Winter weather without winterizing?

[bkenobi]

I've had my 2007 NL 10'2"QRR for around 1.5 years. Last winter the camper was at the dealer for some work and all they had me do was drain the water and run air through the system. Neither I nor they put coolant in the lines. I don't want to winterize it now since I do plan on using it over the next couple months for a few weekends but the weather right now is down into the mid-20's with highs in the 40's. I have an oil heater in the camper and all the cabinets open, but that doesn't circulate any air through the basement where the fresh water tank is located. Is there any way to keep things from getting too cold without running the HVAC? I was thinking that all that's needed is a way to circulate the air so perhaps using some kind of an inline duct booster fan attached to and sealed over the furnace outlet? Or, run an inline booster fan with a hose running down under the sink?

Right now I simply turned on the light in the tank drain compartment which adds around 4W right under the black tank. I don't think this is a sufficient solution if it gets really cold, it's just all I have at the moment.

We only get temps in the 20's for a couple weeks in November or December and then again in February time frame. Outside of that, we only see mid to upper 30's as a low. I really don't want to run the HVAC since it burns a lot of propane and puts hours on the furnace for no real reason though it would keep things from freezing.

[ticki2]

What you are calling humidity is actually relative humidity and is temperature dependent . Warm air can hold more moisture and will show lower percent of relative humidity for the same water content .

[Kayteg1]

I think well operating furnace dries the air.
I observe humidity in my house as it is always on low side.
This morning for example we have 40% outside, yet when in the morning furnace started, the interior humidity dropped from 27 to 26%.

[Photomike]

bkenobi wrote:
Based on the feedback here and my experience drying out my leak, I have come up with a solution that should work well for me.

I talked to the dealer, the camper mfg, and tried speaking to the furnace mfg (don't bother, Atwood won't help). The leak cleanup was dealt with by using a dehumidifier set to max and the blower running without the burner. Running propane added water to the camper which defeated the dehumidifier. A box fan circulated air over the leak but not throughout.

tl;dr: I added a SPST switch to the furnace which connects the blower to 12v. With the switch on and the blower running, I get good circulation throughout. I will place the oil heater in front of the furnace (also between the intake and exhaust) so everything will be heated evenly.

If your propane furnace is adding humidity to the air inside your unit you have a HUGE problem!!! Stop using your furnace immediately!!! A properly running furnace will vent all exhaust outside including the moisture that is in the propane. Zero moisture should be entering your unit from an RV furnace.

[bkenobi]

Based on the feedback here and my experience drying out my leak, I have come up with a solution that should work well for me.

I talked to the dealer, the camper mfg, and tried speaking to the furnace mfg (don't bother, Atwood won't help). The leak cleanup was dealt with by using a dehumidifier set to max and the blower running without the burner. Running propane added water to the camper which defeated the dehumidifier. A box fan circulated air over the leak but not throughout.

tl;dr: I added a SPST switch to the furnace which connects the blower to 12v. With the switch on and the blower running, I get good circulation throughout. I will place the oil heater in front of the furnace (also between the intake and exhaust) so everything will be heated evenly.

[Eric_Lisa]

burningman wrote:
I used to use regular 100-watt light bulbs, but they tended to burn out quickly and they seem to have disappeared these days anyway.

Hehehe, I saw the bullet in the air back when the Energy Independence Act 2007 was signed. Of course the light bulb manufacturers were all for the new law as they can charge a lot more for energy efficient bulbs today. Ace Hardware (and others) would put 100w bulbs on sale 4/$1. I bought all they had. I think I have around 800 left of various wattage out in the shop. Back then the only alternative was compact fluorescent. And those darn things hurt my eyes. Now LEDs are finally up to speed, so I may switch over eventually.

-Eric

[bkenobi]

Fwiw on the leak issue, I inspected around the propane enclosure and found GAPING holes in the sealant. I redid that area last spring, but apparently I did a terrible job. I'm pulling all the sealant out and will get a really good seal this time. I'm also going to redo the kitchen window seal too since it looks crumbly.

[burningman]

I’m in the Seattle area too. I’ve been just running a heat lamp in my camper during winter. It’s amazing how warm and dry the rig stays.
And I can see the glow... if I don’t see it, I know the bulb burned out.

