Forest Service caught Red Handed

[Y-Guy]

This popped up on one of my Jeep groups, found it interesting and perhaps something that might be going on elsewhere.

Forest Service caught Red Handed in Pitkin, Colorado

The old historic mining town of Pitkin, Colorado is home to some amazing 4×4 roads such as the Tin Cup/ St. Elmo/Pitkin Loop, and Hancock Pass/Alpine Tunnel 4×4 road. It's also home to hardy group of citizens who won't let the Forest Service trample all over their rights.

Over the past few years the United States Forest Service has been attempting to close many roads around Pitkin, as well as all over Colorado.

The roads were not merely being closed, they were being obliterated. A local Vietnam vet said, “It looks like carpet bombing to me!” The Forest Service was using a Deere 650 dozer to do the damage. The Forest Service had overstepped their bounds, the people of Pitkin knew it and they decided enough was enough. The formed a work party and set off on their own to restore the Powderhouse Gulch Road.

However, word leaked out to District Ranger John Murphy, who met the work party accompanied by USFS law enforcement personnel. Murphy tried to discourage the men from reopening the road, arguing that, “this is not the right way to go about it,” that “there are proper channels to go through,” and “hoops that you need to jump through,” and that “it is not possible to reopen the road.” But not even the threat of arrest would stop the men from reopening the road.

The men knew the Forest Service had overstepped their bounds, this was a county road. The District Ranger, John Murphy, was powerless to arrest the men and his threats were merely an attempt to prevent being caught with his hand in the cookie jar. When Murphy came to realize that he could not talk the men out of reopening the road, he did what he had just said was not possible. He guaranteed that he would reopen the road, and have it done in a week.

It was the best possible outcome. Not only were we the people of Pitkin not arrested, the road crews destroying the roads around Pitkin were pulled, and the Powderhouse Gulch Road was reconstructed. Had Murphy ordered the men arrested rather than ordering the road restored, federal prosecutors would not have been able to obtain a conviction, and instead the Forest Service’s usurpation and destruction would have been spotlighted.

It took more than 40 hours to restore the road the dozer had previously ruined, but true to his word, John Murphy reopened the road.

Understanding the laws:
Although the Powderhouse Gulch road is a right-or-way through the National Forest, the road is not a National Forest System road. It is a county road, belonging to the People of Colorado.

The USFS is an unelected federal agency with limited jurisdiction. Although the USFS may have power to destroy its own “National Forest System roads,” it has no power to close, let alone destroy, “a road which has been authorized by a legally documented right-of-way held by a State, county, or other local public road authority,” that is, a road protected under the principles of RS2477, an old mining statute securing established right-of-ways.

Had the group of men from Pitkin tried to reopen a closed USFS road, there would have likely been legal action taken against them. The key is to know the laws and be smart about protecting your rights.

Pitkin Colorado Vs The United States Forest Service

[coolbreeze01]

The FS person responsible for destroying the road to begin with, should pay damages and be fired.

There are too many vandals already. We certainly don't need any on the public payroll.

[N-Trouble]

ramgunner wrote:

Dog Folks wrote:
Flame if you want, but as a former LEO, I find waiting to help or respond to a request for help, while carrying your "Five-seven," reprehensible!!!

As I noted, I would help her trainer in a heartbeat - because I know what kind of a guy he is. He isn't the type with a badge-i-tude, understands and practices the principle of de-escalation, and is the type of LEO you can trust. If he got into it with someone, I would not doubt that he was justified.

On the other hand, if she got into it with someone, her actions and attitude left me with than reasonable doubt about any justification. It could as easily be that she escalated a situation needlessly as it could be that she was totally right in her actions - more to the former most likely. With discretion being the better part of valor, I'd stay out of it.

Reprehensible? Actions have consequences. As a LEO, the consequences of either good or bad actions and attitude matter. Demonstrate honor and be worthy of the trust of the public you serve, and generally it is reciprocated. Fail to do so, and the reciprocation is commensurate.

The actions of the folks in the initial article in this thread are clear examples of lack of honor and contempt for the people. That's what needs to change.

Nice response! I agree, what comes around goes around... And I am not anti-law enforcement as I have relatives in law enforcement.

