โFeb-24-2017 09:59 AM
โFeb-27-2017 06:05 AM
troubledwaters wrote:bob_nestor wrote:I think you got it a little backwards. What if I was to tell you you could get a pickup today that would get 100 mpg. Would you buy it? Who wouldn't. But then, what if I told you that it cost $30,000.00 more (technology ain't cheap)? Well then you would pull out your calculator and determine that you could buy about 13,000 gallons of gas and at 16 mpg that's about 200,000 miles. Way longer than most people keep a truck. Now who would buy it? And a manufacturer ain't going to make it if they can't sell it and make a profit.
Just about any politician will tell you, and the voters, that engineers are too stupid to advance technology and business leaders too greedy to market that better mousetrap all by themselves. It takes the leadership, vision and foresight of a Politician to make the hard decisions that will advance technology and force the engineers and business leaders to implement them. The engineering challenges and potential market profits by themselves are just not enough to motive advancements, at least according to the Politician.
But when a politician comes along and says "Though shalt ..." well now all of a sudden you got buyers that have to buy it and pay for it whether they want to or not. Now the manufacturer can make it and make a profit doing it because you don't have a better choice.
I don't know about Canada but in the US the reason EV's are selling is because of the tax incentive. Take the tax incentive out of the picture then watch what happens. And guess who's paying for that nice little tax break? If they had to stand on their own - it would be a whole different ball game.
โFeb-27-2017 04:01 AM
bob_nestor wrote:I think you got it a little backwards. What if I was to tell you you could get a pickup today that would get 100 mpg. Would you buy it? Who wouldn't. But then, what if I told you that it cost $30,000.00 more (technology ain't cheap)? Well then you would pull out your calculator and determine that you could buy about 13,000 gallons of gas and at 16 mpg that's about 200,000 miles. Way longer than most people keep a truck. Now who would buy it? And a manufacturer ain't going to make it if they can't sell it and make a profit.
Just about any politician will tell you, and the voters, that engineers are too stupid to advance technology and business leaders too greedy to market that better mousetrap all by themselves. It takes the leadership, vision and foresight of a Politician to make the hard decisions that will advance technology and force the engineers and business leaders to implement them. The engineering challenges and potential market profits by themselves are just not enough to motive advancements, at least according to the Politician.
โFeb-26-2017 10:49 PM
John and Angela wrote:
I hope it works out as well. Electric vehicles are such a superior drive I would hate to think they have come this far to fail. I doubt they will though as the demand is definitely there.
Daimler's (DAIGn.DE) Mercedes-Benz and Smart brands will launch more than 10 electric cars by 2025, and zero-emission vehicles will make up between 15 percent and 25 percent of overall Mercedes sales by then, Chief Executive Dieter Zetsche said.
โFeb-26-2017 05:33 PM
CampbellDaycruiser wrote:
I would think that one of the new 200+ mile range EVs would make a good Toad and I can see having EVSE on site would be be something an RV resort or Park would want to do. If only to have something else to charge for!
โFeb-26-2017 05:15 PM
โFeb-26-2017 05:12 PM
John & Angela wrote:pnichols wrote:
IMHO, recreational vehicles of all types will never be much a part of the overall pollution problem ... there's not enough of them on a world scale. I hope they continue to get powered by natural gas or gasoline or diesel for many years to come so that we can continue to refuel everywhere with these high energy storage-per-unit sources.
To my knowledge it's the trucks, planes, ships, daily living personal vehicles, building heating/cooling equipment, eating of beef products, and deforestation that are the main concerns.
Very good point.
โFeb-25-2017 08:21 PM
pnichols wrote:
J & A,
Thanks much for your answers above to the questions and issues that I brought up.
I hope the EV battery future goes that smooth. But I am skeptical at this point ... only time will tell what the real environmental cost is of EV batteries when EVs are used all over the world by the multi-tens of millions.
I had read once that it was a very "messy" issue manufacturing the batteries for the Prius - but I think that those batteries were of a different technology.
