Wood vs Aluminum/Paper vs. Plastic

[Ranger_Tim]

There are certain things in life that guarantee a lively discussion and the "no wood, no rot" construction mantra is no exception - at least it is in the boating industry. Seems like there is a similarity here with RV's. I am migrating from the boat culture to the RV culture and see myself drawn to the truck camper strongly. Having grown up on the Chesapeake Bay I knew my way around boats and recently sold off my second boat, a solid wood and fiberglass sportfisher from a higher end manufacturer. I bought this craft with an eye to seaworthiness, solid build and craftsmanship, and eventual resale value (if there is such a thing in boats). I was not disappointed.

Now that I have been transplanted to the wilds of Idaho the siren song of the truck camper is calling me to begin the search for my own portable camping unit. The days of sleeping on the ground are over and I want the security and comfort of a four season camper that is easy to park and will provide my wife and I a place to rest at night.

I have now run into the same wood vs. aluminum debate, however the parameters and circumstances that affect the camper decision are somewhat different. Allow me to begin a conversation by stating that there are certain things that concern me as a prospective new TC owner:

1) Durability of construction, i.e. how the camper superstructure will fare in the long run. Will aluminum welds outlast the life of a wooden framed model? Will rot prove the eventual downfall of most wood TC's? Or is the wooden model the best compromise for most of us, including its relative ease of repair and resistance to mechanical stress?

2) Both wood and aluminum seem to be offered in relatively lightweight models, so is there really a difference between them in terms of weight? Will a wooden camper soak up enough moisture over time to tip the scales?

3) Not to imply that these brands are superior to any others, but (for example) the new offerings from Camp Lite and Travel Lite seem to compare head to head weight-wise, yet are worlds apart in terms of design and construction philosophy. Is this just the age-old more taste, less filling debate? Surely there is some type of rationale for wood to still be a material of choice?

4) Some will probably tell me to forget about this and concentrate on features and suitability rather than design differences under the skin, but I can't shake the feeling that this is somehow going to mean a great deal to me after the ink is dry on the sales contract.

What are the other elements of this comparison that I am not seeing? I would rather go beyond the hype of the advertising slogans and base my decisions on real-world experiences. No agenda here, just a desire to spend the hard won cash from the sweat of my brow on a product that won't make me wince when I see it sitting on my truck. My first boat was a foam-filled fiberglass yard monument that shuddered with each wave and felt totally incapable on the water. The second one still makes me smile each time I remember how it parted the seas with confidence and gave me an assurance of a solidly built craft that would get me home when the going got tough. Is this satisfaction and pride of ownership too much to expect from a TC borne of an industry that is pumping out product on a slim margin and has to cut many corners in order to out sell the competition? Am I actually still making sense?

It's late and I'm kinda confused after looking at TC web pages for the last eon. Thanks for listening to the rambling!

Idling in Idaho

[JIMNLIN]

A water leak in a RV TC/TT/5th wheel trailer is bad regardless of sidewall framing type. Aluminum framed vacuum bonded walls have their delam issues and of course wood in the walls/floors can rot. I've owned three wood framed TCs/a wood framed TT and three 5th wheel trailers. The last two 5th wheels were aluminum framed units. Out next RV will be a good ol' quiet/warm woody.

I had my own RV/mobilehome repair business some years ago so non of my RVs have ever leaked.

This interesting read from a RV maker on the subject was posted on NUWA (HH II) website;


Why doesn't NuWa use an all aluminum structure like popular Indiana manufacturers?

NuWa made the decision to begin the use of aluminum structure based on marketing and the fact that many people were concluding that an "aluminum caged" product was superior in construction technology, weight and strength. Our 40+ years of experience as a leader in 5th wheel design suggests that may be "flawed" information. We have proven that wood construction need be no heavier or less strong than aluminum construction, that is built properly. We now build both materials, and are comfortable doing either, however our opinion is still that wood construction provides a superior product, and today we use both in the construction of our trailers. The strength of the NuWa trailer is actually created by the superior and light weight Blue Dow foam lamination concept.

