Wagner rotors and severe duty pads?

[Atlee]

Just got my truck inspected. The front brakes are nearly shot. The rear pads have over 50% of their life left.

I had already planned to put new pads at least on the truck before heading out to the Rockies next June. Now, I will be doing it sooner rather than later.

Let also say I'm not a mechanic. I will not be doing the brake work myself. I know it's much cheaper, but a man has to know his limitations.

My truck is a 2014 F150 XLT, SCAB, 4x4, long bed with Max Tow and Heavy Duty PP. I pull a 6500# GVWR trailer about 50% of the time.

I went to 3 installers the other day. My Ford dealer was going to charge $700 for turned roters, new servere duty pads, and a brake fluid flush.

The second place said $350 for the same service, but I got no print out of those prices, and the young guy behind the counter struck me as tripping on something. No confidence there.

The third place gave me a print out with the prices for brand new Wagner rotors and severe duty pads, and a fluid flush with heavy duty Dot 4 fluid for $500.

I'm inclined to go with #3. Just wondering if the Wagner rotors and severe duty pads are quality parts, and if $500 is out of the ball park?

Thanks.

[fj12ryder]

babock wrote:
...I guess I don't get it...

I guess not, but cheap and lazy simply don't figure into it.

[BenK]

Agree with babock and add since the tire analogy seems to work for some...

It depends....

If one of my V rated passenger tires gets a nail on the RMA "repairable area", I'll either toss it or sell it with telling the buyer of why

It is no longer speed rated at V, but many, too many, will either not understand that or just say it is okay...

My life is worth more than any high speed rated tire...heck even H rated will have me noodle long and hard about patching from the inside (plug from inside and inside patch over that). As any H rated tire on any of my vehicles won't really be driven at that kind of speed...but a V or Z rated tired vehicle will be at those speeds...

In the old days...rotors did have enough mass to turn a 'bit' off and still have enough thermal mass to do the job 'well enough'...but today's rotors are designed so close that I'll not turn them on my performance vehicles (2 seater or the TV). My mini van, sure thing...it my trusted ASE Master mechanic says he will...otherwise not an expensive, to me, thing to get NAPA's best

Thermal mass both in absorbing heat and rejecting heat. Part of that mass structure is pathways to reject. Anyone hear of a brake disc 'heat dam' ? That is part of the thermal dynamics design of 'that' rotor

Know tend to get highly technical, but this/these threads are based on technology & science with healthy doses of out in the weeds stuff...

Anyone know the why of drilled and slotted rotors? Pure track stuff of just a few decades ago...where racers would toss and replace with new rotors every race.

I used to cut a gas slot on my pads both track time and street. The holes and slots are to allow the friction material that gets to hot it out-gasses.

That out-gas has high enough PSI to float the pads off the cast iron

That is the why of rotor holes, rotor slots and now mud hen and up pads come with a gas slot molded/cut into it right out of the box....to make rotor holes/slots redundant

Bit on cryo/slotted rotors ($1K each) back in the 90's for my Sub. Understand the science behind it...listened to one of my physicists...

They too heat checked badly after just a few thousand miles. Shoulda known better and that guy and I have talked about this. Missing was the very high temps reached, rate of change and back down over many, many, many cycles...cryo is NOT a good process for that...nor is it good for gun barrels, which has similar heat cycling

Again...it depends...and on my 'have to have list' is performance. Looks, ride quality, etc are on my 'nice to have list'. Braking is higher on the 'have to have list' than go...

QUALITY brake parts are repetitively cheap these days and most times the labor will cost more.

Going to be 70 next year and hoping to still do my own work...albeit less of the heavy stuff. Brakes...yup...gotta to that just to know I can and feel comfortable about the workmanship...

babock wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:
High quality doesn't have to mean "All New Parts". That's faulty reasoning. When you get a flat tie, just a simple small nail in the tread, do you throw the tire away and buy a new one since it is now damaged, or get it patched?

Ok..good analogy... I would compare getting a flat and having someone plug it from the outside vs taking the tire off and put the proper patch on the inside of the tire vs turning a rotor on a brake job and just scuffing it.

I guess I don't get it...are people really that lazy that they don't want to pull the caliper and then the rotor? It takes all of a couple minutes. I drop off the rotor at a place that is close by and it's $10/rotor! Or is it a cost thing that you don't want to spend the $20? Has to be just laziness because the cost is minimal.

It's what any shop would do...it's what any dealer would do if you brought your vehicle in for a brake job. Why cut the corner when it's so simple and cheap?

[babock]

fj12ryder wrote:
High quality doesn't have to mean "All New Parts". That's faulty reasoning. When you get a flat tie, just a simple small nail in the tread, do you throw the tire away and buy a new one since it is now damaged, or get it patched?

Ok..good analogy... I would compare getting a flat and having someone plug it from the outside vs taking the tire off and put the proper patch on the inside of the tire vs turning a rotor on a brake job and just scuffing it.

I guess I don't get it...are people really that lazy that they don't want to pull the caliper and then the rotor? It takes all of a couple minutes. I drop off the rotor at a place that is close by and it's $10/rotor! Or is it a cost thing that you don't want to spend the $20? Has to be just laziness because the cost is minimal.

It's what any shop would do...it's what any dealer would do if you brought your vehicle in for a brake job. Why cut the corner when it's so simple and cheap?

[Cummins12V98]

By turning the rotors it allows for 100 percent pad contact first from the start and if done properly broken in.

[gkainz]

I guess I'm in the IRAN (Inspect and Repair/Replace As Needed) camp. If the rotor looks good, I'll clean it up and put on new pads. I'm still on the fence about turning vs replacing rotors tho ... still have a shop close to me that will turn them.

