Any Winnebago factory workers lurking?

[cameronpatentla]

I just had an interesting dialogue with one of my blog followers (era70x.com) concerning their recently ordered 2016 Winnebago ERA 70X. You can read it in the comments at:

http://era70x.com/2015/07/28/warranty-work-all-done-almost-maybe/

So, based on this non-scientific sample, I am reluctantly coming to the conclusion that Winnebago needs to seriously improve its Quality Control processes. Are there any Winnebago factory lurkers on these forums who can anonymously enlighten us on what is going on in the Forest City factory such that the Winnebago units appear to have minimal or no QC?

What is the attitude of the Winnebago factory workers? Do they care about their work product? Does Winnebago management realize that there is a problem here? Do they care?

I am not looking for the marketing speak from corporate ("we strive to provide the highest quality, blah blah, blah...) Just the straight scoop on why these expensive coaches seem to have so many issues. I am not looking to bash a company just for the sport of it--I would really like to see Winnebago create a high quality, zero defect product (Winnebago as the Toyota of the RV industry).

Cheers, Mike
era70x.com

[ClassB4Me]

cameronpatentlaw wrote:

ClassB4Me wrote:
Winnebago management is not the problem. The consumer needs to own this issue.

Well articulated post. Do you mind if I include it, in its entirety (without edits), in my blog, era70x.com? I'll certainly give you full credit. Best, Mike

Thanks for the kind words...

Sure, had read some of your posts from TheFitRV site awhile back. I was very interested as James was looking for a replacement for their older RV. Planning to purchase a newer (2014-2016) Class B RV that I can get as close to a true four-season RV.

Owned a Sprinter Westfalia in the past and loved the MB drivetrain and want a less flashy but more practical Class B for cross country driving trips and boondocking.

Using the Alde system in your coach yet?

[ClassB4Me]

Winnebago management is not the problem. The consumer needs to own this issue.

I used to travel to the large RV shows in Europe wanting what I thought were better built and more technically advanced RVs. I also went on RV forums complaining about American RV quality control. I have come to the conclusion that the problem primarily is the Consumer / Purchaser.

Simply put.... These products are too complicated of a transaction for most purchasers to handle. In many respects, RVs are far more complicated than the purchase of a home. Any of us get what we deserve when we treat a RV purchase in the same manner we would purchase a consumer product at Walmart.

THE PRODUCT
1) RV manufacturers (most) know what motivates the sell of these products (paint / flash / the dream of RVing)
2) RV manufacture is still a small lot craftsman style effort with tons of complexity not approaching the QA/Testing performed in the automotive industry for volume vehicles and it shows in the build quality
3) Coaches are heavily dependent on third-party suppliers for most of the house components - selections being driven primarily by price. Therefore the selection of parts suppliers based primarily on low defect rates would dramatically improve the ownership experience.

THE TRANSACTION
1) Most consumers let the RV seller drive the terms of the purchase (which favors the seller) and extend trust where it has not been verified or earned
2) Most consumers DO NOT hire / involve RV experts to do the independent checks necessary to protect the consumer against poor workmanship / misrepresentation BEFORE taking delivery.
3) Impulse RV buying by consumers keeps the industry alive but saddles consumers with debt for making the wrong purchase for their needs
4) With depreciation rates so high, the consumer needs to make sure the transaction minimizes financial risk exposure. A defect-ridden RV will be traded faster and put in the used market faster to unsuspecting purchasers.

POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS

• Negotiated purchase price should be as close to the wholesale value of the RV and what the insurer will pay-out should your RV be totaled the moment you drive off the lot
• Work with a legal advisor to review the purchase agreement and add the necessary addendums (purchase terms) to protect you from fraud before signing
• Do not accept product defects as a normal part of the purchasing experience (i.e. do not take delivery until all PDI items are corrected and validated). When I purchased my custom home, I hired an independent inspector to check at specific build stages, take photographs, and report issues to me.). This was built into the contract with the homebuilder and issues were resolved BEFORE CLOSING not after.
• Don't sign any contract before someone else (independent of the seller) reviews it and explains the terms / risks
• Make all deposits returnable (fully or partially) under specific mutually agreeable terms that protect you from poor workmanship /deception.

What motivation does a seller have to provide a problem-free new RV to a consumer if they know 90% of the purchasers will take delivery of their RV and provide the purchasing funds knowing these problems exist? The bar has sunk too low for the consumer. I would like to see a percentage of the purchase funds withheld at the PDI stage if the RV has clear problems that should have been caught during manufacture QA.

