Towing without a car braking system??

[supercub]

Just curious how many out there tow without a brake system. I have a brake system that has a light plus audio to alert you when the brake is on. Since I have a diesel pusher with an exhaust brake, which I use, I seldom have the aux brake system engage. So I was wondering, how necessary is it to actually have a brake system in the tow car if one has an exhaust brake?? Thanks
Brian

[wilco]

Question: We have two 25000# MHs towing 3500# cars. Each does a panic stop from 40 mph, one with a properly setup SBS and one with no SBS. What is the difference in stopping distance?

[mowermech]

Gjac wrote:

mowermech wrote:
North Carolina.
"

§ 20-124. Brakes.

(a) Every motor vehicle when operated upon a highway shall be equipped with brakes adequate to control the movement of and to stop such vehicle or vehicles, and such brakes shall be maintained in good working order and shall conform to regulations provided in this section.

(b) Repealed by Session Laws 1973, c. 1330, s. 39.

(c) Every motor vehicle when operated on a highway shall be equipped with brakes adequate to control the movement of and to stop and hold such vehicle, and shall have all originally equipped brakes in good working order, including two separate means of applying the brakes. If these two separate means of applying the brakes are connected in any way, they shall be so constructed that failure of any one part of the operating mechanism shall not leave the motor vehicle without brakes.

(d) Every motorcycle and every motor-driven cycle when operated upon a highway shall be equipped with at least one brake which may be operated by hand or foot.

(e) Motor trucks and tractor-trucks with semitrailers attached shall be capable of stopping on a dry, hard, approximately level highway free from loose material at a speed of 20 miles per hour within the following distances: Thirty feet with both hand and service brake applied simultaneously and 50 feet when either is applied separately, except that vehicles maintained and operated permanently for the transportation of property and which were registered in this or any other state or district prior to August, 1929, shall be capable of stopping on a dry, hard, approximately level highway free from loose material at a speed of 20 miles per hour within a distance of 50 feet with both hand and service brake applied simultaneously, and within a distance of 75 feet when either applied separately.

(e1) Every motor truck and truck-tractor with semitrailer attached, shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels, except trucks and truck-tractors having three or more axles need not have brakes on the front wheels if manufactured prior to July 25, 1980. However, such trucks and truck-tractors must be capable of complying with the performance requirements of G.S. 20-124(e).

(f) Every semitrailer, or trailer, or separate vehicle, attached by a drawbar or coupling to a towing vehicle, and having a gross weight of two tons, and all house trailers of 1,000 pounds gross weight or more, shall be equipped with brakes controlled or operated by the driver of the towing vehicle, which shall conform to the specifications set forth in subsection (e) of this section and shall be of a type approved by the Commissioner.

It shall be unlawful for any person or corporation engaged in the business of selling house trailers at wholesale or retail to sell or offer for sale any house trailer which is not equipped with the brakes required by this subsection.

This subsection shall not apply to house trailers being used as dwellings, or to house trailers not intended to be used or towed on public highways and roads. This subsection shall not apply to house trailers with a manufacturer's certificate of origin dated prior to December 31, 1974.

(g) The provisions of this section shall not apply to a trailer when used by a farmer, a farmer's tenant, agent, or employee if the trailer is exempt from registration by the provisions of G.S. 20-51. This exemption does not apply to trailers that are equipped with brakes from the manufacturer and that are manufactured after October 1, 2009.

(h) From and after July 1, 1955, no person shall sell or offer for sale for use in motor vehicle brake systems in this State any hydraulic brake fluid of a type and brand other than those approved by the Commissioner of Motor Vehicles. From and after January 1, 1970, no person shall sell or offer for sale in motor vehicle brake systems any brake lining of a type or brand other than those approved by the Commissioner of Motor Vehicles. Violation of the provisions of this subsection shall constitute a Class 2 misdemeanor. (1937, c. 407, s. 87; 1953, c. 1316, s. 2; 1955, c. 1275; 1959, c. 990; 1965, c. 1031; 1967, c. 1188; 1969, cc. 787, 866; 1973, c. 1203; c. 1330, s. 39; 1993, c. 539, s. 359; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2009-376, ss. 10, 11.)"

Note Subsection (f):
"Every semitrailer, or trailer, or separate vehicle,... having a gross weight of two tons..."

This is the only law I have found in my research that could be said to specifically address towed vehicles. Note that such a combination of vehicles must still comply with the provisions of Subsection (e), which is a braking performance standard such as that set by FMVSS!

So if I understand the legal req's brakes are only needed on a towed vehicle weighing more than 4000 lbs. Is that your interpretation?

