And Texas Caves In

[DallasSteve]

The last bastion of sanity has jumped on the "stay at home" bandwagon. They just sent me an email that they have closed all state parks to save the 1% who may die from the dreaded super virus. Texas was once a great state.

[ExxWhy]

bgum wrote:
No one has the right to act or do things that will make someone else sick and possibly lead to their death. This is well established in law. We have laws against drinking and driving and people infecting others with Aids or TB knowingly. Just to name two.
The dollar has caused enough deaths. We should listen to our medical and scientific community. This to shall pass. Don't listen to those who have no expertise in public health. When it is over the "me" generation will roar back stronger than ever.

40K die on the roads every year, many thousands more are maimed. Many or most of them because of someone else. How about if we close all the roads? No more car accidents and deaths. Maybe a lot of people might starve then, but we will have saved their life from a car accident.

This shutdown is NOT without cost in lives as well as money. How many will it kill from the stress of bankruptcy? How many lives will it destroy economically which will lead to even further problems, perhaps for generations? It is difficult to determine, but don't for a moment think "saving lives" comes without enormous costs of it's own.

[free_radical]

Worldwide statistic update on Cvirus

https://youtu.be/SLV1B5Lzy48

Opinion on fresh food markets in China
One from Fake News USA
And
FACTs from someone actualy living there

https://youtu.be/whbyuy2nHBg

Btw China brought Virus under control in 3 months,mainly bc everyone must wear mask when outside,

[dodge_guy]

Can’t wait till this is over so we can see the end result and watch the finger pointing start! I predict the numbers will be a lot lower than what are being reported now. This whole virus has gotten out of hand with how we have been reacting to it. It can be compared to the toilet paper hoarding. One person does it, and it snowballs from there and then it looks real bad when in reality it was never bad to begin with. Just like all the other viruses that have popped up every 4 years for as long as I can remember. And there were some numbers that make this virus look like a common cold!

[time2roll]

How are the gun sales in TX doing? I assume gun stores are still open. 😉

[DallasSteve]

bgum wrote:
No one has the right to act or do things that will make someone else sick and possibly lead to their death. This is well established in law. We have laws against drinking and driving and people infecting others with Aids or TB knowingly. Just to name two.
The dollar has caused enough deaths. We should listen to our medical and scientific community. This to shall pass. Don't listen to those who have no expertise in public health. When it is over the "me" generation will roar back stronger than ever.

I know Louisiana has a different law system than the rest of the country, but I think even Louisiana recognizes the difference between intentional and unintentional actions. If someone gets SARS or MERS or COVID-19 and then pass it on to someone else unintentionally they are not guilty of a crime. Maybe a tort (if you know what that is). There is your well established law. I don't know where you got your law degree, but you should ask for a refund.

[tomman58]

rhagfo wrote:

way2roll wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:

way2roll wrote:
According to the most recent data from the CDC, a month ago there were 279 cases in the US. Despite efforts to have people self quarantine and mandated closures, in the span of 30 days cases in the US have exploded to 375,000. With 12,000 deaths that's 3% mortality rate. Not 1% as some keep stating. That number continues to climb daily at the rate of 5-10% and not showing signs of slowing. Hospitals are overrun so much that decisions need to be made about who to save and who to let die. There are so many dead bodies that refrigerated trucks are needed at hospitals to store the corpses. This is not fear mongering, this is actually happening. While I agree that this is a wrecking ball through the economy, not just US but globally, are we to walk over dead bodies so we can eat at restaurants and shop? And it's not just TX, it's not just the US, this a global pandemic. Sure it's awful no matter which way you slice it, but I have seen a callous and morally bankrupt side of our fellow man that is rather disgusting. Anyone could be a carrier, and anyone could infect someone at risk and kill them. But selfishness and greed still prevail.

You say the number of cases have exploded, but consider why: there are now many, many more people being tested, but there are huge numbers of people that have it and have not been tested, and probably won't be tested because they show no symptoms.

Those numbers and percentages you're using are fallacious. Only based on speculation, not real data. No one knows how many people have, or have had, this virus. The only semi-hard data is from tests, so how accurate are those tests?

I know of two people that were showing all the symptoms, but were denied testing because they simply weren't sick enough. This is in one little town, how often does that happen everywhere else?

When I was sick with this thing back in December/January, no one had to tell me to "self quarantine", I knew enough not to expose other people to what I had. It's called "thinking" and if more people would do it, we'd all be better off.

I agree is hard to pin a denominator. that said 12,000 Americans have died in the past 30 days. 80,000 globally. And those numbers are climbing daily.

