I'm a retired salesman

[sidney]

I really enjoy this forum and have found quite a bit of valuable information... and appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge and experience.

But I have never seen so many disparaging comments stereotyping all salesmen as clueless liars and cheats.

It seems when a new poster is asking for help regarding their 1st RV purchase the first advice they receive is "don't trust the salesman", "they are all liars", "the only thing they're concerned about is their commission".

What a bunch of cynics this crowd is!!! I feel sorry for those who have such little faith in humanity.

Granted, there are less than honest people in all walks of life and occupations... you may be one of them, hence your suspicious, distrusting attitudes.

The dealer and salesman I purchased our 2011 RAM from was outstanding.

The RV dealer I'm working with to purchase our 5th wheel is also outstanding.

I didn't sell RV's, TVs, or anything associated with camping. I sold life science research equipment and I'm damn glad many of you were not my customers.

[TyroneandGladys]

sidney wrote:
Wow... thanks for all the responses.

I'm sorry so many of you have had bad experiences with salesman.

Although, I believe some of you may have missed my point. I'm not defending all salesman. I'm against generically categorizing an entire profession.

If you have had a bad experience with a salesman I have no problem with you sharing your story. But when a member is looking for advice when buying a new RV and "don't trust the salesman" is the 1st advice offered without knowing anything about the dealership or the salesperson the buyer is working with... isn't that a tad prejudice?

When a new member posts a request for assistance buying an RV... instead of responding with "don't trust the salesman"... wouldn't it be more helpful to suggest the following:

Qualify your salesman:

How long has he worked at the dealership?
Does he own an RV, specifically the type you are considering, MH, 5th, TT?
What TV is he using?
Have you weighed your TV and RV?
Does he have any RV service experience?
How does he camp, where does he camp, how big his family, how far does he travel?

I'm sure there are several more questions you could ask to help determine the qualifications of a good RV sales person.

I don't go to the dentist to get my hair cut... and I'm not buying my RV from someone who hasn't owned one.

Thanks again for all the participation and good luck with your purchases.

And the dishonest salesman would answer your questions honestly?????????????????????? There is an old saying when you are talking with a salesman ask them if they have ever lied to a customer.
If they say no run and run far and fast if they say yes you have as a honest salesman as your going to finde

[sidney]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:

sidney wrote:
I really enjoy this forum and have found quite a bit of valuable information... and appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge and experience.

But I have never seen so many disparaging comments stereotyping all salesmen as clueless liars and cheats.

It seems when a new poster is asking for help regarding their 1st RV purchase the first advice they receive is "don't trust the salesman", "they are all liars", "the only thing they're concerned about is their commission".

What a bunch of cynics this crowd is!!! I feel sorry for those who have such little faith in humanity.

Granted, there are less than honest people in all walks of life and occupations... you may be one of them, hence your suspicious, distrusting attitudes.

The dealer and salesman I purchased our 2011 RAM from was outstanding.

The RV dealer I'm working with to purchase our 5th wheel is also outstanding.

I didn't sell RV's, TVs, or anything associated with camping. I sold life science research equipment and I'm damn glad many of you were not my customers.

~

You might find this shocking, but....
The negative opinions you see/read are usually well deserved!.:S

Whether they should be applied to you or not - "we" will never know.

More than willing to give you the benefit of the doubt (as well as the sales folks you like) - but unfortunately (especially with RV salespeople) finding a good, knowledgeable, *honest* salesperson is like finding a certain grain of sand on the beach!.:R

Be happy to back that statement up - with names of dealerships (and first-hand experiences) for cars/truck and RV dealerships that have earned their negative reputation - - including documented legal actions.
(CA is full of 'em - and certainly not an isolated location, nor anything "new"!)

A bit off topic, but reminds me of the ongoing investigation of business practices (being investigated by the FBI) of Flying J.

The VP explains how to deal with the customers, LOL!