NuWa uses an aluminum substructure in the sidewalls and ends of the coach only. No aluminum in the floors or attics, where metal promotes conduction of cold and moisture resulting in condensation.

90% of the walls are Blue Dow Structural Foam, rather than wood or aluminum. This creates a superior insulation and the only product with a guaranteed sidewall R Factor. (Water absorption in standard white foam reduces R Factor over time, and the use of Blue Dow Structural Foam eliminates this problem.)

NuWa's aluminum substructure sidewall is actually a "hybrid" wall, as we core fill the aluminum with wood in those areas where additional strength is required, because aluminum will not hold a screw. Not so with the lower priced brands. With NuWa's combined use of wood and aluminum substructure, you get a superior product because of NuWa's unique Blue Dow foam vacu-bond process, which makes the sidewalls virtually resistant to water penetration.

[Ranger_Tim]

Thank you all for your replies. Interesting reading. Let me say that I do not expect any RV to have an equivalent construction to a boat. Our needs in a truck camper are minimal and I understand how much weight our truck can haul. I will be aggressively looking for a camper that has the following characteristics:

Lightweight, i.e. 2300 lbs or less. I am figuring on a 2800 pound weight limit- with gear.
Some type of toilet and a shower (inside or outside)
No frivolous options that will weigh down the rig.
No slide.
Easy to maintain.
Four season - Idaho gets down below zero and it ain't fun being cold. I don't mind giving up running water to be able to travel in winter, but I want to sleep in at least 45 degree temps.
No canvas sides or pop up. Hard sided - it's griz and lion country here and I want enough time to reload.

The issue really is between wood or Al. There are several campers that I have found of each type that will work for us, so we just have to do more looking and asking.

Thank you for the warm welcome and insightful posts.

[Super_Dave]

Maybe it is because my frame is aluminum but I keep chuckling when the wood guys say how easy it is to fix their rot because it is wood. I might be missing something but I think the argument is no rot at all is easier to not fix in the first place is it not?

[sabconsulting]

JFET - I think what you have there is a form of abstract expressionism - I love the earthy colors and exciting texture :B

Ranger Tim - If you're looking for a used camper and if it is wooden then be very careful about inspecting for ANY signs of water inside, e.g. staining, wrinkled ceiling panels, etc. Check the caulking for signs of poor maintenance or where it looks like it has been applied AFTER a problem has occurred (possibly just sealing in water), especially on the roof. With an aluminum camper maybe you want to try to get access to somewhere where you can see examples of the welds, e.g. where the water tanks are supported, and check you are happy with the quality of that welding; you'll have to assume it is consistent across the whole camper.

My roof rebuild due to rot

Steve.

[Jfet]

If you see welds like this on the RV lot, run away! 😉

[Camp__Forrest__]

My wood frame camper is almost 30 years old. It has had significant rot in several places that I have had to replace. I can say that EVERY case of rot in my camper was due to a lack of maintenance. The good news is that damaged wood is something that a guy can repair in his driveway with basic tools!

[c_traveler2]

You definitely have a lot to consider, it took my wife and I just over a year to decide on a TC for ourselves.
What are you going to use that TC for?
Do you have enough truck for it? Many first timers have made that mistake including myself.
Our Lance 815 was the best suited for us in 2002 and has served us very well over the years and across a many rought roads. Since our is a wooden frame unit any repairs have been fairly easy to do myself.
Since you have a Ford,as I do, take in consideration Ford's in famous frame flex that will add more stress to a TC in back country wanderings.

Cab height is to be checked more so on a Ford, on my 2004 F250 I had to add a 1-1/2" spacer to rase my TC to keep cabover space at a reasonable openning, on my 2007 F250(4x4) I ended up building a 4" platform to keep the cab and cabover from slapping.

Any further question for me, just PM me. Good Luck in your hunt for that suitable TC.

[jimh406]

gkirtley wrote:
I have heard poor welds with no apparent fusion described as "wormy" but these would be more accurately described as "worm crap" or worse.

You can weld poorly with any process to make it weak, but you can also split wood. If you look at some of the frames of campers, you'll see that as well. Finally, you can poorly build fiberglass campers as well and do a poor job at sealing the holes or warp the shell or lay it too thin.

