Adventures in alignment or wanderer no more

[Taco]

I got a new class C about 2 months ago from a dealer about 500 miles away. I was coming from a bumper pull toy hauler pulled by a silverado 2500hd that towed solid as a rock. I had a nice long drive home to get to know my first motorhome. It only took a few miles and I was really starting to wonder what I had gotten myself into. This thing was really a chore to drive, any irregularity in the road and it would take off in random directions. It was really taking some concentration to keep this thing on the road. I figured they must not all be like that or nobody would have one. I have driven race cars, heavy equipment, towed large trailers, driven in snow, off road, dirt bikes, motorcycles, pretty much anything with wheels. I don't shake easily behind the wheel of a vehicle and if it was bothering me then it must not be normal.

When I got it home I started researching how to fix this thing. I started with the sticky FAQ on this page. There was not real agreement on what to do. Many said take it to an alignment shop, some advocated, shocks, steering stabilizers, 17.5 inch wheels and real truck tires, sway bars, track bars, air bags, etc....

Many said that the best first step was to take it to an alignment shop. So I started to focus on that. I wanted to find what were the proper specs for motorhome handling. I came across a number of posts by the member on here that goes by Harvard on this board. He had handling problems that seemed similar to mine and he had increased his caster from approx 3.5 degrees to 5.5 degrees. He said this had helped tremendously. I went out and checked my caster and it was also about 3.5 degrees. My camber was around a positive .25-.5 degrees and I didn't really measure toe but visually it appeared to have a slight toe in (which is good).

I looked up the ford alignment specs and found.

Camber +0.5 +/- 0.5
Toe +0.06 +/- 0.25
Caster Min 2.0 Max 7.5

Whoa, look how wide that caster spec is. I knew that my camber was lose enough, the toe looked good, but I was at the low end of the caster range.

The only way to adjust caster and camber is with new bushings so I went and bought myself some 4 degree adjustable caster camber bushings and got to work. I adjusted the bushings to add 3 degrees of positive caster from stock settings and set it neutral on camber which in effect was -0.25 from stock since the stock alignment had a +0.25 bushing for camber.

So now I am at about 6.5 degrees of positive caster, around 0 degrees of camber, and a slight toe in. As best as my research can tell these are some decent specs for stability. Everything seems to indicate that within reason there is no down side to positive caster other than increased steering effort. I also upped the air bag pressure from 30 to 80.

I take it out for a test drive and it is night and day better. Yes the steering effort is more difficult but it is now easy to drive and while still not a corvette it now handles as normal as a 32 ft box on wheels can.

I just wrote this to help people know exactly what alignment parameters are what improves the handling. If I had taken it to an alignment shop they very easily could have told me that it didn't need an alignment because everything was within ford specs. However the caster spec is so wide that depending on where in that broad range you are is a large difference in handling.

When you guys go to the alignment shop make sure you have a discussion first about what specs are right for the handling you are wanting.

I would want MY class C around this:

Caster 5.5-6.5 degrees positive
Camber Neutral
Toe 1/8" toe in

[pnichols]

leeper wrote:
I think when the frame has been extended, everything the FORD factory did has gone out the window. Not the same vehicle any more. Engineering specs don't exist anymore.

Well stated!

But there's a big HOWEVER ... some owners of even small Class C motorhomes (22-26 feet) based on the Ford E350/E450 chassis complain of handling issues ... and in these lengths frame extension is small(er). What's going on, anyway. :h

For what it's worth, our 24 foot E450 Class C has handled well (not including the rough ride in the rear from chassis underloading, weight-wise) from the day we bought it. I did have it aligned early-on though, but for no real handling reason ... mainly because I thought it was the proper thing to do. I always run with 80 lbs. of air pressure in the rear duals even though our RV's weight loading does not require it. This makes for an even rougher ride in the rear, but may have something to do with the RV always feeling very stable on the open road. Note that softer tires make for more side-to-side "squishiness" as regards to lateral stablity on curves and in cross-winds. We run with 65 lbs. of pressure in the front tires. Our ride in the front is very pleasant and comfortable ... and my DW is an "expert at evaluating ride comfort " due to her sensitive back issues.

[pauldub]

How about the toe readings? Do you have those?

[Harvard]

AJR wrote:
Fwiw
I just had an alignment on my 2010 E350 with 7300 miles on it. I bought it last fall and in a cross wind it was real hard to drive. Big trucks no problem.

First the camber was way off.
Initial Final
+1 ¼ +3/4
+1/8 +1/4

Caster
Initial Final
+4 ¼ +4 5/8
+4 1/8 +5 ¼

I would like to thank Harvey for his input on this issue. On the way home I kinda thought there was across wind. It was when I saw flags straight out perpendicular to the road I knew there was a cross wind. This forum is such a great place to get help and information. Thank you all.

This recap of your experience is pure speculation.

I am guessing your E350 rides for and aft level because your before settings were +4.25 and +4.125 (as opposed to what I think is a typical +3.25 and +3.50 caster with a 1.0 degree nose down vehicle). As such, if your alignment sleeves were selected to potentially add +2.0 degrees caster then your after caster could have been in the vicinity of +6.0 and +6.125.

Many E series owners report a significant improvement in handling just by reducing the tire pressure to what is actually required for the load. I can only assume your improvement is the result of +0.375 and +1.125 caster being added which is very big change in the dynamics compared to just reducing some tire pressure. If that is the case then just think of the difference had you ended up in the vicinity of +6.25 and +6.50.