~

I believe you may have missed my point.

see my last Post: 05/06/13 05:03pm

[TyroneandGladys]

Roundtwo-40 wrote:
We bought our trailer and had a great salesman, the finance lady however turned into the rudest "lady" (i'm being nice) when we declined the extended warranty. I made it a point to go back and tell our salesman of her less than stellar people skills and again addressed it in our customer service questionaire we filled out later. Every time I recommend that dealership to others I tell them that story and with social media and other means of communication bad opinions fly faster than good ones.

The finance people in dealerships make more profit for the dealership than any other person and are also the highest paid.

[ol_Bombero-JC]

sidney wrote:
I really enjoy this forum and have found quite a bit of valuable information... and appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge and experience.

But I have never seen so many disparaging comments stereotyping all salesmen as clueless liars and cheats.

It seems when a new poster is asking for help regarding their 1st RV purchase the first advice they receive is "don't trust the salesman", "they are all liars", "the only thing they're concerned about is their commission".

What a bunch of cynics this crowd is!!! I feel sorry for those who have such little faith in humanity.

Granted, there are less than honest people in all walks of life and occupations... you may be one of them, hence your suspicious, distrusting attitudes.

The dealer and salesman I purchased our 2011 RAM from was outstanding.

The RV dealer I'm working with to purchase our 5th wheel is also outstanding.

I didn't sell RV's, TVs, or anything associated with camping. I sold life science research equipment and I'm damn glad many of you were not my customers.

~

You might find this shocking, but....
The negative opinions you see/read are usually well deserved!.:S

Whether they should be applied to you or not - "we" will never know.

More than willing to give you the benefit of the doubt (as well as the sales folks you like) - but unfortunately (especially with RV salespeople) finding a good, knowledgeable, *honest* salesperson is like finding a certain grain of sand on the beach!.:R

Be happy to back that statement up - with names of dealerships (and first-hand experiences) for cars/truck and RV dealerships that have earned their negative reputation - - including documented legal actions.
(CA is full of 'em - and certainly not an isolated location, nor anything "new"!)

A bit off topic, but reminds me of the ongoing investigation of business practices (being investigated by the FBI) of Flying J.

The VP explains how to deal with the customers, LOL!

~

[Cummins12V98]

OP in your profession you delat with professionals. If you were a flake you would not have lasted long!

You can be a car salesman and be a flake and be the top seller, I know one. The #2 guy is a straight shooter been there just as long as #1 but shady sells more!

[sidney]

Wow... thanks for all the responses.

I'm sorry so many of you have had bad experiences with salesman.

Although, I believe some of you may have missed my point. I'm not defending all salesman. I'm against generically categorizing an entire profession.

If you have had a bad experience with a salesman I have no problem with you sharing your story. But when a member is looking for advice when buying a new RV and "don't trust the salesman" is the 1st advice offered without knowing anything about the dealership or the salesperson the buyer is working with... isn't that a tad prejudice?

When a new member posts a request for assistance buying an RV... instead of responding with "don't trust the salesman"... wouldn't it be more helpful to suggest the following:

Qualify your salesman:

How long has he worked at the dealership?
Does he own an RV, specifically the type you are considering, MH, 5th, TT?
What TV is he using?
Have you weighed your TV and RV?
Does he have any RV service experience?
How does he camp, where does he camp, how big his family, how far does he travel?

I'm sure there are several more questions you could ask to help determine the qualifications of a good RV sales person.

I don't go to the dentist to get my hair cut... and I'm not buying my RV from someone who hasn't owned one.

Thanks again for all the participation and good luck with your purchases.

[monkey44]

JALLEN4 Quote: "Anybody who thinks the "victim" can never be the dealer obviously has never been involved in the retail vehicle business. I could write an entertaining book on just that scenario."