[fj12ryder]

babock wrote:

gmw photos wrote:
When your truck was new, the rotors were full thickness, with braking surfaces that were flat, parallel, and had the appropriate finish to help bed in the new pads.

If you expect the brake job to result in "as new" performance, this is likely the best way to accomplish this. Anything less is a compromise. Up to the individual to decide if the compromises are worth it to them.

Totally agree!

I used to be that guy that scuffed the rotors and did a pad slap. Stopped doing half Azzed brake jobs a long time ago. When I do work on my vehicles, I try to do a high quality job so I get maximum performance and don't have to "fix" it by going in a second time.

High quality doesn't have to mean "All New Parts". That's faulty reasoning. When you get a flat tie, just a simple small nail in the tread, do you throw the tire away and buy a new one since it is now damaged, or get it patched?

[Grit_dog]

Dave H M wrote:
All I learned here was a new term that applies to me, "pad slap".

It is a wonder i am still around just fixing things that need to be fixed. :h

It's ok. I'm a "pad slapper" , sometimes. Most of the time, unless more work is needed.

[whjco]

Cummins12V98 wrote:
99 Tahoe I put PowerSlot US made rotors and NAPA's Best Ceramic pads. In a short time the rotors warped. My brake/alignment guy for nearly 30 years said that was not the best application. He suggested GM OE pads and the rest is history.

I had a Ford E 350 on which I installed new rotors and ceramic pads. Never again! Horrible stopping power. I got rid of the ceramics and went back to OEM spec. pads and had far better performance. I also had another "experiment" with drilled and slotted rotors and high performance pads on a Ford Excursion I used to own. After a couple of hard stops, the rotors fractured between the holes. Went back to factory spec. rotors and pads and have found this to be absolutely the best (and safest) combination.

Sometimes we just can't "improve" on factory spec. brake components.

Bill J., Lexington, KY.

[babock]

gmw photos wrote:
When your truck was new, the rotors were full thickness, with braking surfaces that were flat, parallel, and had the appropriate finish to help bed in the new pads.

If you expect the brake job to result in "as new" performance, this is likely the best way to accomplish this. Anything less is a compromise. Up to the individual to decide if the compromises are worth it to them.

Totally agree!

I used to be that guy that scuffed the rotors and did a pad slap. Stopped doing half Azzed brake jobs a long time ago. When I do work on my vehicles, I try to do a high quality job so I get maximum performance and don't have to "fix" it by going in a second time.

[jus2shy]

Brake rotors have a minimum stamped into them on their thickness. If there's plenty of meat on the rotors, it's well worth the 10 bucks a piece to have them turned vs. replaced. I've always turned rotors when switching to a new pad material.

As for just a pad change. I'd do that if the rotor doesn't have any serious gouges or surface defects except just a little roughness. So long as I'm sticking with the same pad material.

[gmw_photos]

When your truck was new, the rotors were full thickness, with braking surfaces that were flat, parallel, and had the appropriate finish to help bed in the new pads.

If you expect the brake job to result in "as new" performance, this is likely the best way to accomplish this. Anything less is a compromise. Up to the individual to decide if the compromises are worth it to them.

[Grit_dog]

fj12ryder wrote:

babock wrote:
Most the time when people think they have warped rotors, it's actually the fault of not bedding in the new pads correctly. During bedding, there is a transfer of the pad material to the rotor. If the bedding wasn't done correctly, you will get areas of the disc that got it transferred and other areas that didn't. You get the pulsing brake pedal that feels like a warped rotor. That is also why it's so important to turn or use new rotors.

Your reasoning is a bit faulty, it seems to me. You say that the bedding in of new pads can cause pulsing if not done correctly. But that could happen with new or turned rotors, so used rotors should have little effect if the pads are bedded in correctly. If you feel that your brakes work better with all new parts, by all means go for it. Just don't advise others that it's necessary.

Pulsing brakes are a reason to change rotors. I've changed umpteen brake pads over the years and have never had a pulsing brake afterward. And I never change rotors without a reason.

True statements. Too many on here take "their" method as an absolute, when like all things in life, there are very few absolutes. Some people just don't like to have to analyze every situation separately and apply a one size fits all solution every time, be it overly conservative or a less than complete solution.

In a long line of vehicles sold at well over 100kmi, I've actually just put the first new set of rotors on a vehicle since probably 1995. Why? It's the first vehicle that has needed them.

Fwiw, for you mandatory rotor turners or changers, try just scuffing the rotors well the next time if they aren't pulsing or worn out. It works.
I do the same on my snowmachine clutches. Every year, scuff the sheaves real well. It brings back that loss of performance or friction and while it seems "rougher" on the belt, it actually preserves belt life through less slippage.

[rhagfo]

fj12ryder wrote:

babock wrote:
Most the time when people think they have warped rotors, it's actually the fault of not bedding in the new pads correctly. During bedding, there is a transfer of the pad material to the rotor. If the bedding wasn't done correctly, you will get areas of the disc that got it transferred and other areas that didn't. You get the pulsing brake pedal that feels like a warped rotor. That is also why it's so important to turn or use new rotors.

Your reasoning is a bit faulty, it seems to me. You say that the bedding in of new pads can cause pulsing if not done correctly. But that could happen with new or turned rotors, so used rotors should have little effect if the pads are bedded in correctly. If you feel that your brakes work better with all new parts, by all means go for it. Just don't advise others that it's necessary.

Pulsing brakes are a reason to change rotors. I've changed umpteen brake pads over the years and have never had a pulsing brake afterward. And I never change rotors without a reason.

Well we are all entitled to our opinions, and I am NOT a Just Slap I a Set of pads and call it a brake job either! All New parts equals, new performance.
JMHO

[Dave_H_M]

All I learned here was a new term that applies to me, "pad slap".

It is a wonder i am still around just fixing things that need to be fixed. :h