Check Engine Light...Going on 5 years & 20,000 miles...

[T-Rex]

After 5 years (and 20,000 miles) of owning my 2007 Class C RV with an E450 chassis, I am finally committed to resolving what should have been addressed right way. The prior owner had taken the RV to a Ford Dealership service center after seeing a Check Engine Light (CEL), and they replaced an oxygen sensor for over $600. The problem initially appeared to have been resolved, but soon later, it reappeared. Since it never posed a significant problem, I've always just erased the code and went on my merry way. I recently saw a forum post stating that a "stuck lean" code could indicate a problem that may be engine damaging, and so I'm FINALLY anxious to get this properly resolved.

When I start the engine for the first time on a given day, the engine usually runs fairly rough and sounds like it may stall (though it never has), and sometimes this rough idle is accompanied by the CEL. Eventually it "smooths out" on it's own, especially if I give it a little gas. If the engine has already been warmed up, and I start the engine, it immediately runs smoothly and no CEL appears. Over the past year or so, it's only been a P2195 code, but previously, I've seen P2196, P2197 and P0105.

If it's not too difficult, I'm willing to try replacing sensors with new ones or just clean the existing ones. Even if I guess wrong once or twice about which part is defective, I'm probably better off financially than if I took it to a Ford dealership.

I would really appreciate any thoughts of the root cause of this issue given the signs and symptoms above, and thoughts about a novice tackling a repair himself.

Thank you,
Eric

[Chum_lee]

"The K&N filter might have something to do with your issues. From what I understand, even slightly over-oiling the filter can lead to a fouled MAF sensor, which sounds like it may be one of the things contributing to your CEL codes."

"When I bought this 2007 RV in 2015, it was 8 years old, but had only 9,000 miles on it. With so few miles at the time, my guess is that the prior owner never cleaned the K&N filter, and therefore, over-oiling of the filter isn't causing MAF sensor problems. Nevertheless, I will be cleaning the MAF sensor in case it's gotten dirty for any reason."

The following is strictly MY opinion from years of direct experience. (with K & N air filters)

Whenever I see a K & N air filter, I do the following:

1. Remove the K & N air filter and all related components.

2. Hold the filter above the appropriate sized waste receptacle.

3. Open your hand.

4. If the filter falls into the waste receptacle, go to step 6.

5. If the filter fails to fall into the waste receptacle, repeat steps 2 and 3 until it does, then go to step 6.

6. Replace the K & N filter with a new OEM pleated paper element.

If the OEM airbox and other intake components have previously been removed/modified, you will need to replace them. Look for a vacuum leak in the intake system. When the engine is running rough (cold) spray propane (unlit from a torch) around all the vacuum hoses and connections on the engine. When the engine smooths out, you found the leak. Or, it's sufficiently warm to run smoothly. In that case you'll need to start again later, . . . . when the engine is cold.

Chum lee

[T-Rex]

In case anyone is wondering, I cleaned the MAF sensor and replaced the K&N Air Filter. Then I went on a camping trip and put on about 200 miles. My check engine light did not come on at all. I'm hopeful the 5-year long intermittent CEL issue is resolved, but I'll feel more sure about this after a few additional trips as it was intermittent previously.

[danojeno]

I had a somewhat similar experience, although on the Chevy side. It sometimes took a bit to start and was rough on idle until I goosed it a little. It ended up being the fuel pump. After it sat for a bit, the fuel pressure dropped and it took a while to get it up again. It ran great after the the initial start up and goose. It would even start right back up fine. Not that you want to just go throwing parts at it, but that's what mine was. Also, K&N are actual garbage. I learned this running quads in the dunes. Use a stock paper filter.

[theoldwizard1]

T-Rex wrote:
When I bought this 2007 RV in 2015, it was 8 years old, but had only 9,000 miles on it. With so few miles at the time, my guess is that the prior owner never cleaned the K&N filter, and therefore, over-oiling of the filter isn't causing MAF sensor problems.