Okay, you the dealer, me the buyer(and a journalist as well), both in Florida ... lets sit down and tell one another the craziest stories and call it - "Truthful but Entertaining Lies on an RV lot" -- HA, we'll never have to work again. 🙂 🙂 🙂

What you said is probably true enough - but one main difference here, when a 'trade' comes in, you have both the opportunity and the experts on hand to at least verify the bulk of what a customer might tell you. Generally a mechanic in your shops can tell pretty quickly whether you should take a more careful look before you value that trade, regardless of what the trade owner may say about it.

But, a customer usually is not a mechanic and can't bring staff with him - so arrives unarmed into that situation. And, it's unlikely that even a PDI will allow a prospective buyer to remove the wheels, check brakes, dismantle the engine components, and check all operating parts and verify any but the most obvious faults.

Remember, the dealer and salesmen are very skilled at manipulating the conversation - and again, most people (or course, a few lie to you) but most people probably are not ... and even if the salesman doesn't exactly "lie", he's trained in the omission game as well, particularly in the 'used car' field.

The unfortunate thing about this entire situation - that is, buying a vehicle - no one can ever know for certain if the other party is truthful or not, and that is a sad thing in our sales world today. And, I think that is true more in the Auto and RV sales field, probably more than 'sales fields' in general - well, the other would be Real Estate ... oppps, don't open that door. But because the 'product price' in both those fields is so flexible, it's creates conflict and opportunity that don't exist in other fields.

[Jloucks]

Ooh ooh, philosophy discussion! I want in!

The big fallacy in your logic is you are assuming most people are good.

This is not the case.

Most people are either neutral or bad. 'fair' does NOT equal good. It means equal or neutral. Not good! Good is the exception.

Neutral does not equal bad/evil. It is ok to be neutral. In most cases.

And no, just smiling at somebody or buying your own kids a nice present doesn't sway the pendulum that much.

I mean, just as devils advocate, look at all of us! Spending discretionary money on RV's, probably more than we spend on charity. That swings the pendulum the bad way. How do you/we make the world a better place?

Does making no difference at all, or only to yourself, make you good?

My point being, we are all hypocrites, and the challenge is to see who is the most full of it.

Let's take salesmen. Hmm,, no,,bad example,, lets take COMMISSIONED salesmen with negotiated pricing that impacts commission and examine the dynamics.

By default, the salesmen want you to buy a product and in doing so want to take a portion of the profit for their time. Necessarily so. Alas, this 'profit' comes straight out of the pocket of the buyer. Now this is a big 'catch 22' as far as good-vs-evil goes because you now have two people (buyer and seller) essentially arguing over who is taking who's money. You end up in a scenario where everybody involved is bad or neutral. The only exception is if you give up your complete allotment of money. Who want's to do that? You can't eat dust right?

But there you have it in an nutshell. More often than not the salesman is viewed as 'the bad guy' because he can benefit from your NOT benefiting. It is in his best interest to squeeze every dime out of you he can. It is in the buyers best interest to squeeze back. The buyer however doesn't have leverage as far as deceit is concerned. Only the seller has that. Many use it, hence the reputation.

The truth is, in most scenario's where deceit is not a factor (because nobody is lying and everybody is vying for the others money), both the buyer AND the seller are,,, well,,, neutral or bad. Remember, 'fair' doesn't equal 'good', it equals 'neutral'.

Alas, where there is money involved, deceit very often follows.

Is there any difference in trading in an old rig and not disclosing issues and selling a new rig and not disclosing issues? No, there is not.

So, pop quiz time.

1) You are are trading in a rig. There is a problem that the dealer will not be able to detect until long after the trade is final. Keeping quiet will save you $3,000. Do you
a) Tell the dealer and take a $3,000 hit and pay full retail on the new rig.
b) Tell the dealer and take a $3,000 hit and still negotiate price, some of which hits the salesman's commission.
c) Keep it to yourself, after all, the dealer will make it up in profits with the rig you are buying on the trade in.
d) Keep it to yourself, caveat emptor, buyer beware.

