Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

[ricatic]

There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards

[coolbreeze01]

Sounds like Ford needs to brand their own diesel fuel......something good enough for their engine.
I'm still curious just how clean and pure the initial factory delivery gallons are.

[NewsW]

FishOnOne wrote:

BTW remember that bad quality diesel can include diesel without the lubricity additive

And since there's alot of KookAid drinking going on here, put Dodge's documented procedure next to the KoolAid as well.

How many tanks of diesel without the lubricity additive that is supposed to be added at the terminal or at the refinery (not by consumer) should the CP 4 pump be able to tolerate?

I think the answer is it better be more than 1.

Even if the answer is 1 or less, there should be a way to make it a soft failure where the engine is depowered / stopped to prevent a catastrophic failure or serious damage.

[FishOnOne]

rick83864 wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:

Ford has a documented procedure for the techs to inspect different components of the fuel system including inspecting the filters for DEF comtamination. It's really a basic procedure that should catch any gross contaminants and/or owner neglect for maintenance.

Something like this?? C&P sorry I lost the link.


This is very important & somewhat controversial, but in being a believer that an informed customer is a better customer, I'm posting a portion of a publication that was recently made available to the Ford Technicians regarding fuel quality and the implications that poor diesel fuel quality/contamination has on the diesel high pressure fuel system. This is not altogether new news, however the implications are significant.

Engineering investigation into the impact of poor diesel fuel quality has determined that there are a number of fuel system related failures tied directly to poor fuel. The OEM Automotive industry appears to be taking a position that the Petroleum Industry and Fuel Distributors/Suppliers/Sellers must take control of the quality of the product (in this case diesel fuel) they are providing.

In short, please talk with your diesel fuel providers/stations/etc. where possible to discuss diesel fuel quality. The result of poor fuel is a very expensive repair (pump, injectors, lines and rails), the techs when there is an issue, will be visually inspecting components and comparing them with known failed components where root cause was fuel quality causing internal corrosion of the fuel system.


Fuel system contamination on 6.7L diesel engines can damage the fuel system components including the High Pressure (HP) fuel injection pump and fuel injectors. Engine operation on fuels and additives that do not meet the lubrication, cooling and anti-corrosion properties required by the HP fuel system components may cause symptoms including, but not limited to, the following:
· Crank No Start
· Long Crank/Hard Start
· Runs Rough
· Low Power
· Engine Knocking
· Exhaust Smoke
· Fuel Rail Pressure (FRP) slow to build
Follow the appropriate service procedure depending on whether the engine has been started with contaminated fuel, or not.


NOTE:

Failure to follow these procedures may result in fuel system and/or engine damage and may require vehicle warranty cancellation submission. Repairs required due to the use of improper fluids and fuel are not covered by the New Vehicle Limited Warranty.


NOTE: The most common sources of contaminated fuel are:
· Auxiliary vehicle mounted tanks
· Local storage tanks
· Other infrequently used fuel sources
· Refueling errors
The best action that can be taken to avoid concerns with the fuel system is to ensure vehicles are only fueled from sources with known quality diesel fuels verified to be free from water and other contaminants

It's called "prove it pal" or "gotch guy". JFYI Chebie is honoring there warranty.

Like I asked Ricatic... Where's GM's documented policy?

BTW remember that bad quality diesel can include diesel without the lubricity additive

And since there's alot of KookAid drinking going on here, put Dodge's documented procedure next to the KoolAid as well.

[45Ricochet]

FishOnOne wrote:

Ford has a documented procedure for the techs to inspect different components of the fuel system including inspecting the filters for DEF comtamination. It's really a basic procedure that should catch any gross contaminants and/or owner neglect for maintenance.

Something like this?? C&P sorry I lost the link.


This is very important & somewhat controversial, but in being a believer that an informed customer is a better customer, I'm posting a portion of a publication that was recently made available to the Ford Technicians regarding fuel quality and the implications that poor diesel fuel quality/contamination has on the diesel high pressure fuel system. This is not altogether new news, however the implications are significant.

Engineering investigation into the impact of poor diesel fuel quality has determined that there are a number of fuel system related failures tied directly to poor fuel. The OEM Automotive industry appears to be taking a position that the Petroleum Industry and Fuel Distributors/Suppliers/Sellers must take control of the quality of the product (in this case diesel fuel) they are providing.

In short, please talk with your diesel fuel providers/stations/etc. where possible to discuss diesel fuel quality. The result of poor fuel is a very expensive repair (pump, injectors, lines and rails), the techs when there is an issue, will be visually inspecting components and comparing them with known failed components where root cause was fuel quality causing internal corrosion of the fuel system.