While most compare to the normal flu, keep in mind that the death rate for the common flu is much lower and it is also based on reported cases! Many get the common flu and it isn’t reported, not counted in reported cases.
We don’t see hospitals overwhelmed during flu season with patients.
Not traveling keeps the virus from spreading, when you go camping you travel, use common facilities, interact with others, Rangers, host and other campers.

I am tired of folks talking about the FLU. This is not the flu it is a lot meaner virus. PLUS we have vaccine for the flu. There are plenty (especially from TX) that do not get it and yes they die. You cannot fix stupid but you can do everything possible to try to stop this horrible disease. We have a slow minded government now and we are paying the price from them ignoring this. Now the head doctor is telling us that there are plenty of folks spreading this that do not even know they have it, isn't that another horrible thing.
If you want to camp there are plenty of RV parks that are not under any rules other than the 6 foot rule.

[bgum]

No one has the right to act or do things that will make someone else sick and possibly lead to their death. This is well established in law. We have laws against drinking and driving and people infecting others with Aids or TB knowingly. Just to name two.
The dollar has caused enough deaths. We should listen to our medical and scientific community. This to shall pass. Don't listen to those who have no expertise in public health. When it is over the "me" generation will roar back stronger than ever.

[rhagfo]

way2roll wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:

way2roll wrote:
According to the most recent data from the CDC, a month ago there were 279 cases in the US. Despite efforts to have people self quarantine and mandated closures, in the span of 30 days cases in the US have exploded to 375,000. With 12,000 deaths that's 3% mortality rate. Not 1% as some keep stating. That number continues to climb daily at the rate of 5-10% and not showing signs of slowing. Hospitals are overrun so much that decisions need to be made about who to save and who to let die. There are so many dead bodies that refrigerated trucks are needed at hospitals to store the corpses. This is not fear mongering, this is actually happening. While I agree that this is a wrecking ball through the economy, not just US but globally, are we to walk over dead bodies so we can eat at restaurants and shop? And it's not just TX, it's not just the US, this a global pandemic. Sure it's awful no matter which way you slice it, but I have seen a callous and morally bankrupt side of our fellow man that is rather disgusting. Anyone could be a carrier, and anyone could infect someone at risk and kill them. But selfishness and greed still prevail.

You say the number of cases have exploded, but consider why: there are now many, many more people being tested, but there are huge numbers of people that have it and have not been tested, and probably won't be tested because they show no symptoms.

Those numbers and percentages you're using are fallacious. Only based on speculation, not real data. No one knows how many people have, or have had, this virus. The only semi-hard data is from tests, so how accurate are those tests?

I know of two people that were showing all the symptoms, but were denied testing because they simply weren't sick enough. This is in one little town, how often does that happen everywhere else?

When I was sick with this thing back in December/January, no one had to tell me to "self quarantine", I knew enough not to expose other people to what I had. It's called "thinking" and if more people would do it, we'd all be better off.

I agree is hard to pin a denominator. that said 12,000 Americans have died in the past 30 days. 80,000 globally. And those numbers are climbing daily.

While most compare to the normal flu, keep in mind that the death rate for the common flu is much lower and it is also based on reported cases! Many get the common flu and it isn’t reported, not counted in reported cases.
We don’t see hospitals overwhelmed during flu season with patients.
Not traveling keeps the virus from spreading, when you go camping you travel, use common facilities, interact with others, Rangers, host and other campers.

[Walaby]

Part of the problem I see is peer pressure. All the governors started shutting things down, and the pressure for the ones who were either slower to react, or tried to put a tad amount of common sense into the equation felt the pressure and the criticism and followed like sheep. If even one person in authority steps outside the accepted "norm", they are quickly criticized to the point where they get back in line.

Whoever it was that posted we are only getting part of the equation.. the medical part, and we need the input from other parts, like the economists, is spot on. This is a multi-faceted problem, that requires experts across the spectrum. They will not agree, and in many areas, will be diametrically opposed to each other. But, the solution cannot, nor should it be, shut down until the economy is destroyed. The administrations idea about opening up areas that are less effected, at the right time, is exactly the right idea. The question is when, and to what degree.

Yes, it will be horrible for those who are directly affected by the virus. But this too, shall pass. As a nation, and a world, we need to get back on our collective economic feet as soon as practical.

Mike

[pjgoeman]

I don’t care what the people in Texas think as long as they stay in Texas. Unfortunately, they don’t love it enough to stay there.