2) You are a salesman selling a rig. You know that is has a faulty widget that will go out immediately after the warranty expires. Repairing it now will cost $3,000 because the manufacturer blaw blaw whatever. Do you
a) Tell the customer and take a $3,000 hit, and send all of your commission to the customer.
b) Tell the customer and take a $3,000 hit, only losing a portion of commission to customer.
c) Keep it to yourself, after all, the warranty should cover it, it is not your fault the manufacturer likes to swindle customers. Not your problem.
d) Keep it to yourself, caveat emptor, buyer beware.

If you answered 'A' to both of the above, you are a good person.
If you answered 'B' to both of the above, you are a neutral person.
If you answered 'C' or 'D to any of the above, you are a bad person.

It is easier to be a bad or neutral person if you are a salesman because you have deceit leverage on your side (the rig). ...unless of course there is a trade in. Then everybody is likely not so good.

In conclusion, while we like to badmouth the salesmen, most of which are neutral or bad, the truth is the same percentage of us/customers are also neutral or bad.

Buncha pots calling the kettles black.

Understanding this is the first step in moving closer to truly 'good'.

...a goal that is impossible to fully achieve.

If you say you are there, the opposite is in fact the case.

[wintersun]

My problem with sales people in general is that seldom will they say " I do not know" and instead will provide inaccurate information. Regardless of the reasons this happens all the time.

The other aspect which is human behavior and most people's morality shifts based on the dollar value involved. You see it with the family squabbles as heirs pick over the bones of a deceased relative's estate and you see it in business and in politics. Some professions put their practitioners more at risk as the dollars at stake are higher.

A sales clerk at Home Depot can provide poor information and the customer is seldom going to risk life or limb or much money as a result. The salesperson at the car or RV dealer never is very knowledgeable about the products they are selling. I know more than they do about the vehicle after reading the manufacturer's brochure.

The salespeople I have known were expert at selling and not at all expert about what it was they were selling whether it was software, computers, bulk commodity products, vehicles, or RV's. They knew how to read people and how to pitch a product and how to overcome objections and set aside concerns. That is very different from knowing a product's attributes and deficiencies and then communicating that information to potential customers.

Surprised that a retired salesperson would have such thin skin. I would expect anyone who has been successful in sales to have learned to shrug off rejection or criticism as it "goes with the territory". Hard for me to invision a whiner being successful in anything.

[qtla9111]

Nothing against sales people, we can't live without them. That said, I have never had a good experience with an rv salesman. In some cases, the dealer handles too much product and the saleman can't learn it all. OTH, I have rarely walked into an rv dealership to find all the salesmen busy at the same time, in fact never (and I visit dealerships all the time when I am in the U.S.).

So if I were a salesman, instead of moving my gob, I might consider sitting in a new rv with manual in hand and do some reading so that when a customer comes in the salesperson doesn't have to invent answers.

There is nothing more embarrassing than to hear something out of a salesman's mouth that is pure bull hockey, and I know the answer. In fact, in the last few years I have gotten smarter and at the beginning of the conversation I ask some very basic questions. If it looks like he is pulling my leg and doesn't know the product I'll walk.

And if you think this isn't true, I have a video tape of the salesman who attempted to do my PDI on a Trailmanor we bought in 2000. He sold it to me and told me from the beginning "oh it is so easy to open and setup, closing it is even easier. It's truly a piece of engineering". He was right, and his words were very true. However, when I arrived for the PDI they didn't have time to open it. I stood back and watched. I thought he was going to break the damn thing. I finally told him to "stand back" and I'd show him how to do it. What a disappointment. Afterall, all I did was watch a five minute video a couple of times. Same video still appears on Youtube.

