Travel Trailer Purchase - Quality

[tkwoodcock]

Hey guys I have a question that I'm sure everybody has been asked but alot of what I have seen is at least a couple years old. We are in the market for a TT. We currently have a 1983 Palomino MXL Popup but are ready to upgrade to a full size TT. Camping in the south with no AC has not been the greatest experience.
We have a 2012 Toyota Tundra 5.7/V8 rated at 10,300. We are looking at bunkhouse models in the 28' to 34' range. I really like the Jayco Flights namely the 29QBS but have heard alot of horror stories on build quality. Has anyone else had any bad experiences? We are also looking at the APEX line as a possibility but don't know much about them. I haven't seen a lot of Palominos around our area but I know out old pop up has been good. Does anyone have any experience with their Puma or Solaire Lines a friend of mine said to steer clear of them but I want more than one opinion. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

Happy Camping

[jessjosh61]

You should also take a look at the Livin Lite Camplite series of trailers. They have 2 bunkhouse models that on paper look to be light enough for you.

[rmnpcolorado]

After owning Jaycos for over 10 years, one would think that would be the brand I would purchase again. My thoughts though on travel trailers is that it all depends on how you're going to use it. We are in ours on average over 30 nights a year. With what I've seen from our Jayco, I would say they are NOT built for that kind of use, which is ridiculous for what they cost. Take a look at Lance. Push on the Azdel walls, look at the construction, look behind the outside fluff and see how things are put together. I put Jayco in the top of the lower level class, which to me includes Forest River products, Coleman, Dutchmen, etc. Lances hit another price point, but to me you get what you pay for.

[Hunterred]

The ones I looked at, the Coleman and the Kodak were, in my opinion, nicer than the apex. Never owned one but would buy one if it fit my needs for the right price, they certainly look the part and have been around long enough they should have it figured out by now.

[tkwoodcock]

Hunterred wrote:
We have the 29QBS. The dry weight was 7556. Loaded for a week it is 9200 with a hitch weight of 1230. Our payload is 1985 on our truck and we were running 92% of the GVWR that day. We also had 100 gallons of water on board though. Best to weigh them the heaviest they will be.

That being said, with only 1350 payload, your truck will most likely be overloaded with a 29 QBS. I would say you want to stay in the 6500 GVWR for a trailer that will be around 800 lbs tongue weight. When you do the math your weight distribution hitch will likely only transfer its own weight and a bit more so don't use the weight transfer as a cusion. Just run % of GVWR for your math.

Jayco makes a good product. We have had our issues with it but overall a decent trailer. It is definitely heavier than most others with that floorplan I will say. I would recommend Jayco, in your case maybe look at the white hawk line.
We looked at the apex, wasn't for us, seemed cheaper than most and the salesman I asked said they don't seem to move many of them when people walk through 5 or 6 they usually feel it is lesser quality than the others, however, they are still making them so people are buying them so they must like them. If we all liked the same thing there would only be 1 manufacturer... It would most likely be Jayco:)

http://kz-rv.com/spree-connect/C250BHS.html
http://www.dutchmen.com/kodiak/floorplans-and-pictures/floorplans-detail?modelId=4938
http://www.dutchmen.com/kodiak/floorplans-and-pictures/floorplans-detail?modelId=4940
http://www.heartlandrvs.com/classes/lightweight/wd-wilderness#!dview=modeldetail&c=lightweight&sc=WD&m=534&cidx=5&ajax=?

Have a look at those, it's what I would be looking at with your truck.
Let us know how you make out.

Thanks for the info, I have never heard of the Dutchmen campers they look pretty nice, around here everything seems to be Outbacks and Jayco's I'll have to try and find one to look at are they pretty good in your opinion?

[legolas]

Danattherock wrote:
You won't be safely towing anything near 10,000 lbs in a Tundra. With associated tongue weight you will run out of payload long, long, before that. I barked up this tree recently and discoverd the Tundra, like all other 1/2 ton trucks and SUV's are limited by their low payload ratings. Otherwise, we would have bought the Tundra special edition 1794 we saw. Amazing truck that impressed us more than any we have seen. Sans having payload slightly higher than that of a Walmart electric scooter. The several new Tundras I saw had payload stickers showing 1300-1400 lbs!!