Fuel system contamination on 6.7L diesel engines can damage the fuel system components including the High Pressure (HP) fuel injection pump and fuel injectors. Engine operation on fuels and additives that do not meet the lubrication, cooling and anti-corrosion properties required by the HP fuel system components may cause symptoms including, but not limited to, the following:
· Crank No Start
· Long Crank/Hard Start
· Runs Rough
· Low Power
· Engine Knocking
· Exhaust Smoke
· Fuel Rail Pressure (FRP) slow to build
Follow the appropriate service procedure depending on whether the engine has been started with contaminated fuel, or not.


NOTE:

Failure to follow these procedures may result in fuel system and/or engine damage and may require vehicle warranty cancellation submission. Repairs required due to the use of improper fluids and fuel are not covered by the New Vehicle Limited Warranty.


NOTE: The most common sources of contaminated fuel are:
· Auxiliary vehicle mounted tanks
· Local storage tanks
· Other infrequently used fuel sources
· Refueling errors
The best action that can be taken to avoid concerns with the fuel system is to ensure vehicles are only fueled from sources with known quality diesel fuels verified to be free from water and other contaminants

It's called "prove it pal" or "gotch guy". JFYI Chebie is honoring there warranty.

[FishOnOne]

ricatic wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:
Ford Doctor is a Ford diesel tech on TDS and feel he's calling a spade a spade. His experience like other Ford diesel techs have seen very few failures and yes some have been covererd by warranty when there is no evidence of contaminated diesel.

Gloom and Doom for the 6.7... I think not!

Hi Troy

Keep in mind there is not too much of that KoolAid at this site.

I read Ford Doctors post.In my post that followed, I agreed with him that the vandalized Ford 6.7 was not a warranty claim. No one would think that it would be. He never said whether there was any discussion with the owner of that truck about the non-warranty status.

The gloom and doom you speak of is not as much related to the failures of the HPFP but the failure of Ford Motor Company to adjudicate each case on it's own merits. The dealership can not just fix a failed HPFP under warranty. All HPFP failures that make it past the tech must be looked at by a Ford FSE. The few Ford HPFP's that were replaced under warranty were all done prior to the September edict from Ford... An edict that was issued after I started the discussion here and at other sites.

Ford has a policy of no warranty for HPFP failures. It is up to the owner to prove the HPFP repair should be warrantied. The dealerships are so afraid of a warranty kickback from Ford that they are not eager to help the customer. This policy position was told to me by a highly respected Ford tech that you and I both know personally. It is also what Shepherd's, the second dealer that actually fixed my truck told me. Their service manager had a discussion with the regional marketing manager regarding my truck. This guy told him to fix my truck under warranty. We discussed this possibility. The service manager told me he was scared to do the repair for fear of warranty kickback.

GM has a policy that puts the customer first. There have been zero reports of GM failing to warranty any failed CP4 HPFP. This despite the fact that there failure rate on the pump is statistically the same as Ford's. Maybe they actually understand the lubricity issue:E:E:E

If Bosch is warranting the GM pumps...why would they not do the same for Ford. The answer is simple...they would. The problem is Ford is scared stiff of yet another diesel black eye like the last two Navistar engines. Blaming owners for HPFP failures may be keeping Ford's warranty numbers down but it is causing a growing public relations nightmare.

Now that the NHTSA answers are out there, the truth is surfacing. The Bosch CP4 series pumps have shown their preference for the exact quality fuel that Bosch demands for them. The 460 scar fuel in Canada has produced a significantly lower failure rate than the poor 520 scar fuel that is available in the US. This is irrefutable...unless both GM and Ford lied in their answers to the NHTSA...or someone drank too much KoolAid...

Regards

Hello Rick,
I don't own any of that special KoolAid you speak of unless you consider facts based on data (including our techs), documentation of a reputable source, and ones experience a source of KoolAid drinking then I'm your huckaberry.

I'm surprised that the DLC coating hasn't been brought up as another problem, but maybe that discussion should fall into the KoolAid drinking catagory. 🙂

BTW can you supply the policy/procedure that GM inspects the fuel system for determining if they cover a HPFP repair under warrenty? We seen Fords' and it appears to be a basic commen sense procedure but what about GM's that you rave about!

[FishOnOne]

rick83864 wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:
Ford Doctor is a Ford diesel tech on TDS and feel he's calling a spade a spade. His experience like other Ford diesel techs have seen very few failures and yes some have been covererd by warranty when there is no evidence of contaminated diesel.