[Roundtwo-40]

We bought our trailer and had a great salesman, the finance lady however turned into the rudest "lady" (i'm being nice) when we declined the extended warranty. I made it a point to go back and tell our salesman of her less than stellar people skills and again addressed it in our customer service questionaire we filled out later. Every time I recommend that dealership to others I tell them that story and with social media and other means of communication bad opinions fly faster than good ones.

[Ric_Flair]

sidney wrote:

... I have never seen so many disparaging comments stereotyping all salesmen as clueless liars and cheats...

A man walked into a tavern and sat next to a very attractive, smartly
dressed woman perched on a bar stool.
"Hi there, Good Looking. How's it going?" he asked.
The woman looked him straight in the eye and said, "Listen, I'll screw
anybody, anytime, anywhere, your place, my place, it doesn't matter. I've
been doing it ever since I got out of school, and I just love it!"
"No kidding?," said the man, "I'm a salesman too! What dealership are you with?"

[JALLEN4]

monkey44 wrote:
JALLEN4: Good answer, from a knowledgeable source. But it's weakness is in the fact that a dealer will never do those calculations (arrive at a fair price) and then share that price with the buyer - will never just tell the buyer this is my price, take it or leave it. They keep trying to get the buyer up over that price until the sale closes or fails.

And I'll never believe for one second when a salesman shows me the 'dealers invoice' and says I'll sell it for $100, or $250 over invoice that the 'invoice price' he shows me is accurate for dealers cost - which is the implication. No auto dealer in the world can stay in business making a $100, or $250 on a sale, and no salesman can make a living if his commission comes out of that. So, those sales gimmicks make no sense - but a salesman will make that very statement.

But I'm wondering where in your sales model it says it's okay for you to maximize your return on each sale by misrepresenting the vehicle you sell?

Not saying you did it, I'm saying it happens on auto and RV lots more than anyone would like to admit. I'm not going to run down my experiences, it would take too long and prove nothing, some good, some bad. But I can tell you that some of the salesman I've come across in my vehicle buying life have no qualms about telling direct lies, and lies by omission in order to make a sale. And it gives a bad name to every vehicle sales force anywhere, no matter the ethics of a specific dealer.

The very reasons you state here make it probable that a price is always going to set for the maximum profit for a dealer every time.

The problems we see is the expectation somewhere in our brains that a salesman should not lie and a customer should not lie. But everyone seems to think it's okay for both to lie in vehicle sales - for some reason, even the most moral and ethical individuals in all other areas of life believe it does not apply in the business of vehicle sales.

I believe it began when used car dealers took in car and 'retrofit' each one it could and sell it with the comfort of some kind of warranty -- or simply salvaged any car it couldn't refit.

Nowadays, a dealer takes in a vehicle and does nothing to it unless a buyer, requests it after an inspection. So the "as is" and "buyer beware" traditions emerged. And that model always takes advantage of the buyer, never the seller. Either the buyer gets a good vehicle, or he doesn't - that's the only two options. The dealer always gets his price, so the only person that can ever lose is the buyer.

Unfortunately, the problems with the sales model in vehicles allows a buyer to become a victim. And, that's why the vehicle sales force always gets a bad name, because the buyer can never victimize the seller, but the seller can and often does victimize the buyer.

So, that fact makes every buyer afraid s/he will be that victim ... and the fact is, too many auto salesmen do lie, or omit - and that hurts all the ones that don't.

Reputation is everything in vehicle sales - often the only thing that makes a dealer successful.

Anybody who thinks the "victim" can never be the dealer obviously has never been involved in the retail vehicle business. I could write an entertaining book on just that scenario.

People lie! Neither salesmen nor customers have a monopoly on that concept. I have said for years though that I heard more lies in an average day than all my people told in a month.

If you really want to see some fancy dealings, sit in and watch two amateurs conduct a private sale. Few regulations, no warranty, usually no contract, and no way to hold either accountable!

[monkey44]

JALLEN4: Good answer, from a knowledgeable source. But it's weakness is in the fact that a dealer will never do those calculations (arrive at a fair price) and then share that price with the buyer - will never just tell the buyer this is my price, take it or leave it. They keep trying to get the buyer up over that price until the sale closes or fails.