As for quality, good luck man. We all have different views on what quality means. To say this is subjective would be putting it lightly. My wife and I have infant, toddler, and German shepherd. We are buying first camper and have looked all over NC at various models. My humble opinion is that nearly all white boxes are of questionable quality.

Arctic Fox has better reputation than most, but I haven't been able to see any in person. We love the Evergreen Element. Big front glass, unique design for sure. Looks similar to the discontinued Aviator. Which we loved by the way, fell in love with it online till I discovered it was discontinued in 2013 ish.

My biggest issue, my parents had a new 2000 34' Airstream Classic. Had I not spent time in it, I would likely already own a camper. But Airstreams are unquestionably the highest quality travel trailer you can buy. They are in a class of their own. Avoid the haters and crayon eaters that talk junk about Airstream. Jealousy seems a primary motivator in many cases.

Pricey, yes. Over priced, most would say yes, if not factoring in length of ownership. Read average white box is sold after 4-6 years by average first time buyer. Airstream was 18-20 years on average. The more I learned about a Airstream the more clear my decision to buy one became. They are a love it or hate it thing. An American icon either way.

Might be worth your time to ride over to Out Of Doors Mart near Winston Salem and take a look see. We were up there yesterday comparing floor plans. The 30' Serenity custom ordered with twins is at top of our want list at this point. Lots of info on Airforums. Great folks too.


Dan

I looked at Airstreams once upon a time. The deal breaker for me was no slides. At one point they made a few with slides but stopped. Main reason is that slides introduce the possibility of leaks. For me "no slides = no deal" not enough room certaainluy for the cost.

[Hunterred]

We have the 29QBS. The dry weight was 7556. Loaded for a week it is 9200 with a hitch weight of 1230. Our payload is 1985 on our truck and we were running 92% of the GVWR that day. We also had 100 gallons of water on board though. Best to weigh them the heaviest they will be.

That being said, with only 1350 payload, your truck will most likely be overloaded with a 29 QBS. I would say you want to stay in the 6500 GVWR for a trailer that will be around 800 lbs tongue weight. When you do the math your weight distribution hitch will likely only transfer its own weight and a bit more so don't use the weight transfer as a cusion. Just run % of GVWR for your math.

Jayco makes a good product. We have had our issues with it but overall a decent trailer. It is definitely heavier than most others with that floorplan I will say. I would recommend Jayco, in your case maybe look at the white hawk line.
We looked at the apex, wasn't for us, seemed cheaper than most and the salesman I asked said they don't seem to move many of them when people walk through 5 or 6 they usually feel it is lesser quality than the others, however, they are still making them so people are buying them so they must like them. If we all liked the same thing there would only be 1 manufacturer... It would most likely be Jayco:)

http://kz-rv.com/spree-connect/C250BHS.html
http://www.dutchmen.com/kodiak/floorplans-and-pictures/floorplans-detail?modelId=4938
http://www.dutchmen.com/kodiak/floorplans-and-pictures/floorplans-detail?modelId=4940
http://www.heartlandrvs.com/classes/lightweight/wd-wilderness#!dview=modeldetail&c=lightweight&sc=WD&m=534&cidx=5&ajax=?

Have a look at those, it's what I would be looking at with your truck.
Let us know how you make out.

[Iraqvet05]

Opie431 wrote:
I do not think it is the Jayco line but the Flights that are not as good as people hope. I have known two people who got rid of their flights as they were very disappointed.

Given the minor issues I have had with mine in 2.5 years, I would not hesitate to buy another Flight.

[tkwoodcock]

Danattherock wrote:

tkwood**** wrote:

APT wrote:
A WDH is required over about 600 pounds of tongue weight on every half ton I have seen. If you adjust the WDH such that 100% of front axle weight is restored, then only about 80% of loaded TW should be accounted for in payload. But dry weight will go up, as will dry TW.

Take your 1380 pounds of payload and subtract however much you an family weighs. Maybe that's 300 pounds or 800 pounds - you do not have to disclose. 1380-500=880 pounds for trailer TW. I'd look closer to 650 dry then.

Get a WDH with integrated sway control and learn how to adjust it.

