need help choosing the best solution to solve sway issue

[jbluetooth]

Hello everyone. I'm a motorcycle racer who's been towing bikes to the track for a long time, but I consider myself a beginner when it comes to towing a big trailer. I upgraded from a small box trailer to a 22ft toy hauler a year ago and it came with a WD hitch and sway bar. The WD hitch is an old Reese system with 750lb trunnion bars that slide on friction pads, and there's also a small friction sway bar that attaches on the small ball on the side of the hitch. I have a 2014 Tundra with the smaller 4.7 V8. The trailer is long for a bumper tow and has a lot of weight on the hitch, plus occasionally I have another bike in the back of my truck (though most of that weight is in front of the axle). I've been towing this for awhile now learning and doing what I can. At first, the handling was terrible. I played around with weight loading in the trailer a bit, and finally added airbags to the truck, then readjusted the weight distribution hitch to level out the truck and add some weight to the front wheels. This helped a lot, but at this time, I noticed that the spring bars were only 750 lb rated. I weight the truck and trailer loaded and I would guess that on average I have 1200-1500 lbs on the hitch, plus sometimes a bike in the back of the truck, but sometimes the hitch weight is probably higher than 1500 if I can't dump the Grey tank and it's full. My hitch weight could be as high as 2000 lbs.

After adding the airbags and readjusting, the truck pulls much better and straighter, but still sways really bad if I pass a semi, even at 55-65 mph. I want to fix this, hopefully without getting a new truck. I'm assuming the really undersized spring bars are hurting the effectiveness of this system, especially with a Tundra which is pretty light in the front compared to a big diesel. However, I'm not sure how big of spring bars I can get for this setup, I'm working on that. I've found 1200 lb, and maybe 1500 lb. So I guess my question is do you think 1200-1500 lb spring bars with this setup will correct the issue? Or should I look at a different distribution system that goes higher in weight, like the Reese Dual Cam 1700, or even something else? It doesn't seem like there are a lot of systems designed to handle this kind of tongue weight.

Or is there something else entirely that I'm missing?

Any input is appreciated. Thank you for your time!
Jesse

[troubledwaters]

mkirsch wrote:
If you had sway, you'd be dead now, or at least standing on the side of the road looking at your jackknifed rig laying on its side in the ditch...

So people that have had sway are either dead, jackknifed, or with their rig on its side. I must be a god then (or maybe I've been dead for 15 years and didn't realize it).

[mkirsch]

If you had sway, you'd be dead now, or at least standing on the side of the road looking at your jackknifed rig laying on its side in the ditch.

What you're experiencing is the natural push-pull sensation that the air displaced by large vehicles causes when it comes in contact with your trailer. Your truck does not have enough "arse" to control the trailer when this happens, so the trailer moves the truck around.

Heavier spring bars are a good idea from a weight distribution perspective, but they won't change the push-pull sensation. The only thing that will change this is stiffening the horizontal plane of the joint between the truck and the trailer. Weight bars only affect the vertical plane.

Stiffening this joint will make the truck and trailer act more as one unit, like a large straight box truck, instead of a little truck towing a big trailer.

How do you do this? Sway control. Not the cheesy friction bar(s) you have now, but real integrated sway control like an Equal-I-Zer brand, or even so far as a Hensley or Propride. If you don't want to get a suitable truck, this is what you need to do.

It's called "sway control" but what it does is stiffen the hitch joint in the horizontal plane.

[myredracer]

Handye9 has an excellent post! A few more things I can think of. Depending on age of TV, check for excess play in front end & steering. Also check for excess play in receiver/hitch (Reese for ex. has shims available). Shocks on the trailer can help and depending on age again, the TV may benefit from new shocks, esp. some good HD ones.

As Barney says, tires are another important factor. Going up a load range will give you a slightly wider tire and higher pressure rating, both of which will help stability, sway & handling. The higher load capacity rating really helps to minimize the risk of a premature failure too. Keep your ST tires inflated to sidewall max. psi and check them routinely (cold).

[BarneyS]

Dave H M wrote:
That was a great link Barney. Super upgrade on the suspension.

But did I notice that where the rubber meets the road it was on Marathon tires? :h

Those Marathons were on Les Adams trailer who was the OP of that thread. I posted my addition to it on page 4 and had Maxxis tires at the time.

Marathons were the tires that came on our trailer new and lasted very well with never a problem. I forget where they were made but it was not one of the Asian countries. I have had 4 sets of Marathons previous to those also with no problems. I have been running Maxxis for the past 10 years or so with no problems. See this post that I made in 2009.

I think the reason I do not have problems with my tires is because I am not overloading them, always run them at max sidewall pressure, and replace them at around 6 years.

Our present and previous trailers came stock with LR "C" tires. I upgraded to LR "D" for quite a few years and the last set I put on were LR "E". I have also upgraded my present trailer with higher rated wheels and tires. The trailer came stock with shocks so the ride is quite smooth and we have never had any problem with things breaking or moving around even though the tires are at max sidewall pressure.
Barney

[Dave_H_M]

That was a great link Barney. Super upgrade on the suspension.