โFeb-25-2017 07:27 PM
โFeb-25-2017 06:06 PM
Bumpyroad wrote:RoyF wrote:
This has a long way to go before coming real. Look at this follow-up article:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/news/a31123/german-transport-minister-calls-interna...
I note that "UTTER NONSENSE" is emphasized.
why don't they just pass a law that requires all vehicles to get 100 mpg?
bumpy
โFeb-25-2017 05:23 PM
pnichols wrote:
I'm curious about the behind-the-scenes facts surrounding the manufacture, disposal, and replacement of potloads of Li batteries when "everyone (in the world)" is eventually using them in their personal vehicles:
- How large is the world's supply of lithium natural resources?
Found this "The U.S. Geological Survey produced a reserves estimate of lithium in early 2015, concluding that the world has enough known reserves for about 365 years of current global production of about 37,000 tons per year"
- What countries are going to supply the above?
Found this Brazil. "Brazil produced the seventh most lithium in the world at 400 metric tons in 2014. ...
Portugal. Portugal produces the sixth most lithium at 570 metric tons as per 2014 reports. ...
Zimbabwe. ...
Argentina. ...
China. ...
Chile. ...
Australia.
They have also found deposits in half dozen other countries but there is no demand yet that the others can't fill.
- What are the geo-political implications of these various Li sources?
No idea
- Are we eventually talking about freight trains transporting lithium resource materials in several parts of the world ... like used to be/is the case with coal? (Petroleum and natural gas can be transported through pipes in a lot of areas - instead of via a string of freight cars.)
A tesla with the big battery uses about 14 Kg of lithium in the process
- What does the total infrastructure for disposal of expired Li batteries look like?
Not much in the way of disposal yet although there are a handful of companies developing remanufacturing processes that use the degraded batteries for other purposes. Home solar collection etc. If a battery loses 30 percent of its capacity it might not work well for the car anymore but could have another 10 to 20 years of repurposed life.
- Can expired Li batteries be recycled ... or must they be completely disposed of?
Recycling processes to date have been time and labor intensive but the next generations of packs is being designed to accommodate recycling better. i don't hink its an easy process from what I have seen
- Looking at the huge eye-sore piles of scrapped electronic products awaiting recycling or melting down or burying in certain countries (not the U.S.) ... is this how depleted Li batteries are going to wind up in certain unfortunate countries?
No idea. Depends on their goverments I suppose.
- What does the total infrastructure for replacement of the Li batteries in vehicles look like? Purchased on eBay, sold by Amazon, sold by Walmart, etc. and then taken to a service point for installation? Only dealers can source and install them? Shade tree mechanics and/or EV owners can install them? When they go so flat at one's home and one lives too far from a replacement facility, how does one get their EV to a facility for replacement (gas and diesel can be taken in a smal container to a vehicle needing refueling)? Are we talking about a whole new cottage industry of Li batteries replacement at the owner's place of residence?
I think its too hard to tell yet. There hasn't been a real cottage industry developing yet as the few batteries that have been replaced under warranties go back to the manufacturer for analysis etc. Wait ten years and we'll know more. Getting the car to a dealer?, I would suspect a tow truck. There are lots of nissan, mercedes, BMW, Chevy, and Kia dealers. Tesla sends a truck and brings it to a repair facility.
- As a very rough comparison ... what are the behind-the-scenes logistics surrounding how are the world's supply of expired dry cell batteries and lead acid vehicle batteries are disposed of?
No idea on dry cell. Pretty much 100 percent of lead is recycled. That is why there are very few lead mines in existence anymore. Lead is considered toxic if buried. Water table poisoning etc. Lithium batteries are not considered toxic materials although it would be a waste to just toss them out. Remember, the lithium doesn't get depleted or used up, just the anode cathode barriers get compromised.
I hope that the world's solutions to all of the above don't wind up polluting Mother Earth more than use of fossil fuel does.