My time has a cost and is not free. Having to bring my RV back for PDI corrections adds to the final purchase price of the RV.

No one can afford to give away hard earned money to someone who has not fairly earned your business. Below is an example of an RV buyer who was determined to not to get shafted on a new Class A RV purchase greater than $400K. He knew his rights and the story is insightful. Upon full review of the story, he was quite justified in taking the position he took regarding the purchase.

http://www.outsideourbubble.com/winnebago-no-sale-of-special-ordered-coach-lack-of-build-quality

Even more disturbing was the statement that possible employees of the RV manufacturer appeared to read his blog posts about the issue and individuals within the company (IP addresses traced) posted negative replies (not identifying their relationship with the employer).

http://rvdailyreport.com/opinion/companies-ignore-customer-concerns-at-their-own-peril/

Very concerned and disappointed. I would like to know more about this unfortunate incident.

[loving_retireme]

PSW wrote:
I do not own a Class B at this time. I own a C. That being stated let me add that we had three Class Bs over the years. The fit and finish on all of them was very good to excellent. I am a stickler about these things and our last B was a 2007 Roadtrek 210P we ordered new as a present to each other for our thirtieth wedding anniversary. The quality was very good and the fit and finish were completely acceptable. That said, I don't think in the finite details it was as good as our old 1996 Roadtrek 190P.

Given that background here is my question:

We will, I am sure, return to the Class B world in a year or two and we want to start looking at them again. Given the demise of the old Chevy, Ford and Dodge vans from which Bs were built for decades and the opportunities for new chassis selections the choices are much broader now than in the past. My question to those that have owned Bs for many years and have newer ones now is simply how is the quality of the, say, 2013-16 models compared to those manufactured ten or so years ago? Brand new quality vs past quality?

Paul

Simple answer - not as good. I have made it a policy to check out as many new Class B's as possible each and every year. I have not found anything that would made me want to trade in my current 2002 Chevy 190P which I have owned for 10 years. It has had few RV related problems in all those years and has never has been to an RV dealer shop. The older Class B's built on Dodge and Chevy chassis before 2003 (end of the Dodge van) were extremely well built and I know of many with 180 to 250 thousand miles on them and still running great

[PSW]

I do not own a Class B at this time. I own a C. That being stated let me add that we had three Class Bs over the years. The fit and finish on all of them was very good to excellent. I am a stickler about these things and our last B was a 2007 Roadtrek 210P we ordered new as a present to each other for our thirtieth wedding anniversary. The quality was very good and the fit and finish were completely acceptable. That said, I don't think in the finite details it was as good as our old 1996 Roadtrek 190P.

Given that background here is my question:

We will, I am sure, return to the Class B world in a year or two and we want to start looking at them again. Given the demise of the old Chevy, Ford and Dodge vans from which Bs were built for decades and the opportunities for new chassis selections the choices are much broader now than in the past. My question to those that have owned Bs for many years and have newer ones now is simply how is the quality of the, say, 2013-16 models compared to those manufactured ten or so years ago? Brand new quality vs past quality?

Paul

[avanti]

cameronpatentlaw wrote:
I'm learning, slowly but surely, that there is less aggravation in just fixing the minor fit and finish issues myself. I think RV'ers develop sort of a Stockholm Syndrome. At first, we fight back against the injustice of spending high 5 figures for a vehicle with warranty issues, then we get so worn down, we just accept our fate. Someone pointed me to the Airstream site, where they lament build quality over there too. I guess I'm glad I bought a Winnebago on the MB chassis and not the Airstream on the MB chassis. Although the build quality on the AS is better, it too has its own set of issues.

I used to own a 2005 Interstate. That experience TOTALLY cured me of attempting to collect on upfitter warranties in all but the most extreme (and implausible) cases. Systems warranties, yes, but upfitter warranties--just do it yourself. I actually disagree that build quality of Airstream is better. Materials and systems, yes. But from what I have experienced with Airstream and seen at RV shows with Winnebago, I think that Winnebago's build quality is significantly better. Some of the stuff that was wrong with my Interstate was simply beyond the pale. And, as you can see from their discussion group, things have clearly not gotten better since then.

Our GWV Legend was vastly better in build quality than the interstate. I hope they make it out of their current difficulties.