But did I notice that where the rubber meets the road it was on Marathon tires? :h

[k9jadon]

Ok so a 1200 lb hitch translates to either 8000lbs or 12000 pound trailer 15% or 10% respectively. Is a 22ft toy hauler 8000? Maybe, but if it 12000lbs or more I'd bet that there is some serious overloading on the trailer itself. If the tongue weight is really as much as 2000 lbs that would mean that the trailer weighs either 20,000 lbs(10%) or 13,000 lbs(15%) Something is seriously overloaded in this scenario. My question is this, what are the actual ratings of your trailer(GVWR)? Then what is the actual weight of the trailer at the scales when fully loaded? Now move all but the tongue jack off of the scale and weigh it, by disconnecting the T.V. from the trailer with the tongue jack on the scale. This is how you can really determine what is happening no guessing, not worth the risk. Then you can start trying to fix the sway problem. As was stated before too much tongue weight can also increase sway because you are removing to much weight off of the front axle. A bigger truck will not always eliminate sway, but a properly balanced T.V. and Trailer can reduce it to nearly nothing. Maybe a Hensley Arrow will help. Just my two cents.

[jbluetooth]

Thanks for the helpful response. I posted this on another forum also and have been learning and working through some things. Along with noticing that the spring bars are a bit light for this rig, I also noticed that when I level the truck with the air bags, the trailer nose tips up slightly. There's a lower adjustment on the ball to drop that down so I'll do that also. I've also ordered the 1200 lb bars for this hitch. As a test, I did move my load as far back as possible (and emptied the truck) and took it back over to the scales. It dropped my weight on the truck from almost 2000 lbs to about 1000 lbs, and stabilized the truck during accelerating and braking, but made the sway worse. Which makes sense, I was doing some reading and as some of you pointed out, loading tongue heavier will reduce sway, to the point that it's not overloading something else and causing another problem. So I'm hoping to find a happy medium with the stiffer bars, a little less weight on the truck, around 1200 lbs, and by lowering the front of the trailer so it's level or slightly down. Yes, I realize I'm pretty maxed out on this truck, which is why I'm trying to do everything correct to maximize stability and safety.
I do have E rated tires on the truck and trailer and run them at 80 psi on the rear of the truck and trailer and 65 on the front of the truck.

Thanks for your help. I'll try this out, then maybe a sway bar for the truck, while I save for a bigger truck.

*edit* just ordered the rear sway bar too.

Thanks!
Jesse

handye9 wrote:
Here's a link to a calculator that might help.

There are a number of things that can cause trailer sway, main causes listed first:

Overloading, insufficient weight distribution, insufficient tongue weight percentage, towing trailer nose up, unbalanced tire pressures, tow vehicle tire sidewall flexing, mechanical (bearings, axles, struts, springs, etc) failures. If you have a sway issue, it's possible your cause is anywhere in between just one item (listed above) to a combination of all of them. Getting accurate weights and ratings on truck (curb weight, GVWR, GCVWR, and tow capacity), trailer (GVWR, actual gross weight, actual tongue weights) and hitch equipment (weight rating) is a good start. You already know, tongue weight is not a constant number, so you need to plan on it being it's heaviest.

I've heard toy haulers run heavy on the tongue (average travel trailer runs about 12 - 13 percent) to compensate for toys in the garage. So, I used 15 percent tongue weight to calculate your approximate gross weight and based on 1500 lb tongue weight I came up with 10,000 lb loaded trailer weight. That's a lot of trailer for a Tundra with 4.7 V8. Even if your Tundra's advertised max tow weight rating were 10,000 lbs, once you add a passenger or cargo (like a bike in the truck bed), it no longer has 10,000 lb tow capacity.

There are band-aids that might help with comfort, but, there is nothing you can do to increase your tow rating.

As far as moving things around in the trailer, if you get your tongue weight percentage too low, it will increase your sway issues.

Check your truck tires for a good PSI (E rated LT tires should be good for about 80 PSI). If your running lower tire pressure, you could have a little bit of sidewall flexing. Make sure they are equal in pressure. Check trailer tires for equal PSI readings

If the truck doesn't have a sway bar, maybe adding one would help with truck body twisting.

It's possible your WDH is not restoring enough weight (it's primary function) to your front axles. If your front axle has lost too much weight, you loose some steering control and create more of pivot point at the hitch. One of the main causes of trailer sway. BlueOx Sway Pro has WDH models rated for 1500 and 2000 lbs.

I too, think you may be pushing the limits on your Tundra.

[troubledwaters]

jbluetooth wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
First, yes, move some weight rear-ward and try that. Can you not put the other bike from the truck bed into the TH? That would ease up on the truck rear axle weight significantly. Typically toy haulers are designed nose heavy to offset the "toy" weight in back.
What are you defining as sway? Some wiggling back n forth when changing lanes or correcting steering, OR uncontrollable sway that doesn't go away until you apply trailer brakes or slow back down to below a certain speed?
If you have E tires, airbags and some weight distribution, IMO the truck should handle it ok (aside from possibly being over hitch load ratings).