[DallasSteve]

Speaking of Texas caves, I wanted to take my wife to Inner Space Caverns here in Georgetown. I just checked their website and they are closed until further notice. Oh well, I guess they saved my life. (cynical smile)

[wilber1]

That 1 or 2% fatality rate only holds true until a health care system is overwhelmed, after that it skyrockets. Spain and the UK over 10%. Italy over 12%. For every ten people that contract it in those countries, at least one isn't surviving.

[DallasSteve]

winnietrey wrote:

DallasSteve wrote:

winnietrey wrote:
I have been in the medical field for some 41 years. This is how I see it. Lets say knowledge is like a pond 6 ft deep. In my speciality I probably know it down to say 5 feet after 41 years. In areas out of my specialty I might know it down a foot or so. So for me to argue with someone who know it down to 6 feet is stupid.

See, the first few inches, everything seems so crystal clear. But the problem is, at two inches you don't know about the yeah buts, the maybes, the could be but, and the maybe nots.

When you don't know, what you don't know that is a huge problem. I say we go withwhat the boys at the CDC say, they are the ones that know the pond down 6 feet, not you or I

We've heard from the experts in this field and I believe them that the best way to stop the virus is to do the shutdown. But that doesn't mean that the shutdown is the best thing to do. Huh, you say? There may be side effects. You've heard of those.

What if shutting down the economy to this degree causes more deaths? Or what if shutting it down saves 100,000 lives but it costs 10,000 lives who would've lived otherwise. Do you have the right to trade one group of lives for another? Or as Captain Kirk said "Do the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?"

We've heard from the scientists, but they are not the only voice that matters. We haven't heard from the economists. And we haven't heard from the ethicists. We just ran headlong into this shutdown out of fear. Fear of a 1% chance of dying. Everybody dies. The thing is to die well.

Dallas Steve that quote was spock not kirk.

I think you have all the answers, and I encourage you to run for President

Winnietrey. You should check your source material when you correct me. I'm usually careful with what I post. In Star Trek II Spock made a different quote that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Kirk replied "Or the one". Then in Star Trek III Kirk said

"The needs of the one outweighed the needs of the many."

which is very close to what I posted from memory.

[winnietrey]

DallasSteve wrote:

winnietrey wrote:
I have been in the medical field for some 41 years. This is how I see it. Lets say knowledge is like a pond 6 ft deep. In my speciality I probably know it down to say 5 feet after 41 years. In areas out of my specialty I might know it down a foot or so. So for me to argue with someone who know it down to 6 feet is stupid.

See, the first few inches, everything seems so crystal clear. But the problem is, at two inches you don't know about the yeah buts, the maybes, the could be but, and the maybe nots.

When you don't know, what you don't know that is a huge problem. I say we go withwhat the boys at the CDC say, they are the ones that know the pond down 6 feet, not you or I

We've heard from the experts in this field and I believe them that the best way to stop the virus is to do the shutdown. But that doesn't mean that the shutdown is the best thing to do. Huh, you say? There may be side effects. You've heard of those.

What if shutting down the economy to this degree causes more deaths? Or what if shutting it down saves 100,000 lives but it costs 10,000 lives who would've lived otherwise. Do you have the right to trade one group of lives for another? Or as Captain Kirk said "Do the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?"

We've heard from the scientists, but they are not the only voice that matters. We haven't heard from the economists. And we haven't heard from the ethicists. We just ran headlong into this shutdown out of fear. Fear of a 1% chance of dying. Everybody dies. The thing is to die well.

Dallas Steve that quote was spock not kirk.

I think you have all the answers, and I encourage you to run for President

[wnjj]

For those who say wait until it hits us: Oregon had its first case in mid to late February, ahead of most other areas of the country. It’s not spreading like wildfire and wasn’t even before we shut everything down on March 23rd. Quite some time ago there were news headlines of a single student in each of 2 schools who was found to have it. Nothing more was ever reported again about those schools or any other students from them.

The hospitals around here are emptier than usual since all elective procedures have been canceled. It’s ironic that we can’t get preventative care for exactly the opposite reason as folks in NY. That alone will cause some future suffering and death. That scan or test that got pushed off may have been the early detection that would have saved your life. Every action taken, no mater how simple, obvious or noble it may seem will have repercussions that are difficult to quantify.

So while I can agree the consequences of this virus for some are quite severe, it sure doesn’t seem like it’s the super contagious, super villain it was first made out to be. Reasonable measures should be taken and what is needed in one community may not be needed in others.

I hope everyone comes out of this ok, even the name-callers. Peace and thanks for keeping it civil for the most part. I appreciate all of the opinions, stories and discussion.