Gloom and Doom for the 6.7... I think not!

TDS is exactly what? I know of a few Ford forums and TDS doesn't ring a bell. Inquiring minds would like to know you source of information :W

TDS = The Diesel Stop

[FishOnOne]

NewsW wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:
Ford Doctor is a Ford diesel tech on TDS and feel he's calling a spade a spade. His experience like other Ford diesel techs have seen very few failures and yes some have been covererd by warranty when there is no evidence of contaminated diesel.

Gloom and Doom for the 6.7... I think not!

What is the definition of "evidence"?


As I read the Ford TSB posted on that site, it does not allow for the possibility of failure that is unexplained.

Ford has a documented procedure for the techs to inspect different components of the fuel system including inspecting the filters for DEF comtamination. It's really a basic procedure that should catch any gross contaminants and/or owner neglect for maintenance.

[FishOnOne]

Flashman wrote:


And as the miles on the 6.7 start to increase?? It seems to be a ticking bomb.

Actually the Ford techs have seen very few repair activity with the 6.7's including the fuel system.

Compare the Ford 6.7 launch to the Dodge 6.7 Cummins launch... The Cummins would have appeared to be a ticking time bomb, but we know how that ended up!

[NewsW]

Whether the issue is in other Bosch CP 4 pump applications is a big question.

Cummins is using Scania technology in the higher end lines, only using Bosch in the low end 6.7

Cummins Fuel Systems wrote:
High Pressure Injection (HPI) Systems

The Heavy Duty HPI (HD HPI) system is an electronically controlled unit injection system currently used on the Cummins Inc. ISX 15 liter and Scania 12 liter products. This open nozzle system provides higher pressure injection than previously released Cummins systems.

Similar to the Heavy Duty model, the High Horse Power HPI (HHP HPI) system is an electronically controlled unit injection system.In order to meet a variety of customer needs, the HHP HPI system can be utilized in multiple engine cylinder configurations. This system is used on Cummins Inc. high horse power engines ranging from 6 cylinder/19 liter to 18 cylinder/78 liter.


Ø Cummins Common Rail (CCR) Pump

The common rail injection system is used in engine applications previously supported by pump-line-nozzle (PLN) fuel systems in midrange and smaller diesel engines.The Cummins Common Rail fuel pump offers higher injection pressure and requires less power to operate, resulting in improved fuel economy and emissions compared to competitors'fuel systems. The CCR pump is used on Cummins Inc. ISL 9 liter and ISC 8 liter engines.

Ø Extreme Pressure Injection (XPI) System

The XPI system is the most recently released Cummins Inc. fuel system product. XPI is a jointly developed and manufactured system with a Joint Venture between Cummins Inc. and Scania. This common rail system provides the highest injection pressure of any other common rail system. Primarily targeted for Cummins midrange and Scania heavy duty applications, the XPI system is the result of Cummins market leading technology.

[john_bet]

If fuel quality is such a problem are there fuel system problems with the bigger engines used in motor homes,class5 thru 8 trucks. Some Cummins enginers just got an award for thier work in fuel systems related to XPI injectors used in C,L,ISX engines with a 36,000 psi injection pressure. I have no idea what they are using for a pump. Just wondering.

[NewsW]

For an animation of the Bosch CP 4.2 pump, see here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4lMJ4lqRuo

[ricatic]

Ric Flair wrote:

ricatic wrote:
Can you get a Dodge HD 3500 Dually with a gas engine?

Regards

GM offers their HD Dually with the Vortec V8 gas burner.

The question was asked in response to someone suggesting a gas engine. I will be going diesel again when the time gets here. GM with a Ford size cab or a Dodge with DEF emission controls...first one to make one of those wishes come true will likely get my business.

Regards

[Ric_Flair]

ricatic wrote:
Can you get a Dodge HD 3500 Dually with a gas engine?

Regards

GM offers their HD Dually with the Vortec V8 gas burner.

[NewsW]

I will be the blue team here!

Perrysburg Dodgeboy wrote:

NewsW wrote:


It is not just lower pressures, but a different, more complex, and expensive to build pump (CP3).
??? different yes, more complex??? I don't think so. Please explain your comment.

Bosch's public literature confirms that the CP4 pump is less expensive to build than the predecessor CP3, and the CP4 delivers higher pressures.

The CP4 was touted as cheaper to build, and yet did higher pressures.