That's the way it looks, yes.

[msmith1199]

fpresto wrote:
I have posted this before but most people talk about is it legal or not. Let me assure you that if you are involved in an accident with injuries a ticket will be the least of your worries. Remember in a civil suit against you it is the emotions of the jury that matter not just the law. Several years ago I had jury duty in my state (Maryland) one of the cases was a civil suit against a class "A" operator. I was not selected for the jury but because I was an RVer I was curious so I stayed around to watch. The facts of the case were pretty clear cut. A woman with two small children stopped at a light on yellow, the RV driver thought she was going through and rear ended her. The suit was for damages. His lawyer pointed out that he was legal in Maryland which has the very common performance based stopping law and his only ticket was failure to control his vehicle and some other minor ticket that I can't remember. Her lawyer harped on the fact that supplemental braking systems are available for towing (I believe he was towing a Saturn)and his not installing one showed a disregard for the safety of the motoring public and it could have been anyone on the jury or their families that he ran into and a supplemental system may have prevented the injuries to the poor innocent children. He was good and really knew how to play the jury. His lawyer kept countering that he was legal in Maryland but the pictures of the injured children and the damaged car sealed his fate with the jury and they returned a very large damage verdict. I do not know if his insurance covered all or any of it because, in Maryland at least, insurance can't be mentioned in a damage suit.

So he didn't realize she was going to stop for the yellow and rear ended her, but that was somehow caused by not having aux brakes? Rear end accidents happen all the time caused by cars with perfectly working brakes. In this trial was there any scientific testimony given to show the motorhome driver tried to stop but was unable to simply because he didn't have aux brakes, and had he had the brakes he would have stopped on time and nobody would have been hurt? If that testimony didn't come in then the jury can't use the statements the lawyer made as evidence and any award they gave was based on the facts of the case and not what the lawyer said. You rear end somebody who has stopped for a traffic signal you and/or your insurance is paying no matter what.

[rgatijnet1]

fpresto wrote:
I have posted this before but most people talk about is it legal or not. Let me assure you that if you are involved in an accident with injuries a ticket will be the least of your worries. Remember in a civil suit against you it is the emotions of the jury that matter not just the law. Several years ago I had jury duty in my state (Maryland) one of the cases was a civil suit against a class "A" operator. I was not selected for the jury but because I was an RVer I was curious so I stayed around to watch. The facts of the case were pretty clear cut. A woman with two small children stopped at a light on yellow, the RV driver thought she was going through and rear ended her. The suit was for damages. His lawyer pointed out that he was legal in Maryland which has the very common performance based stopping law and his only ticket was failure to control his vehicle and some other minor ticket that I can't remember. Her lawyer harped on the fact that supplemental braking systems are available for towing (I believe he was towing a Saturn)and his not installing one showed a disregard for the safety of the motoring public and it could have been anyone on the jury or their families that he ran into and a supplemental system may have prevented the injuries to the poor innocent children. He was good and really knew how to play the jury. His lawyer kept countering that he was legal in Maryland but the pictures of the injured children and the damaged car sealed his fate with the jury and they returned a very large damage verdict. I do not know if his insurance covered all or any of it because, in Maryland at least, insurance can't be mentioned in a damage suit.

Basically that just proves that you can be sued for anything, being legal or not doesn't matter. So if he wasn't sued for a brake that he didn't have he would have been sued for something else.

[fpresto]

I have posted this before but most people talk about is it legal or not. Let me assure you that if you are involved in an accident with injuries a ticket will be the least of your worries. Remember in a civil suit against you it is the emotions of the jury that matter not just the law. Several years ago I had jury duty in my state (Maryland) one of the cases was a civil suit against a class "A" operator. I was not selected for the jury but because I was an RVer I was curious so I stayed around to watch. The facts of the case were pretty clear cut. A woman with two small children stopped at a light on yellow, the RV driver thought she was going through and rear ended her. The suit was for damages. His lawyer pointed out that he was legal in Maryland which has the very common performance based stopping law and his only ticket was failure to control his vehicle and some other minor ticket that I can't remember. Her lawyer harped on the fact that supplemental braking systems are available for towing (I believe he was towing a Saturn)and his not installing one showed a disregard for the safety of the motoring public and it could have been anyone on the jury or their families that he ran into and a supplemental system may have prevented the injuries to the poor innocent children. He was good and really knew how to play the jury. His lawyer kept countering that he was legal in Maryland but the pictures of the injured children and the damaged car sealed his fate with the jury and they returned a very large damage verdict. I do not know if his insurance covered all or any of it because, in Maryland at least, insurance can't be mentioned in a damage suit.