[cameronpatentla]

wsfurrie wrote:
In 2000 we bought a new 35 ft Itasca Suncruiser. We settled on it mostly from reading reports from the RV Consumers Group. They gave it high marks for usability, handling, carrying capacity etc. The one negative was that we should expect small problems with the fit and finish on delivery. They were correct. Within a week I had about 15 items listed, crooked drawer, loose bracket etc. I fixed everything myself in a few hours, much faster than a trip back to the dealer. In the next 5 years we put 50k on it and never had another problem. It was one of the best thought-out rigs we have ever owned. We downsized to a PW but not because we didn't like the Itasca.

I'm learning, slowly but surely, that there is less aggravation in just fixing the minor fit and finish issues myself. I think RV'ers develop sort of a Stockholm Syndrome. At first, we fight back against the injustice of spending high 5 figures for a vehicle with warranty issues, then we get so worn down, we just accept our fate. Someone pointed me to the Airstream site, where they lament build quality over there too. I guess I'm glad I bought a Winnebago on the MB chassis and not the Airstream on the MB chassis. Although the build quality on the AS is better, it too has its own set of issues.

[wsfurrie]

In 2000 we bought a new 35 ft Itasca Suncruiser. We settled on it mostly from reading reports from the RV Consumers Group. They gave it high marks for usability, handling, carrying capacity etc. The one negative was that we should expect small problems with the fit and finish on delivery. They were correct. Within a week I had about 15 items listed, crooked drawer, loose bracket etc. I fixed everything myself in a few hours, much faster than a trip back to the dealer. In the next 5 years we put 50k on it and never had another problem. It was one of the best thought-out rigs we have ever owned. We downsized to a PW but not because we didn't like the Itasca.

[401nailhead]

I feel like I am in a time-warp with the Dodge - Toyota discussion going the way it is (relatively true info, no argument there, but a little dated overall). Lot's of new info to consider in last 10 years. Toyota has a good reputation, yes I have driven and known first hand, although I do not buy foreign or U.S. manufactured foreign, for reasons I won't go into here. We're not hijacking the thread though here, this is pertinent to Winnebago, its survival, and growth. Toyota obviously has a reputation of quality, and at times, its height of reputation was deserved in comparison to other makes. However, Winnebago would do well to follow the recent model of Dodge (or more accurately, Chrysler/Jeep overall). First, let's get this out of the way - 125K miles for a modern Dart is no problem whatsoever. Bank on it. Take for example our 240k Spirit when traded, 140k voyager when sold, 135k current caravan going strong, 110k Sebring going strong, 102k Caliber going strong, etc. We're talking modern conditions (where quality ratings, sales, industry leading warranties, and popularity i.e. Challenger/Charger/300 are competitive). Chrysler sales discounts are among the best, as are their warranties (I am running two Dodges with lifetime powertrain warranties (free with purchase) and lifetime bumper to bumper warranties (purchased reasonably). Current Dodge warranties are among the best in the industry, reflecting their confidence in build, yet still are among the best in pricing discounts.

Sorry if that was too long, now back to Winnebago. Winnebago is also an old, well known make, looking to reclaim/refurbish their name for value and quality, innovation and features. We agree in most of what is being discussed. Winnebago can work to be ABOVE expectations with quality and innovation for the price. Keep their good prices and deeper discounts, and value of features, including unique features. Although I have not researched their warranties, their build reputation will need polishing to go along with a strong warranty or other product backing, and they will benefit from a positive response. Travato is extremely innovative in layout design and features for the price. I know less about ERA, except I have looked one over, and it is initially impressive. There are many, many similarities in Winnebago history and current potential, and the rebirth of Chrysler (Dodge). Chrysler is on a 63 month sales growth streak, if anyone hasn't been keeping up, as proof of their success. And for consumers who wonder, that is based on quality, price discounts, and warranty strength (in my opinion). We agree, Winnebago can make its move in Class B and elsewhere. To do that, they must respond and grow in quality. It won't need to be first rate handcrafting, but high quality workmanship for the cost. The features are there: consider Travato with one of the best showers, rear load and storage of cargo, dinette and sleeping more than 2. Front wheel drive and wider van, built on a popular delivery van platform (reportedly #1 in Europe - Ducato), low price point, big discounts on top of that. The pieces are in place. They will likely never be seen as the #1 quality or prestige leader of the Class B pack, but you are right, they should not aim at "quality for what you paid for", but rather, "phenomenal quality for the price". And we agree, that can be accomplished by good management and good team pride in the builders. Ideally, they will grow a little further in Class B floorplans, to meet the demand of diffent interests. Not bashing Toyota at all, but the Dodge/Chrysler story of the last 10 years is more pertinent to Winnebago at this time in history, and not a bad track to be on, at all. Cheers!