This is the big problem with K&N filter ! The say they last 10 years. That is for the filter itself.

They should be cleaned and re-oiled about every 5,000-10,000 miles or once a year. More often in dusty conditions.

[CharlesinGA]

Take that K&N filter and throw it away!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Use mineral spirits or similar and wipe all of the oil residue out of the airbox and tubes going to the engine. If necessary remove them, wash them out with Dawn degt, and dry them out and reassemble the whole mess, Use the MAF cleaner to clean the sensor.

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, I quit reading on page 2 after I saw K&N mentioned. The DO NOT clean the air better than a normal filter, they just allow for a greater flow of air, which means more stuff has to be getting thru that is bad for the engine. Some will argue this, but That is ONE place you need to start. Then work on the rough idle issue.

Charles

[bobndot]

Beaker wrote:

I thought the OP has a code tester , he has been erasing the codes, its a recurring problem with that 2195 code.

Recent experience with Dodge dealer.

1999 dakota cel with code showing 02 sensor.
Sensor replaced, code still showing.
Dealer said pcm.
Changed pcm, code still showing.
Dealer said bad pcm. Was replaced. Code still showing, said bad pcm.
Pcm(remanufactured) replaced. Code still showing.
After spending $500 at dealer they would not pursue anymore.
Indepedent shop at $50/hour. Gave them 2 hours at no risk.
They found broken wire.


I won't talk about the A/C the dealer couldn't fix for 2 years.
Independent dealer fixed in 20 minutes for $20 dollars.

Not saying this is your problem.
Just saying that mechanics are trained to follow a,b,c and cannot find problems that do not follow the "rule".

Forgot to say dodge dealer mechanic was "certified master mechanic"

Hey, its your fault. I'll bet that you failed to give that certified mechanic the light test. Shine a flashlight in one ear, if you see shining thru the other side, don't leave the vehicle there. 🙂

[Beaker]

I thought the OP has a code tester , he has been erasing the codes, its a recurring problem with that 2195 code.

Recent experience with Dodge dealer.

1999 dakota cel with code showing 02 sensor.
Sensor replaced, code still showing.
Dealer said pcm.
Changed pcm, code still showing.
Dealer said bad pcm. Was replaced. Code still showing, said bad pcm.
Pcm(remanufactured) replaced. Code still showing.
After spending $500 at dealer they would not pursue anymore.
Indepedent shop at $50/hour. Gave them 2 hours at no risk.
They found broken wire.

I won't talk about the A/C the dealer couldn't fix for 2 years.
Independent dealer fixed in 20 minutes for $20 dollars.

Not saying this is your problem.
Just saying that mechanics are trained to follow a,b,c and cannot find problems that do not follow the "rule".

Forgot to say dodge dealer mechanic was "certified master mechanic"

[T-Rex]

BurbMan wrote:
Apply logic here: The MAF measures incoming air and the then PCM pulses the fuel injectors to dispense the right amount of fuel. If the O2 sensor says the mixture is always too lean, that means too little fuel or too much air. If too much air, then either the MAF is sending the wrong reading, or air is getting in somewhere after the MAF.

The lean code is also the symptom, fix the rough idle and the code will go away. Since the O2 sensor was already changed it's likely not that.

1. Get some MAF cleaner from the auto parts store and clean the MAF. DO NOT use any other chemical to clean the MAF.
2. Replace the air filter.
3. Check all vacuum lines for leaks, the V-10 has the known issue Grit Dog mentioned, the hove from the PCV melting.
4. Check for air leaks, be sure all bolts are tight to throttle body and intake manifold.
5. Check air intake tube after the MAF for cracks, etc.

A lean condition can also be caused by too little fuel, so it's possible one or more injectors on bank 1 are clogged or defective, but this is much less likely at this mileage that an air leak.