Ok I feel a little better now I was beginning to think the only thing I could tow would be something less than about 5000 lbs.

SO If i'm understanding it correct, and I apologize if I'm not, I need to keep my tongue weight from the TT around say 650 to give me some payload room under the 1380 limit. I need to make sure then that the trailer is not more than about 6000 to 6500 lbs to keep it within the safety margin of the 9000 lbs capacity listed in the owners manual to account for cargo, water and such.

Towing the popup at only 1400 lbs this was not an issue.

There is no way in hell I would consider towing 9,000 lbs with a 1/2 ton truck safe. I realize, that's not what your saying you will do, just being Capt Obvious here. You are smart enough to be doing research, which is why I'm here too.

But I would continue to give lots of consideration to the max I would tow. Nor am I implying you got bad advice before me, just suggesting you continue the conversation with yourself and others.

Just because it's in print, doesn't mean you should do it. Driving down straight interstate, maybe not an issue. However, a Ford Excursion flipped last week in Nash County carrying a 30' white box and it was on a straight section of highway from what I saw on the news.

But think of all the real life issues that could arise. Transfer truck blows your doors off, you barely go over a low shoulder for whatever reason, up and especially down steep grades, slippery road conditions, a tire blows out at 64 mph, braking hard and changing direction to avoid a car pulling out in front of you while going highway speeds, etc.

I lack the experience to answer your question, but have a few questions you need to get answered. And not from folks towing with Tundras. It's a well known fact that they have an over inflated sense of what the truck is capable of and the vast majority that are towing larger travel trailers are overloaded. That's an absolute fact, but I have no proof.


How much the actual WD hitch itself will detract from payload. 100 lbs? More?

How much your camper will actually weigh loaded, which will be far more than manufacturers advertised dry weight.

How much the actual hitch weight will be, again, known to be much higher than manufacturers website. I've heard from many folks it can be hundreds of pounds more.

Being honest with yourself, add weight of any and all gear you will carry in truck bed or cab. That added to all human weight, including driver, added to the actual tongue weight, not advertised tongue weight, and the weight of the WD hitch itself, will give you a better idea on where you stand with payload.

Heard it a million times lately, it's not whether the truck will pull a trailer, it's whether or not it will stop it. Seeing the cause of so many accidents involve, braking, decelerating, going downhill, downhill around curve, etc. It is something I recently gave lots of thought to.

And I was joking about Tundras, their owners just have big buttons sometimes, I like pushing. We saw and loved the Tundra 1794, but payload wasn't near enough.


Dan

Dan, I appreciate all the info it's alot of stuff to understand. I started looking last night at different models and manufacturers, there are some out there that have about half the tongue weight and are only about 4500 lbs but seem to have just as much room. The Coachmen Apex Ultra-Lites look to be more like what we should be looking at. I think I got carried away with the the bells and whistles instead of practicality. I have a buddy who has a custom utility trailer that I think I'm going to load up with different weights behind the Tundra and see how it pulls and stops to see how it will tow.

[tkwoodcock]

APT wrote:
Towing an RV is hard work for the truck. Towing a 9000 pound boat will be easier than a 6000 pound travel trailer. The Tundra has a great powertrain, but handling and stability comfort level for towing 8000 pound loaded TT is not what I recommend for someone's first big tow. Many people get aa little too much trailer to comfortable tow and then upgrade the truck later. That gets more costly than being realistic about weights.

The Jayflight line has more traditional materials which are heaver than many other lines. Have you considered lighter brands? Something similar in floorplan to the Jayco 29 can be had for closer to 5500 pounds dry.

I spent a good deal of time last night looking at some other brands the Coachmen APEX line seemed to have a lot of what we were looking for with dry weights of between 4200 and 5300 lbs and the tongue weights are about half the Jayco's The construction looks to be about on par with everything else. I think I was just looking big and shiny instead of practical. We may need to tone down what we're looking for. I'd like to buy a camper that will be good to camp in for the foreseeable future. Not in the mood to get one every four or five years because it falls apart.

[Opie431]

I do not think it is the Jayco line but the Flights that are not as good as people hope. I have known two people who got rid of their flights as they were very disappointed.