I used to use regular 100-watt light bulbs, but they tended to burn out quickly and they seem to have disappeared these days anyway.

[bkenobi]

Thanks Eric, great input!

[Eric_Lisa]

bkenobi wrote:
...I really don't want to run the HVAC since it burns a lot of propane and puts hours on the furnace for no real reason though it would keep things from freezing.

Okay, you are in the Pacific NW. Here is my thinking....

We will typically get a couple of cold snaps each season. Time when it stays below freezing all day. We will have 4-7 days like that at a stretch, usually twice. Much more common is a nightly freeze and a daytime thaw. And damp, damp, damp, damp!

My suggestion is put an electric heater in the camper - which it sounds like you have already. Set it for 45 degrees or so. You can pick up a cheap box fan for a few bucks. Turn that on in the camper too. I am assuming all the water lines are internal to the camper (ie: in a cabinet, not running on the exterior). With the cabinet doors open they should stay above freezing just fine. That should also keep the air circulating around to all the nooks and crannies. Dampness causing mold it a potentially big problem too.

The concern you articulated is around not wanting to flush out the lines from antifreeze. I agree! Yuck, I don't want that anywhere near my water supply. It is, however, fair game (and pretty darn easy) to pour some down the drains. That will keep any P-traps that might be more exposed (shower drain?) from freezing. And, of course, you have emptied your gray/black tanks, so there is no risk of anything freezing there.

When we get the occasional cold snaps, just bite the bullet and turn on the propane heat. Okay, so maybe you burn through a tank or two. Whatever. It really isn't that expensive in the overall scheme of things.

And if you really want to become the forum expert on the subject.... Get an electronic weather gauge that records highs & lows. Put the indoor sensor next to a water line inside a cabinet, and have the outside one...outside. Keep track of the low temperatures on both, and report back here. My bet is you will be surprised how well the oil heater combined with a circulating fan will do.

FWIW.... I think you are much better off compared to putting antifreeze in the lines and then sealing it up for the winter. Circulating the air in this damp climate will really help keep the interior in overall good shape.

HTH!
-Eric

[jefe_4x4]

Just a caution about blowing out the lines with compressed air. The one place that keeps water, almost no matter what you do is the bottom end of the water pump. I've been caught a time or two not getting all the fluid out and the pump went south as a result. In winter, without a basement or much insulation, plus our ancient Lance Camper, we run it dry for the 3 or 4 deep winter months using minus 50 RV antifreeze to flush the toilet and bottled water in burst proof jugs. This is the way when you have a long in the tooth Lance with a 2700 pound loaded weight. Probably less without the 18 gallons of fresh.
jefe

[bkenobi]

It may be a good time to get an inspection camera. Funding the high point of tge water may be tough without pulling stove (not gonna happen). I'll start a new thread for the leak if it looks like I need more help.

[covered_wagon]

The leak in that area on my NL turned out to be the propane door hinge. It required drilling out the existing rivets, cleaning the area real good and reinstalling the hinge with sealant around each new rivet between the door frame and hinge.

That was the most difficult leak to find on my camper so I thought I'd mention....

[Camper8251]

If you can get behind the registers you can add a computer fan back there and put a toggle switch in, any 12v power source will work..... Personally I wouldn't mess with the wiring on the furnace itself, may short something out and it could void the warranty etc.

[bkenobi]

I got down and crawled around in the camper and found the return register under the stove. I pulled the vent off and then realized pulling the drawer accesses the same space. It looks like I could easily add a fan to the vent if I wanted.

After realizing how things were constructed, I removed some other drawers and found an extra spatula while inspecting the furnace lol... They installed an Atwood 7920-II furnace. That doesn't directly help, but it looks like everything is quick connect spades on the furnace. I should be able to find a manual/wiring diagram which would allow me to add a switch to turn the fan on independant to the burner. If I put the oil heater in front, it will circulate heat nicely I believe.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on the point of view), I found a water leak when looking inside the cabinets. Should be easy to fix (I hope). Appears to be either at the split line seam or the top of the propane box. I think resealing locally should fix it.