If you ever have doubts about how well your rig handles do not hesitate to go back for the additional +caster. JMO.

I really do apologize for not cluing in on my E450 as having a nose down attitude of 1.0 degrees right up front because it means the final target could be +6.25 and +6.50 on a nose level unit. Instead, my initial posts had the target set for +5.25 and +5.50 unknowingly for a 1.0 nose down unit. Where as +6.25 and +6.50 would be the better target.

Having said all this your new caster settings are giving you about the same run time caster dynamics as I have on my E450 but my black and white change to get here was +2.0 degrees. Your change was as much +1.125.

[AJR]

Fwiw
I just had an alignment on my 2010 E350 with 7300 miles on it. I bought it last fall and in a cross wind it was real hard to drive. Big trucks no problem.

First the camber was way off.
Initial Final
+1 ¼ +3/4
+1/8 +1/4

Caster
Initial Final
+4 ¼ +4 5/8
+4 1/8 +5 ¼

I would like to thank Harvey for his input on this issue. On the way home I kinda thought there was across wind. It was when I saw flags straight out perpendicular to the road I knew there was a cross wind. This forum is such a great place to get help and information. Thank you all.

[j-d]

Quigley uses F-350 4*4 parts (and from what I understand some proprietary parts too), to convert E-450 (and presumably E-250/350 also) to 4*4's.

Taco, do you have an online link to the instruction sheet for your ACDelco bushings? I'd like to see how they adjust up to 4-degrees!

[Taco]

Quigley like a 4x4 setup? I know some 4x4 use those bushings but I have no idea which model running gear quigley uses

[j-d]

^^^Good! Keep us up on your progress and let us know if you need any help.

[deprived]

Harvard wrote:
beyond my pay scale.

j-d wrote:
^^^ YES! Same Bushings.

Thanks and thanks! Ordered them.

[leeper]

I think when the frame has been extended, everything the FORD factory did has gone out the window. Not the same vehicle any more. Engineering specs don't exist anymore.

[j-d]

^^^ YES! Same Bushings.

[Harvard]

deprived wrote:
Harvard - later on next month I will be upgrading my front end from the stock 2007 to a 2014 from Quigley. Do you think the Ingalls 594s are the correct caster bushings for the 2014?

The description on the Ingalls site seems to indicate that they'll be just fine but some of the year-ranges seem to suggest it won't work.

http://www.ingallseng.com/59400-fully-adjustable-camber-caster-bushing-ford_pinch-bolt-axles.html

2002-2000 Ford E-450 Econoline Super Duty
2002-2000 Ford E-450 Econoline Super Duty Str
2012-2003 Ford E-450 Super Duty

The last line indicates 2012-2003. As far as i know there is no difference between a 2012 and a 2014.

Confusin' stuff. Whatcha think?

Sorry I cannot provide any assistance on this, beyond my pay scale. Perhaps j-d can chime in with some insight.

[deprived]

Harvard - later on next month I will be upgrading my front end from the stock 2007 to a 2014 from Quigley. Do you think the Ingalls 594s are the correct caster bushings for the 2014?

The description on the Ingalls site seems to indicate that they'll be just fine but some of the year-ranges seem to suggest it won't work.

http://www.ingallseng.com/59400-fully-adjustable-camber-caster-bushing-ford_pinch-bolt-axles.html

2002-2000 Ford E-450 Econoline Super Duty
2002-2000 Ford E-450 Econoline Super Duty Str
2012-2003 Ford E-450 Super Duty

The last line indicates 2012-2003. As far as i know there is no difference between a 2012 and a 2014.

Confusin' stuff. Whatcha think?

[Harvard]

Hank85713 wrote:
I went to a local truck alignment place yesterday to ask about my 2012 E450 problems. I asked if the R&R of the sway bars would do anything to help. I also asked about the changes on the camber as have been reported here and their response to both was to let them look 1st. They did say if not having bow wave push that the sway bars would do little. As to the camber changes they said increased tire wear would be the result. The said to add (already have) rear air assist and try. I run around 55-60 psi in the airbags and it did help. They also told me that they had another winnebago in the shop with 20K on it and it had worn front end parts forget which but I think they said tierod ends. Anyhow haven't gotten the thing out yet to be checked will let ya know. They also said not to worry about getting it aligned with travel weights loaded that the basic weight was fine.

Are you sure you are not mixing up CAMBER and CASTER. It is the CASTER setting where we are recommending to be set in the high end of normal. NOT CAMBER. Caster does not effect tire wear.

[Hank85713]

I went to a local truck alignment place yesterday to ask about my 2012 E450 problems. I asked if the R&R of the sway bars would do anything to help. I also asked about the changes on the camber as have been reported here and their response to both was to let them look 1st. They did say if not having bow wave push that the sway bars would do little. As to the camber changes they said increased tire wear would be the result. The said to add (already have) rear air assist and try. I run around 55-60 psi in the airbags and it did help. They also told me that they had another winnebago in the shop with 20K on it and it had worn front end parts forget which but I think they said tierod ends. Anyhow haven't gotten the thing out yet to be checked will let ya know. They also said not to worry about getting it aligned with travel weights loaded that the basic weight was fine.