[LowRyter]

Bad Brad wrote:

LowRyter wrote:

Bad Brad wrote:
I was also in Pitkin last year...what an incredibly beautiful place. It really disturbs me to hear the USFS and BLM doing stuff that is beyond their authority. I absolutely resent this as these are supposed to be people working for the Government...for the people. In this case, these folks working for the USFS, wrongfully destroyed a road with intent to close it down. I think these folks should be immediately fired, then taken to court and sued for damages to the road and property. (it shouldn't be our tax dollars paying to tear it up and fix it) As a private individuals, you can bet that we would be held accountable. What a bunch of BS!!!

well then it must've all worked out for the better since you were there last year and OP's citation goes back before 2012.

Obviously. Thanks to the folks in Pitkin for not cowering down to the USFS. Doesn't change the fact that our tax money was wasted in the illegal effort.

so no worries

[ramgunner]

Dog Folks wrote:
Flame if you want, but as a former LEO, I find waiting to help or respond to a request for help, while carrying your "Five-seven," reprehensible!!!

As I noted, I would help her trainer in a heartbeat - because I know what kind of a guy he is. He isn't the type with a badge-i-tude, understands and practices the principle of de-escalation, and is the type of LEO you can trust. If he got into it with someone, I would not doubt that he was justified.

On the other hand, if she got into it with someone, her actions and attitude left me with than reasonable doubt about any justification. It could as easily be that she escalated a situation needlessly as it could be that she was totally right in her actions - more to the former most likely. With discretion being the better part of valor, I'd stay out of it.

Reprehensible? Actions have consequences. As a LEO, the consequences of either good or bad actions and attitude matter. Demonstrate honor and be worthy of the trust of the public you serve, and generally it is reciprocated. Fail to do so, and the reciprocation is commensurate.

The actions of the folks in the initial article in this thread are clear examples of lack of honor and contempt for the people. That's what needs to change.

[Bad_Brad]

LowRyter wrote:

Bad Brad wrote:
I was also in Pitkin last year...what an incredibly beautiful place. It really disturbs me to hear the USFS and BLM doing stuff that is beyond their authority. I absolutely resent this as these are supposed to be people working for the Government...for the people. In this case, these folks working for the USFS, wrongfully destroyed a road with intent to close it down. I think these folks should be immediately fired, then taken to court and sued for damages to the road and property. (it shouldn't be our tax dollars paying to tear it up and fix it) As a private individuals, you can bet that we would be held accountable. What a bunch of BS!!!

well then it must've all worked out for the better since you were there last year and OP's citation goes back before 2012.

Obviously. Thanks to the folks in Pitkin for not cowering down to the USFS. Doesn't change the fact that our tax money was wasted in the illegal effort.

[LowRyter]

Bad Brad wrote:
I was also in Pitkin last year...what an incredibly beautiful place. It really disturbs me to hear the USFS and BLM doing stuff that is beyond their authority. I absolutely resent this as these are supposed to be people working for the Government...for the people. In this case, these folks working for the USFS, wrongfully destroyed a road with intent to close it down. I think these folks should be immediately fired, then taken to court and sued for damages to the road and property. (it shouldn't be our tax dollars paying to tear it up and fix it) As a private individuals, you can bet that we would be held accountable. What a bunch of BS!!!

well then it must've all worked out for the better since you were there last year and OP's citation goes back before 2012.

[Bad_Brad]

Bad Brad wrote:
I was also in Pitkin last year...what an incredibly beautiful place. It really disturbs me to hear the USFS and BLM doing stuff that is beyond their authority. I absolutely resent this as these people are supposed to be working for the Government...for the people. In this case, employees of the USFS, wrongfully destroyed a road with intent to close it down. I think these folks should be immediately fired, then taken to court and sued for damages to the road and property. (it shouldn't be our tax dollars paying to tear it up and fix it) As a private individuals, you can bet that we would be held accountable. What a bunch of BS!!!

[Bad_Brad]

I was also in Pitkin last year...what an incredibly beautiful place. It really disturbs me to hear the USFS and BLM doing stuff that is beyond their authority. I absolutely resent this as these are supposed to be people working for the Government...for the people. In this case, these folks working for the USFS, wrongfully destroyed a road with intent to close it down. I think these folks should be immediately fired, then taken to court and sued for damages to the road and property. (it shouldn't be our tax dollars paying to tear it up and fix it) As a private individuals, you can bet that we would be held accountable. What a bunch of BS!!!