And I'll never believe for one second when a salesman shows me the 'dealers invoice' and says I'll sell it for $100, or $250 over invoice that the 'invoice price' he shows me is accurate for dealers cost - which is the implication. No auto dealer in the world can stay in business making a $100, or $250 on a sale, and no salesman can make a living if his commission comes out of that. So, those sales gimmicks make no sense - but a salesman will make that very statement.

But I'm wondering where in your sales model it says it's okay for you to maximize your return on each sale by misrepresenting the vehicle you sell?

Not saying you did it, I'm saying it happens on auto and RV lots more than anyone would like to admit. I'm not going to run down my experiences, it would take too long and prove nothing, some good, some bad. But I can tell you that some of the salesman I've come across in my vehicle buying life have no qualms about telling direct lies, and lies by omission in order to make a sale. And it gives a bad name to every vehicle sales force anywhere, no matter the ethics of a specific dealer.

The very reasons you state here make it probable that a price is always going to set for the maximum profit for a dealer every time.

The problems we see is the expectation somewhere in our brains that a salesman should not lie and a customer should not lie. But everyone seems to think it's okay for both to lie in vehicle sales - for some reason, even the most moral and ethical individuals in all other areas of life believe it does not apply in the business of vehicle sales.

I believe it began when used car dealers took in car and 'retrofit' each one it could and sell it with the comfort of some kind of warranty -- or simply salvaged any car it couldn't refit.

Nowadays, a dealer takes in a vehicle and does nothing to it unless a buyer, requests it after an inspection. So the "as is" and "buyer beware" traditions emerged. And that model always takes advantage of the buyer, never the seller. Either the buyer gets a good vehicle, or he doesn't - that's the only two options. The dealer always gets his price, so the only person that can ever lose is the buyer.

Unfortunately, the problems with the sales model in vehicles allows a buyer to become a victim. And, that's why the vehicle sales force always gets a bad name, because the buyer can never victimize the seller, but the seller can and often does victimize the buyer.

So, that fact makes every buyer afraid s/he will be that victim ... and the fact is, too many auto salesmen do lie, or omit - and that hurts all the ones that don't.

Reputation is everything in vehicle sales - often the only thing that makes a dealer successful.

[ddschuman]

monkey44 wrote:
"From a lay-person's perspective, all of that is logical. From a Dealer's perspective it makes very little sense and has very little to do with why transaction prices are negotiated and not constant."

The interesting part is, a dealer knows exactly what price they can sell for at the minute a transaction begins. But they won't share that number, ever.

Instead of honesty, we have both sides of a transaction inspecting and investigating the other side because as a society, we have come to expect everyone is a cheat.

This is why I loved working for the dealership I did all those years ago. They did not haggle at all. They put a price on the unit as soon as it showed up on the lot. The price was always $500 over dealer invoice (this is probably not realistic today with inflation). Of course they got other dealer incentives so the $500 was not all they made on a sale if the vehicle moved quickly. There was NO negotiating room which upset some people but most didn't mind. Especially when he would get out the invoice book and show the customer. Vehicles didn't stay on his lot very long when I worked there. People came from all over to purchase. The down side was that he also did not keep very many used vehicles on his lot. If the vehicle didn't sale in 2 weeks, it went to wholesaler. This meant that he did not normally give even trade-in value for your trade. He advised people of his rule when they came in and suggested to most to try and sell it out right if they could or bring a buyer with them if they wanted to use as trade. Again, this was not favorable to some. I know the dealership is still in business but it is now 3rd generation running it so I am not certain if they still operate the same but they sure sold a lot by practicing this approach back then. I wish more dealerships or salespeople in general practiced this approach today. I personally don't like to haggle (I do it) although I know some prefer it. I just want an honest deal for a fair price.