[2012Coleman]

Find a local CAT scale, load the Tundra up as if your going camping, and get it weighed.

Calculate tongue weight of a TT your considering as 12% of it's gross weight.

And remember, payload will be exceeded before the tow capacity of your Tundra. Good luck.

[APT]

Towing an RV is hard work for the truck. Towing a 9000 pound boat will be easier than a 6000 pound travel trailer. The Tundra has a great powertrain, but handling and stability comfort level for towing 8000 pound loaded TT is not what I recommend for someone's first big tow. Many people get aa little too much trailer to comfortable tow and then upgrade the truck later. That gets more costly than being realistic about weights.

The Jayflight line has more traditional materials which are heaver than many other lines. Have you considered lighter brands? Something similar in floorplan to the Jayco 29 can be had for closer to 5500 pounds dry.

[Danattherock]

tkwood**** wrote:

APT wrote:
A WDH is required over about 600 pounds of tongue weight on every half ton I have seen. If you adjust the WDH such that 100% of front axle weight is restored, then only about 80% of loaded TW should be accounted for in payload. But dry weight will go up, as will dry TW.

Take your 1380 pounds of payload and subtract however much you an family weighs. Maybe that's 300 pounds or 800 pounds - you do not have to disclose. 1380-500=880 pounds for trailer TW. I'd look closer to 650 dry then.

Get a WDH with integrated sway control and learn how to adjust it.

Ok I feel a little better now I was beginning to think the only thing I could tow would be something less than about 5000 lbs.

SO If i'm understanding it correct, and I apologize if I'm not, I need to keep my tongue weight from the TT around say 650 to give me some payload room under the 1380 limit. I need to make sure then that the trailer is not more than about 6000 to 6500 lbs to keep it within the safety margin of the 9000 lbs capacity listed in the owners manual to account for cargo, water and such.

Towing the popup at only 1400 lbs this was not an issue.

There is no way in hell I would consider towing 9,000 lbs with a 1/2 ton truck safe. I realize, that's not what your saying you will do, just being Capt Obvious here. You are smart enough to be doing research, which is why I'm here too.

But I would continue to give lots of consideration to the max I would tow. Nor am I implying you got bad advice before me, just suggesting you continue the conversation with yourself and others.

Just because it's in print, doesn't mean you should do it. Driving down straight interstate, maybe not an issue. However, a Ford Excursion flipped last week in Nash County carrying a 30' white box and it was on a straight section of highway from what I saw on the news.

But think of all the real life issues that could arise. Transfer truck blows your doors off, you barely go over a low shoulder for whatever reason, up and especially down steep grades, slippery road conditions, a tire blows out at 64 mph, braking hard and changing direction to avoid a car pulling out in front of you while going highway speeds, etc.

I lack the experience to answer your question, but have a few questions you need to get answered. And not from folks towing with Tundras. It's a well known fact that they have an over inflated sense of what the truck is capable of and the vast majority that are towing larger travel trailers are overloaded. That's an absolute fact, but I have no proof.


How much the actual WD hitch itself will detract from payload. 100 lbs? More?

How much your camper will actually weigh loaded, which will be far more than manufacturers advertised dry weight.

How much the actual hitch weight will be, again, known to be much higher than manufacturers website. I've heard from many folks it can be hundreds of pounds more.

Being honest with yourself, add weight of any and all gear you will carry in truck bed or cab. That added to all human weight, including driver, added to the actual tongue weight, not advertised tongue weight, and the weight of the WD hitch itself, will give you a better idea on where you stand with payload.

Heard it a million times lately, it's not whether the truck will pull a trailer, it's whether or not it will stop it. Seeing the cause of so many accidents involve, braking, decelerating, going downhill, downhill around curve, etc. It is something I recently gave lots of thought to.

And I was joking about Tundras, their owners just have big buttons sometimes, I like pushing. We saw and loved the Tundra 1794, but payload wasn't near enough.


Dan

[Terryallan]

westend wrote:

hvac wrote:
My suggestion is simple. They all leak. So find a unit with no wood. Not even the floor.

-1 X, mine doesn't leak.

Mine neither, and neither did my previous 04 Fleetwood. In ten years of sitting out in the weather. It NEVER once leaked. Maybe you should return yours.