I'm with you on the "Apply logic here" advice. I'm going to clean the MAF sensor, but as others have mentioned, it seems that this would cause the CEL all the time, and I can definitely drive the RV a few hundred miles with stops along the way and not see the CEL. I don't even have it come on every cold start. It's just an occasional thing.
So, I don't think the MAF sensor will turn out to be the culprit.

Since the CEL only appears after some cold starts (and mild rough idling), I'm wondering if a small vacuum leak would have such a symptom. Does a cold engine require more of a vacuum draw than a warmed-up engine for some reason?

Alternatively, would a cold engine do something to the fuel injectors (or something else in the fuel system) that would occasionally cause an insufficient quantity of fuel? I do know that if I press the gas pedal slightly, I prevent the rough idle and the CEL.

Thanks everyone. Hopefully, I'll have a chance to visit the RV this weekend and check things out!

[T-Rex]

rjstractor wrote:

T-Rex wrote:
I can (and have) changed the oil. I've also recently changed (actually, reconditioned, the K&N air filter). This is pretty much the extent of anything I've ever done on an engine; however, with detailed instructions, I'm ready and willing to expand my meager experience.

The K&N filter might have something to do with your issues. From what I understand, even slightly over-oiling the filter can lead to a fouled MAF sensor, which sounds like it may be one of the things contributing to your CEL codes.

Thanks for your comment. I actually did clean it, but the CEL light continues to show it's ugly head.

[T-Rex]

rjstractor wrote:

T-Rex wrote:
I can (and have) changed the oil. I've also recently changed (actually, reconditioned, the K&N air filter). This is pretty much the extent of anything I've ever done on an engine; however, with detailed instructions, I'm ready and willing to expand my meager experience.

The K&N filter might have something to do with your issues. From what I understand, even slightly over-oiling the filter can lead to a fouled MAF sensor, which sounds like it may be one of the things contributing to your CEL codes.

Thanks for your comment!

When I bought this 2007 RV in 2015, it was 8 years old, but had only 9,000 miles on it. With so few miles at the time, my guess is that the prior owner never cleaned the K&N filter, and therefore, over-oiling of the filter isn't causing MAF sensor problems. Nevertheless, I will be cleaning the MAF sensor in case it's gotten dirty for any reason.

[rjstractor]

T-Rex wrote:
I can (and have) changed the oil. I've also recently changed (actually, reconditioned, the K&N air filter). This is pretty much the extent of anything I've ever done on an engine; however, with detailed instructions, I'm ready and willing to expand my meager experience.

The K&N filter might have something to do with your issues. From what I understand, even slightly over-oiling the filter can lead to a fouled MAF sensor, which sounds like it may be one of the things contributing to your CEL codes.

[theoldwizard1]

T-Rex wrote:
I can (and have) changed the oil. I've also recently changed (actually, reconditioned, the K&N air filter).

K&N filters are known to cause problems with MAF sensors. As mentioned, clean it !

[carringb]

It’s not likely the MAF is the culprit in this case. A dirty MAF will cause a lean condition all the time, to the point it will cause pining, before it ever causes cold-start symptoms.

Vacuum leak is very likely. I even had the PCV valve pop out of the valve cover once, when I let it go about 100k too long and it plugged.

[BurbMan]

T-Rex wrote:
When you say that I should spray the contacts, are you referring to spraying the electrical connection that I disconnect in order to clean or replace the sensors (eg. MAF sensor)?

Not exactly...

The Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor sits in the air intake between the air filter and the throttle body. It looks like a piece of screen with very fine wires criss-crossing across the opening. These wires vibrate to measure the volume of air entering the engine, and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) uses this info to tell the fuel injectors how much fuel to add.

A typical sensor looks like this:



The wires can get dirty and send a bad reading to the PCM. The wires are VERY fragile so you need to be careful removing teh sensor and use ONLY cleaning fluid specified for MAF.

This is the correct cleaner:



Here is a You Tube Video on how to remove and clean a MAF. Your set up will be slightly different, but you'll be able to identify the parts and remove them after you watch the video.