[willald]

msmith1199 wrote:

conceptumator wrote:
For regulations by state, check out the website www.towingworld.com

Supercub: Your state trooper buddy is correct for CA....almost. The reg's there require you to have protection for braking the vehicle in case of breakaway. The only way you're going to get that is with a supplemental braking system. Better safe than sorry, for sure.

Towing world is lying to you in order to sell more products.

Pretty much.

Getting towing law information from ANY company involved in selling supplemental braking systems, is a lot like asking a car salesman whether you should buy a car from him or not. You pretty well know what he/she will say before you ask (and you also know that he/she is probably lying, haha). 🙂

Will

[msmith1199]

conceptumator wrote:
For regulations by state, check out the website www.towingworld.com

Supercub: Your state trooper buddy is correct for CA....almost. The reg's there require you to have protection for braking the vehicle in case of breakaway. The only way you're going to get that is with a supplemental braking system. Better safe than sorry, for sure.

Towing world is lying to you in order to sell more products.

[Gjac]

mowermech wrote:
North Carolina.
"

§ 20-124. Brakes.

(a) Every motor vehicle when operated upon a highway shall be equipped with brakes adequate to control the movement of and to stop such vehicle or vehicles, and such brakes shall be maintained in good working order and shall conform to regulations provided in this section.

(b) Repealed by Session Laws 1973, c. 1330, s. 39.

(c) Every motor vehicle when operated on a highway shall be equipped with brakes adequate to control the movement of and to stop and hold such vehicle, and shall have all originally equipped brakes in good working order, including two separate means of applying the brakes. If these two separate means of applying the brakes are connected in any way, they shall be so constructed that failure of any one part of the operating mechanism shall not leave the motor vehicle without brakes.

(d) Every motorcycle and every motor-driven cycle when operated upon a highway shall be equipped with at least one brake which may be operated by hand or foot.

(e) Motor trucks and tractor-trucks with semitrailers attached shall be capable of stopping on a dry, hard, approximately level highway free from loose material at a speed of 20 miles per hour within the following distances: Thirty feet with both hand and service brake applied simultaneously and 50 feet when either is applied separately, except that vehicles maintained and operated permanently for the transportation of property and which were registered in this or any other state or district prior to August, 1929, shall be capable of stopping on a dry, hard, approximately level highway free from loose material at a speed of 20 miles per hour within a distance of 50 feet with both hand and service brake applied simultaneously, and within a distance of 75 feet when either applied separately.

(e1) Every motor truck and truck-tractor with semitrailer attached, shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels, except trucks and truck-tractors having three or more axles need not have brakes on the front wheels if manufactured prior to July 25, 1980. However, such trucks and truck-tractors must be capable of complying with the performance requirements of G.S. 20-124(e).

(f) Every semitrailer, or trailer, or separate vehicle, attached by a drawbar or coupling to a towing vehicle, and having a gross weight of two tons, and all house trailers of 1,000 pounds gross weight or more, shall be equipped with brakes controlled or operated by the driver of the towing vehicle, which shall conform to the specifications set forth in subsection (e) of this section and shall be of a type approved by the Commissioner.

It shall be unlawful for any person or corporation engaged in the business of selling house trailers at wholesale or retail to sell or offer for sale any house trailer which is not equipped with the brakes required by this subsection.

This subsection shall not apply to house trailers being used as dwellings, or to house trailers not intended to be used or towed on public highways and roads. This subsection shall not apply to house trailers with a manufacturer's certificate of origin dated prior to December 31, 1974.

(g) The provisions of this section shall not apply to a trailer when used by a farmer, a farmer's tenant, agent, or employee if the trailer is exempt from registration by the provisions of G.S. 20-51. This exemption does not apply to trailers that are equipped with brakes from the manufacturer and that are manufactured after October 1, 2009.

(h) From and after July 1, 1955, no person shall sell or offer for sale for use in motor vehicle brake systems in this State any hydraulic brake fluid of a type and brand other than those approved by the Commissioner of Motor Vehicles. From and after January 1, 1970, no person shall sell or offer for sale in motor vehicle brake systems any brake lining of a type or brand other than those approved by the Commissioner of Motor Vehicles. Violation of the provisions of this subsection shall constitute a Class 2 misdemeanor. (1937, c. 407, s. 87; 1953, c. 1316, s. 2; 1955, c. 1275; 1959, c. 990; 1965, c. 1031; 1967, c. 1188; 1969, cc. 787, 866; 1973, c. 1203; c. 1330, s. 39; 1993, c. 539, s. 359; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2009-376, ss. 10, 11.)"