Thanks for the input. Its funny the things you realize when you write it down hehe. I've reloaded the trailer a bit and will drive back over to the scales to see if I'm better balanced with a lower hitch load. Maybe that's all I needed to do now that the hitch is setup better and I have the airbags. In this situation I have my standard load and the extra bike is something non-standard, which is why it ends up in the truck bed. usually I won't have it.

As for the sway, the truck tows fine in a straight line. But when I pass a semi, I get pulled into it bad enough that it's scary and I see the semi swerve a little out of the way in my rear mirror. Same thing if the wind blows, it just pushes me around more than I would like.

So you want to fix a bad sway issue by adding more weight behind the axles. Man I want to be around when you test out that theory at highway speed, should be a great UTube video. Here's what happens when you move weight off the tongue and put it behind the axles. Clicky

[mike-s]

handye9 wrote:
I've heard toy haulers run heavy on the tongue (average travel trailer runs about 12 - 13 percent) to compensate for toys in the garage.

Toy haulers are built much like boat trailers, for the same reason. The axles are further back than on a regular camper. That gives a relatively high unloaded tongue weight (most of the weight is in front of the axles). It's also because most of the added load is expected to be behind the axles (like the weight of the engine is at the back of a motor boat), which reduces tongue weight. Because of that, just like with boat trailers, the conventional tongue weight percentage rules may not apply.

I'd load everything in the back of the trailer and not in the TV to reduce the load on the TV suspension.

[handye9]

Here's a link to a calculator that might help.

There are a number of things that can cause trailer sway, main causes listed first:

Overloading, insufficient weight distribution, insufficient tongue weight percentage, towing trailer nose up, unbalanced tire pressures, tow vehicle tire sidewall flexing, mechanical (bearings, axles, struts, springs, etc) failures. If you have a sway issue, it's possible your cause is anywhere in between just one item (listed above) to a combination of all of them. Getting accurate weights and ratings on truck (curb weight, GVWR, GCVWR, and tow capacity), trailer (GVWR, actual gross weight, actual tongue weights) and hitch equipment (weight rating) is a good start. You already know, tongue weight is not a constant number, so you need to plan on it being it's heaviest.

I've heard toy haulers run heavy on the tongue (average travel trailer runs about 12 - 13 percent) to compensate for toys in the garage. So, I used 15 percent tongue weight to calculate your approximate gross weight and based on 1500 lb tongue weight I came up with 10,000 lb loaded trailer weight. That's a lot of trailer for a Tundra with 4.7 V8. Even if your Tundra's advertised max tow weight rating were 10,000 lbs, once you add a passenger or cargo (like a bike in the truck bed), it no longer has 10,000 lb tow capacity.

There are band-aids that might help with comfort, but, there is nothing you can do to increase your tow rating.

As far as moving things around in the trailer, if you get your tongue weight percentage too low, it will increase your sway issues.

Check your truck tires for a good PSI (E rated LT tires should be good for about 80 PSI). If your running lower tire pressure, you could have a little bit of sidewall flexing. Make sure they are equal in pressure. Check trailer tires for equal PSI readings

If the truck doesn't have a sway bar, maybe adding one would help with truck body twisting.

It's possible your WDH is not restoring enough weight (it's primary function) to your front axles. If your front axle has lost too much weight, you loose some steering control and create more of pivot point at the hitch. One of the main causes of trailer sway. BlueOx Sway Pro has WDH models rated for 1500 and 2000 lbs.

I too, think you may be pushing the limits on your Tundra.

[jbluetooth]

BarneyS wrote:
See this link to see pictures of the worn bushings and also what 'wet bolts" are in relation to the trailers suspension.
Barney

Thank you!!!

[BarneyS]

See this link to see pictures of the worn bushings and also what 'wet bolts" are in relation to the trailers suspension.
Barney

[Lynnmor]

jbluetooth wrote:

WNYBob wrote:
You don't mention the age of the trailer. Worn bushings can make sway worse..

What bushings are you referring to? The trailer is a 2008 but was barely used when I got it (60 hours on the generator). I greased all the wheel bearings and replaced the tires with Maxxis E rated before I used it. Let me know and I'll check out the bushings.
thanks!

I don't think that worn bushings have a big effect on sway because they are thin and add little slop when worn. The bushings are in the leaf spring ends, if you have that type of suspension. That said, you most likely have the nylon bushings and they are rapidly wearing against rusted parts after ten years. If you expect to use this trailer quite a bit, consider installing a wet bolt kit so they can be greased.

[jbluetooth]

WNYBob wrote:
You don't mention the age of the trailer. Worn bushings can make sway worse..

What bushings are you referring to? The trailer is a 2008 but was barely used when I got it (60 hours on the generator). I greased all the wheel bearings and replaced the tires with Maxxis E rated before I used it. Let me know and I'll check out the bushings.
thanks!