[2lazy4U]

I have to say that I sometimes work with the BLM near Moab, Utah, and a harder working bunch I've never seen. You wouldn't believe the stuff they have to put up with. I'm not for closing everything, but I also resent the blanket attitude that they're all out to shut everything down. And I also resent calling a woman a butch. It's uncalled for.

And I'm a W. Colorado native, so I've been around the block with both sides of the equation. Nothing's ever black and white.

[Dog_Folks]

ramgunner wrote:
.......

I asked her if she knew where her nearest backup was. She wasn't sure. I told her that it was the Utah County deputy about 13 miles down the road. He was stationary and just being seen.

I then explained to her that many of us were CFP holders (I think the Five-seveN in the thigh holster at my side was a clue), and since the majority of folks out there are good guys, if her trainer were ever to get in trouble I know that at least I'd be willing to help if I heard him calling for assistance on the radio.

But with her attitude, I let her know that she would be on her own until that deputy arrived.

Flame if you want, but as a former LEO, I find waiting to help or respond to a request for help, while carrying your "Five-seven," reprehensible!!!

[nayther]

a group just caught USFS closing trails in the area we call The Paiutes and when asked the Ranger in charge claimed ignorance, didn't know who was posting closed signs on open trails, sounded like BS/CYA to me. Signs came down.

Stay vigilant, stay informed.

[ramgunner]

She wasn't really the "butch" type, she was one of those that just don't like folks on motorized vehicles and was doing what she could to make being there unpleasant for us.

I won't say that there is any official, organized effort for folks that feel like that to go into ranger or BLM LE programs, but after that I did a little checking and the idea is at least spread by word-of-mouth among those folks.

It's just something to be aware of.

[N-Trouble]

ramgunner wrote:
A few years back we had an interesting encounter with a BLM officer trainee and her trainer. We were out in a group of Jeeps and were stopped getting ready to head up a trail. They pulled up (she was driving) and she got out and asked to see our registrations.

I asked her to articulate her probable cause for the request. She just looked at me, and then said she just wanted to make sure they were in order. I asked her if she could see the license plates and month and year stickers. She said yes. I said "then you have everything you need right there."

Her trainer was behind her, nodding, and said "I told you". She gave some attitude that you could tell he wasn't impressed with. He told her she doesn't really want to antagonize folks like us. She wanted to know why.

I asked her if she could see all of the antennas on my Jeep. She said yes.

One of the radios I have is a scanner that I have checking various systems, talkgroups, and frequencies appropriate to where ever I am. I asked her if she knew where her nearest backup was. She wasn't sure. I told her that it was the Utah County deputy about 13 miles down the road. He was stationary and just being seen.

I then explained to her that many of us were CFP holders (I think the Five-seveN in the thigh holster at my side was a clue), and since the majority of folks out there are good guys, if her trainer were ever to get in trouble I know that at least I'd be willing to help if I heard him calling for assistance on the radio.

But with her attitude, I let her know that she would be on her own until that deputy arrived.

At that point you could see that it was the first time she had ever considered that situation. She basically shut up at that point.

Her trainer and I then spent some time talking. We had met before and he recognized me and knew a little about me.

He said that they were seeing a lot like her coming into BLM and into the forest service. There are some folks that believe that if you can't walk or horseback somewhere, that you shouldn't be there. One of things they are doing to push their agenda is to get into ranger and LE programs, and then "make things unpleasant" for those that Jeep or ATV into areas. If they can be in our faces constantly, they figure that eventually we will go away. That is happening, today, all over the place.

Then you have people like the one in this story that elected to just take action and hope it worked out. "Better to apologize than ask permission".

It's good be aware of what's up.

Awesome story! Thanks for sharing. I don't know what it is with female BLM rangers but I have witnessed the same kind of attitude with many of them. They are usually of the "butch" type.

[LowRyter]

I like traveling there. The wife and I drove the touring bike over Cottonwood pass from Buena Vista to Crested Butte. Had great times in Salida, Gunnison, Black Canyon and on to Million Dollar HiWay. There are lots of spots to camp.

I never been to Pitkin. It looks like a one way road there like Crested Butte.

Anyway, I have to appreciate that we have Federal Lands that we can explore and camp. I'd hate for it to be taken over by developers and private interests. Hopefully some of the minor disagreements as mentioned can be resolved.