Note Subsection (f):
"Every semitrailer, or trailer, or separate vehicle,... having a gross weight of two tons..."

This is the only law I have found in my research that could be said to specifically address towed vehicles. Note that such a combination of vehicles must still comply with the provisions of Subsection (e), which is a braking performance standard such as that set by FMVSS!

So if I understand the legal req's brakes are only needed on a towed vehicle weighing more than 4000 lbs. Is that your interpretation?

[rgatijnet1]

As mowermech says, the states that have laws pattern them after FMVSS(for commercial vehicles) and the ones that do not have specific laws use the FMVSS.
FMVSS has separate specific braking standards for TRAILERS and for vehicles in tow.

The FMVSS does include statues which dictate which items in tow must have brakes, and which ones are excluded. FMVSS states: 393.42 Every CMV(commercial motor vehicle) must be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels, with the following exceptions:
Vehicles being towed in a driveaway-towaway operation.

To define that: The Federal definition of driveaway-towaway, according to 49 CFR 390.5 Title 49-Transportation; General Applicability and Definitions, driveaway-towaway operation means an operation in which an empty or unladen motor vehicle with one or more sets of wheels on the surface of the road way, is being transported by means of a saddle-mount or tow bar.

This is why there is NO federal standard for the various auxiliary braking systems sold for vehicles in tow. Since they are not required in any State, they are not regulated by any Federal standard. The manufacturers set their own standards. Whether they actually work at all depends on your settings, installation, and adjustments.
Those of you that have ever had a vehicle or their motor home towed probably noticed that the tow truck driver did not use a BrakeBuddy or similar braking system to tow that vehicle.
Think about what a brake system is. ALL motor vehicles, to be approved by DOT must prove that the brakes meet the minimum safety standards. I have had a few different auxiliary brake systems and NONE of them are approved by the DOT, or by any other Federal agency because they are NOT required.
Here is a link to a trailer brake control that is designed to meet DOT requirements. Trailer brake control
Show me any brake system for a toad that says that it meets the DOT requirements.

[mowermech]

North Carolina.
"

§ 20-124. Brakes.

(a) Every motor vehicle when operated upon a highway shall be equipped with brakes adequate to control the movement of and to stop such vehicle or vehicles, and such brakes shall be maintained in good working order and shall conform to regulations provided in this section.

(b) Repealed by Session Laws 1973, c. 1330, s. 39.

(c) Every motor vehicle when operated on a highway shall be equipped with brakes adequate to control the movement of and to stop and hold such vehicle, and shall have all originally equipped brakes in good working order, including two separate means of applying the brakes. If these two separate means of applying the brakes are connected in any way, they shall be so constructed that failure of any one part of the operating mechanism shall not leave the motor vehicle without brakes.

(d) Every motorcycle and every motor-driven cycle when operated upon a highway shall be equipped with at least one brake which may be operated by hand or foot.

(e) Motor trucks and tractor-trucks with semitrailers attached shall be capable of stopping on a dry, hard, approximately level highway free from loose material at a speed of 20 miles per hour within the following distances: Thirty feet with both hand and service brake applied simultaneously and 50 feet when either is applied separately, except that vehicles maintained and operated permanently for the transportation of property and which were registered in this or any other state or district prior to August, 1929, shall be capable of stopping on a dry, hard, approximately level highway free from loose material at a speed of 20 miles per hour within a distance of 50 feet with both hand and service brake applied simultaneously, and within a distance of 75 feet when either applied separately.

(e1) Every motor truck and truck-tractor with semitrailer attached, shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels, except trucks and truck-tractors having three or more axles need not have brakes on the front wheels if manufactured prior to July 25, 1980. However, such trucks and truck-tractors must be capable of complying with the performance requirements of G.S. 20-124(e).

(f) Every semitrailer, or trailer, or separate vehicle, attached by a drawbar or coupling to a towing vehicle, and having a gross weight of two tons, and all house trailers of 1,000 pounds gross weight or more, shall be equipped with brakes controlled or operated by the driver of the towing vehicle, which shall conform to the specifications set forth in subsection (e) of this section and shall be of a type approved by the Commissioner.

It shall be unlawful for any person or corporation engaged in the business of selling house trailers at wholesale or retail to sell or offer for sale any house trailer which is not equipped with the brakes required by this subsection.

This subsection shall not apply to house trailers being used as dwellings, or to house trailers not intended to be used or towed on public highways and roads. This subsection shall not apply to house trailers with a manufacturer's certificate of origin dated prior to December 31, 1974.