[cameronpatentla]

Davydd wrote:
Six Sigma: Data metrics to disguise poor management, suppress common sense and discourage initiative. Been there, done that, and have seen the results. I thought you were on to something until you brought that up. You just have a burr under your saddle.

Dang, I should have known when to shut up! :S

Cheers! Mike

[cameronpatentla]

avanti wrote:
I hate to say it, but we DO need to keep in mind what industry we are talking about. In the RV world, you certainly pay for what you get, but you don't necessarily get what you pay for. The poster child for this is Airstream. Our last rig was a 2005 Interstate. There was a lot to like about it, but the initial build quality was frankly a disgrace. I won't bore you with the specifics, but a lot of them were beyond ridiculous. If this thread:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f240/airstream-quality-control-137852.html

and many others like it over at the Airstream Forum is any evidence, things have only gotten worse in the intervening years. It took about 10 minutes at Hershey for us to cross Airstream off of our list. I mention them in particular only because you pay maybe a 30% premium for the Airstream name compared to the competition. As far as I can see, you get NOTHING for that premium beyond the name. I wasn't blown away by Winnebago at Hershey, either. But compared to Airstream, they seemed like a class act.

Thanks for the pointer to the Airstream forums. Yep, a lot of the same concerns there as here. At least I paid $40,000 less for my Class B. I think several commentators over there share my sentiments--as long as RV consumers continue to allow RV manufacturers to get away with poor quality, RV manufacturers will keep providing poor quality RVs! Cheers, Mike

[Davydd]

Six Sigma: Data metrics to disguise poor management, suppress common sense and discourage initiative. Been there, done that, and have seen the results. I thought you were on to something until you brought that up. You just have a burr under your saddle.

[cameronpatentla]

Hi bobojay5. Like many on these forums, I'm old enough to remember what cars coming out of Detroit were like in the mid-70s to mid-80s. At that time, people said the same things about new American cars--It was a given that you probably would have to take your new Olds, Chrysler (K-Car), Ford, etc. in for adjustments/warranty work, that's just the way it was and if one thought otherwise, they too had unrealistic expectations. It took Japan to show that Americans need not settle for that status quo. American car makers are still behind, but at least they are doing better, quality-wise. That's what competition does.

I'd love to see an RV manufacturer capitalize on the current state of RV manufacturing and produce a near-zero defect product (Six Sigma anyone?). The fit and finish defects on my coach could have been fixed at the factory at little additional cost. But as long as we are content with mediocrity, things won't change. I do not apologize, as an RV consumer, for demanding excellence and quality from all American RV manufacturers. The fact that others are resigned to sub-par RV products is instructive as to why China is kicking our butt in manufacturing! Cheers! Mike

[bobojay5]

To the OP, your expectations are unrealistic for the price you are paying for your unit. Even the $150k+ units have issues when they roll out. More so in fact. Look at all the issues you see on Roadtreks and Airstream class B's that people have recently been posting on their forums.
We know a lot of folks that have boo koo issues with their new RV's, 2 of which had to go back to the factory, be completely disassembled, and started over again from scratch, (neither of which were WGO units)


It's the RV industry as a whole, not just WGO......

Edit: incidentally, the guy that had the 2009 ERA Dodge Sprinter with all the issues? Most of those were dealer caused items. Admittedly the pre 2012 ERA, the '09's and '10's were not up to the standards they should have been. That's the main reason WGO stopped for one year at 2011, fixed the main issues and materials, and resumed with the 3500 chassis in 2012 with the 70X, then the 70A & C were added.
The current take rate on these models is overwhelmingly in the favor of the 70A, like 70+%, with the X & C taking up the rest of the numbers

[avanti]

I hate to say it, but we DO need to keep in mind what industry we are talking about. In the RV world, you certainly pay for what you get, but you don't necessarily get what you pay for. The poster child for this is Airstream. Our last rig was a 2005 Interstate. There was a lot to like about it, but the initial build quality was frankly a disgrace. I won't bore you with the specifics, but a lot of them were beyond ridiculous. If this thread:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f240/airstream-quality-control-137852.html

and many others like it over at the Airstream Forum is any evidence, things have only gotten worse in the intervening years. It took about 10 minutes at Hershey for us to cross Airstream off of our list. I mention them in particular only because you pay maybe a 30% premium for the Airstream name compared to the competition. As far as I can see, you get NOTHING for that premium beyond the name. I wasn't blown away by Winnebago at Hershey, either. But compared to Airstream, they seemed like a class act.