Finally, campers are built one at time so quality varies. You might want to give all RVs a wide berth.

[Super_Dave]

Building structures typically won't hold themselves up in an event and depend on the shear and diaphram support of the skin / roof to hold it together. Campers are just buildings in a continuous earthquake zone.

[sabconsulting]

Jfet wrote:
8000 threads in here about wood rot with some ghastly pictures. I am not sure I could find 10 threads showing failed aluminum weld joints...

Not disagreeing with you, but I do imagine there have been many more years of wood campers than aluminum ones, so more old campers that are wood and have rotted than old aluminum framed campers that have failed. Time will tell whether that situation changes, depending upon the quality of the aluminum frames.

If I remember correctly, the one set of pictures I did see were not shocking because they showed a fatigue failure of aluminum welds, but due to the appalling quality of the welds pictured. Hopefully these were just a one off, but they appeared to be tack welds that were never finished off; they had a lot of contamination, but the main problem appeared to be a complete lack of penetration - the weld was just blobbed onto the two pieces of metal and looked like it could be cleanly dislodged by a quick blow from a screwdriver. It clearly indicated whoever did the welding on that camper had no idea what constituted an acceptable weld. In fact it looked like someone had accidentally used carbon-argon mix as the shielding gas. Hopefully this was an early one / one off. If not then there will be a lot of problems stored up.

Steve.

[gkirtley]

I have considered responding to posts like this in the past but have been hesitant to rain on anybodies parade. Background: purchased first TIG welder in 1970s for gunsmithing and general fabrication. I have owned 3 profession grade units including currently a Miller Dynasty 200 inverter-type. Most buy TIG units for aluminum but I have welded mostly steel but also dabbled in AL. Point is I know what a good Al weld should look like.

Last summer my wife and I visited a NorthernLite dealer in Bozeman, MT and we noticed one of the ALL Aluminum campers that had been mentioned on this forum. We decided to take a look and the salesman opened the closet in the right rear and proudly pointed out the exposed construction--all Al, frame and skin. First thing I noticed was besides no inside paneling in the closet there was also no insulation--mind you this was in MT where I lived for 10 years and it can be very chilly even during the summer camping season. I next saw the welds on the 1" sq tube and couldn't quite believe my eyes. I have heard poor welds with no apparent fusion described as "wormy" but these would be more accurately described as "worm crap" or worse.

It was obviously done with a MIG spool gun (which is an inferior way to weld Al compared to TIG) because of black smoke left all over and the welder had no slightest idea how to set the machine parameters or weld for that matter. I decided right then if I ever saw this brand on the highway I would give it a wide berth since it couldn't be much stronger than if it was stuck together with superglue. Truthfully I think the skin contributed almost all of the strength.

Personally if I was interested in an AL frame camper I would prefer one that is riveted or bonded in some other way than welded--especially at the corners. Even good quality Al welds can work harden. I realize this was but one camper but still I shake my head thinking of the the way that structure was built. I have never understood why almost no companies use thin-wall steel tubing like Jfet is using on his project on this forum. It isn't much heavier than AL.

[Jfet]

8000 threads in here about wood rot with some ghastly pictures. I am not sure I could find 10 threads showing failed aluminum weld joints.

(we used steel in our build so I am really not worried at all about the weld joints....unless we hit a concrete barrier at more than 30mph).

I think the condensation problem (the transfer of heat through the aluminum frame from inner wall to outer wall) could be solved by putting insulation over the frame between the inside wall and the frame members. This is what we did. I am not sure what livin lite does.

[jimh406]

Boats and TCs aren't the same. There are a lot of reasons to use aluminum for a boat that don't apply to TCs very well. That being said, the primary reason to use aluminum in TCs is consistency of the material and the inability to be have significant water damage. However, it doesn't insulate like wood does.

[Super_Dave]

Tim, also being a boat guy, I fully understand the advantages of wood & fiberglass in boat design. (Weight) In rough seas, a heavy boat is your friend. In the camper world (on land) think of the boat arguments but being inverse on land versus water.