(g) The provisions of this section shall not apply to a trailer when used by a farmer, a farmer's tenant, agent, or employee if the trailer is exempt from registration by the provisions of G.S. 20-51. This exemption does not apply to trailers that are equipped with brakes from the manufacturer and that are manufactured after October 1, 2009.

(h) From and after July 1, 1955, no person shall sell or offer for sale for use in motor vehicle brake systems in this State any hydraulic brake fluid of a type and brand other than those approved by the Commissioner of Motor Vehicles. From and after January 1, 1970, no person shall sell or offer for sale in motor vehicle brake systems any brake lining of a type or brand other than those approved by the Commissioner of Motor Vehicles. Violation of the provisions of this subsection shall constitute a Class 2 misdemeanor. (1937, c. 407, s. 87; 1953, c. 1316, s. 2; 1955, c. 1275; 1959, c. 990; 1965, c. 1031; 1967, c. 1188; 1969, cc. 787, 866; 1973, c. 1203; c. 1330, s. 39; 1993, c. 539, s. 359; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2009-376, ss. 10, 11.)"

Note Subsection (f):
"Every semitrailer, or trailer, or separate vehicle,... having a gross weight of two tons..."

This is the only law I have found in my research that could be said to specifically address towed vehicles. Note that such a combination of vehicles must still comply with the provisions of Subsection (e), which is a braking performance standard such as that set by FMVSS!

[rgatijnet1]

CA Traveler wrote:

rgatijnet1 wrote:

CA Traveler wrote:


BTW Do you know what happens when the insurance company expenses (legal etc) reach your coverage limits?

Then my umbrella policy kicks in. Something everyone should have. :B

Agreed. And then what happens when that limit (or whatever limit you have) is reached?

My understanding is that that insurance is done with the case and you continue the case without further backing from the insurance company.

But it was a concern. While we had $1M in coverage the minister burned through 4 law firms before settling his bogus $500K case for $20K. And BTW he didn't file the claim until he found out how much coverage we had.

If I wanted to be totally safe from a lawsuit I would never drive on a highway, stay in my house 24/7, have my groceries delivered, and so on. I am not too concerned when I follow the ACTUAL laws rather than what is published by some website trying to sell me something. How many times have we seen people post about the salesman at a dealer? If his mouth is moving he is lying. Well, the same goes for websites that are trying to sell toad braking systems. None of them actually back up their claims with statute numbers and many of them just distort the facts by calling a toad a trailer.
As I have mentioned a bunch of times, I use an auxiliary brake in my toad, BUT, and this is important, I have never found ANY State that requires it by LAW. Opinions are not LAWS.
I challenge anyone to contact ANY State and post the actual reply that they have gotten, naming the person responding, that says specifically that auxiliary brakes are required, BY law.

[CA_Traveler]

rgatijnet1 wrote:

CA Traveler wrote:


BTW Do you know what happens when the insurance company expenses (legal etc) reach your coverage limits?

Then my umbrella policy kicks in. Something everyone should have. :B

Agreed. And then what happens when that limit (or whatever limit you have) is reached?

My understanding is that that insurance is done with the case and you continue the case without further backing from the insurance company.

But it was a concern. While we had $1M in coverage the minister burned through 4 law firms before settling his bogus $500K case for $20K. And BTW he didn't file the claim until he found out how much coverage we had.

[mowermech]

conceptumator wrote:
For regulations by state, check out the website www.towingworld.com

Supercub: Your state trooper buddy is correct for CA....almost. The reg's there require you to have protection for braking the vehicle in case of breakaway. The only way you're going to get that is with a supplemental braking system. Better safe than sorry, for sure.

While that website is one of the better ones, it still isn't completely accurate, at least for Montana.
Can you give us the actual California Statute that has the breakaway requirement?
The same question applies to Georgia; can you give us the statute that the officer will use to detain you and write the ticket?

[Mr_Mark1]

rgatijnet1 wrote:

conceptumator wrote:
For regulations by state, check out the website www.towingworld.com

Supercub: Your state trooper buddy is correct for CA....almost. The reg's there require you to have protection for braking the vehicle in case of breakaway. The only way you're going to get that is with a supplemental braking system. Better safe than sorry, for sure.

The breakaway requirements in California is for TRAILERS, not vehicles in tow.

Crazy, isn't it.

A trailer that comes loose will eventually stop because the tongue will be dragging causing resistance, a car has four wheels, it will travel quite a while before it hits something to stop. To me, that is SO much more dangerous.

We need common sense, sometimes the laws don't keep up.

MM.

[rgatijnet1]

CA Traveler wrote:


BTW Do you know what happens when the insurance company expenses (legal etc) reach your coverage limits?

Then my umbrella policy kicks in. Something everyone should have. :B