โFeb-25-2017 04:19 PM
โFeb-25-2017 03:23 PM
John & Angela wrote:Hydro electric is great.But the libs here are forcing dams to be torn down to save fish.It will be a warm day in hell when we start building hydro electric dams again in the US. Same goes for nuclear.If the Germans can do it great.It won't happen here. I too replaced all my light bulbs with LED and am contemplating installing a solar domestic water system.So I'm not against renewables,I'm just being realistic in the US market. It may come some day but not in my lifetime.RGar974417 wrote:
Where do these people think electric comes from?Either fossil fuels, hydro electric or nuclear all which liberals despise.There is no way they will be bale to generate enough electricity from renewable sources by then. And what about over loading the electrical grid? Right now in the US our electric grid during really warm summers are in danger of collapsing.Now add hundreds of thousands of car chargers? These people are delerious.
Depending on the country I suppose. Some European countries as well as Canada produce significant amounts of energy from renewable sources. It depends on the district, province, region or state where you live. Some provinces produce more than 95 percent of their power from hydro alone. Norway is another example. The idea is to improve air quality in cities which I think is a good plan.
I don't know much about the US grid but to give an idea of what impact electric vehicles will have on a grid, the BC hydro website has some interesting info. On a provincial level if every personal passenger vehicle in BC were to be replaced by an electric vehicle the grid load would increase by 19 percent. The current extra capacity is 30 percent and growing. The average household with an Electric Vehicle uses the equivalent of an electric water heater on an annualized basis. As well most charging is done at night when power companies have excess capacity.
We are an all EV household. When we bought our town house we changed all the light bulbs to LED's, new thermostat, new fridge etc. looking at the previous owners bills and ours there has been very little if any monthly increase. Having said that we only do about 15000 Km per year between the two cars although we are closer to 18000 km this year.
Re the motorhome chassis. The Tesla X is the TESLA SUV. I would think that platform could be a possibility for a small class C. Maybe an integrated 12 KW diesel APU. Mercedes has a bunch of heavier platform E-vehicles coming to market this year. Possibly adaptable. I would think there would be a market. A low maintenance electric B class would be nice.
Interesting times.
โFeb-25-2017 03:05 PM
โFeb-25-2017 02:52 PM
pnichols wrote:
IMHO, recreational vehicles of all types will never be much a part of the overall pollution problem ... there's not enough of them on a world scale. I hope they continue to get powered by natural gas or gasoline or diesel for many years to come so that we can continue to refuel everywhere with these high energy storage-per-unit sources.
To my knowledge it's the trucks, planes, ships, daily living personal vehicles, building heating/cooling equipment, eating of beef products, and deforestation that are the main concerns.
โFeb-25-2017 02:48 PM
CampbellDaycruiser wrote:gotsmart wrote:John & Angela wrote:
It will be interesting to see how this affects availability of chassis for class C and B motorhomes. Still thirteen years away but right about then we will be downsizing to a small B class. Might be interesting.
This is the only English article I could find on the article. The German article is more encompassing. This follows Norways 2025 and Hollands 2026 plans for the same thing although the details are different.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/news/a31097/german-government-votes-to-ban-internal...
Big Woof. What's going to change? IMO, nothing. Why? Because if it doesn't ban petrol stations and ICE-based vehicles from being driven on the roads then it is toothless. Drivers and RVers, within and without Germany, will still drive their ICE vehicles in Germany and will need petrol stations. If the EU Commission does not agree with Germany then the only people affected will be German citizens buying new vehicles and Germany-based automobile MFGs. The Germany-based automobile MFGs will still make ICE vehicles - for export only.
If you ban the sale of new ICE chassis, in 10 years the number on the road will begin to drop off pretty quickly. How many people will want to buy a Class A or C that's 10 years used just for the nostalgia of having a smelly ICE? I'm sure the diehards will keep rebuilding their vehicles as long as they can but eventually the RV will fall apart, not the chassis, forcing them to buy new.