Again how can this be? The CP4 runs at higher pressures correct? Also does it not have some coating on the internals? This would up the manufacturing cost, or are they building them in Korea with their stiller quality standards.

I, for one, am not authoritatively able to speak to Bosch's manufacturing costs, only relay what they said in public.

Pump is built in Germany.



Retrofitting CP3 is not an option for the manufacturer or individual users.

For the Manufactures yes I agree, for an individual I disagree. We do not have to do the testing, nor do we have to get the emissions certifications you noted below. As for the injectors as long as the injector body is the same a simple swap out is all that is needed

At the minimum level, are the injectors compatible?

Will it require reprogramming?

New wire harnesses?

What about piping from pump to injector?

Will they have to be custom built?

None of these are simple problems at 2,000bars

That is assuming you don't have an emissions problem.

A lower pressure pump is likely to produce much higher particulates and NOx and unburnt hydrocarbons --- and cause unanticipated issues downstream.

Then there is the whole issue of injection shots, timing, spray patterns.

Plain simple drivability, economy, etc.




If the problem is intolerance of common lubricant additives, the problem remains.

And again way would Bosch build a pump that is not compatible to the fuel standards of the Country it is going to be used in? The Car Companies tell a vendor to build me a pump that is compatible to these specs. It is the Vendors job to get it done or walk away from the project.


I stress we have no authoritative data on what the fuel problem is as of yet.

Only good speculation and guesses.

Sounds more like Ford does not want to fight with Bosch and Bosch is most likely denying Fords returns for credit on their pumps and they (Ford) just does not want to fight with them.

I bet before long you are going to see the manufactures going after Bosch. This is their problem (Bosch) but Ford denying their customers valid warranty claims is wrong and shows they have not changed their way of doing business. Ford Quality is Job NONE!!!

Don

We do not know the Bosch contract with Ford, which is likely quite different from the GM contract.

GM ceded to Bosch control over the ECM for the CP 4 pump, making it much harder for anyone to tamper with the fuel injection system.

Ford, on the other hand, retained control, which means that Bosch probably is much more circumscribed in its warranty of the pump.

For marketing reasons, Ford chose not to lock up the ECM tighter, even though they do RECORD what their customers are doing.

Remember --- Bosch knows all about the Navistar fiasco, so they know what land mines to not step on with the willingness of Ford to turn a blind eye to customer tampering with the gear.

Stay tuned... you will know more when I know.



Bosch literature on CP 4:

Bosch Mlilestones in Common Rail wrote:
high-pressure pump. Designed as a
radial-piston pump, the CP4 is leaner,
simpler and more cost-ef? cient than
the CP3, allowing pressures of 1,600
to more than 2,000 bar depending on
the individual version (CP4.1 with one
piston or CP 4.2 with two pistons).
2007 marked the series production
of the ? rst third-generation Common
Rail system with a maximum injection
pressure of 2,000 bar.

[Perrysburg_Dodg]

NewsW wrote:


Just a note from the free lunch department...

It is not just lower pressures, but a different, more complex, and expensive to build pump (CP3).
??? different yes, more complex??? I don't think so. Please explain your comment.

The CP4 was touted as cheaper to build, and yet did higher pressures.

Again how can this be? The CP4 runs at higher pressures correct? Also does it not have some coating on the internals? This would up the manufacturing cost, or are they building them in Korea with their stiller quality standards.

Retrofitting CP3 is not an option for the manufacturer or individual users.

For the Manufactures yes I agree, for an individual I disagree. We do not have to do the testing, nor do we have to get the emissions certifications you noted below. As for the injectors as long as the injector body is the same a simple swap out is all that is needed

For one, emissions certification will have to be done from scratch, and it is not clear that the older pump can be used with the newer injectors.

Dropping the pressure on the CP4 is a stopgap --- and if the problem is reactivity --- then it might help.

If the problem is intolerance of common lubricant additives, the problem remains.

And again way would Bosch build a pump that is not compatible to the fuel standards of the Country it is going to be used in? The Car Companies tell a vendor to build me a pump that is compatible to these specs. It is the Vendors job to get it done or walk away from the project.

VW is basically trying to contain the problem in what is a very small part of their business that is costing them an arm and a leg.

Sounds more like Ford does not want to fight with Bosch and Bosch is most likely denying Fords returns for credit on their pumps and they (Ford) just does not want to fight with them.

I bet before long you are going to see the manufactures going after Bosch. This is their problem (Bosch) but Ford denying their customers valid warranty claims is wrong and shows they have not changed their way of doing business. Ford Quality is Job NONE!!!

Don