellow the limit, but I drive in the right lane or use pull offs if five vehicles stack up behind me on two-lane roads.

Someone that feels they are exempt from following emission restrictions, should have their vehicle impounded. Fines should be set high enough that arguments about higher mileage or increased engine longevity will be negated by the penalty imposed and should cover environmental reclamation from the pollution released.

[goducks10]

So is driving 1 mph over the speed limit illegal? Don't we all do that? I guess one mans illegal is another mans legal.

[ShinerBock]

****, I am a criminal.;)

What is the next thing they are going to go after to make me even more of a criminal?

[Ron3rd]

N-Trouble wrote:
Deleting is typically a DIY endeavor. “A shop” advertising to perform a delete is at risk of serious fines and loosing their business license. Wonder how long they have been in business.

It's a violation of Federal law.

[FishOnOne]

If it isn't broke don't fix it. I would leave well enough alone.

Having said that these 6.7PSD deleted are some real impressive sounding engines.

[rjstractor]

kw/00 wrote:
Deleting the exhaust system on the fire truck...... huh.... ok so let me just add to what the shop is doing wrong... first the only trucks exempt from emissions are the military. I can tell you from fact that our fire service can't delete and emissions unless we get the good old gov to let it happen. Despite all of the ongoing regen issues we can't still have any... repeat any of our fire service trucks deleted... EPA would have a field day. Military can however since those trucks are used throughout the world. As far as the 6.7 having any need for a delete, I don't see the reason. They seem better now then other models in the past. If u do delete keep all your parts cause u will need to put them back on prior selling the truck. And of course the shop wants you to delete it. Not only because they make money on parts and installing but they sell your deleted system on the other market and make money there.....that my experience and my opinion only. I know that in Florida, you can't trade in a truck with a deleted system. The dealer can't resell unless they put the system back in... of course they take full advantage of a deleted truck and charge u the bill or severely drop ur trade in value to reinstall the system.

Exactly. Why a fire service organization would jeopardize any federal funding they may get for violating emission laws is beyond me. Also, emergency vehicles do get an exemption on dpf regeneration, in other words they are allowed to program the vehicle to not go into limp mode when the dpf needs cleaning. But whomever specced that truck hopefully ordered with with the option of stationary regeneration. Regardless of how the truck is used, they should not have to delete it to keep it running right. My department has a 2009 F550 rescue with the 6.4, and despite it only getting driven 1000 miles a year we have never had an emissions related problem with it.