No brakes on trailer

[crazyro]

Hey guys and gals. Picked up a new to us travel trailer and can't get brakes to work at all. Had to be extra careful towing it. Plugged in, truck shows "Trailer not connected. Check brake wiring." message. Squeezing the brake controller to send full charge does nothing. (factory brake controller) Cleaned 7 pin connector with electrical contact cleaner, fine grade sandpaper. Lights all work. Checked any wiring I could. Didn't see any wires connected to frame so I'm assuming ground is done via ball? Battery is brand new. When I pull the breakaway switch, there's no whine, no sound, nothing from brakes. I'm not in a place where I can take wheels off, but the only other thing I can think of is that maybe magnets are shot or seized and/or causing a short? Trailer sat for about a year and a half. I may just have to take it to a shop and let them check it out. Anything I could check? Camper is a 2002 Cedar Creek (35 RLS).

TIA.

[spoon059]

crazyro wrote:
I opened up that box last night looking for any stray wires or anything that didn't look right. There are no wires going out from that box to the frame. I wonder if that could be something I should add?

What year is your Ram? I know that Ram had a TSB out for their brake controller (IBC) for some years of the Gen 4.

"Integrated trailer brake control nodule

SYMPTOM/CONDITION:The customer may describe an intermittent condition where the trailer brakes feel as if they are not working for the first few brake applies. This condition only happens if the trailer has been connected before the vehicle was started."

Throw your VIN in this and see if the TSB applies to you. https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls

Otherwise, start playing with your brake settings. Change it from light trailer to heavy trailer, or heavy trailer to light trailer. Adjust the gain on it. See if those settings change anything. Whenever I get a new trailer, I take it to an open/empty area and test the brake controller at about 25-30 mph. Using the manual slider, I activate the brakes and see what happens. The goal is to get the trailer to apply just enough brake force to quickly stop me, without locking up the wheels. That is how I adjust my brake settings.

Best of luck. My IBC is great on my Ram, but I've heard that some people have problems with theirs. Worst case scenario, replace it with a nice Tekonsha P3 for $120 and keep on trucking.

[Gdetrailer]

crazyro wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:
If you follow the 7 pin cable back to the trailer, it will eventually terminate in a box near the trailer box on the tongue.

All grounds are supposed to terminate at that point and one ground wire from that box will run to the frame of the trailer.

I opened up that box last night looking for any stray wires or anything that didn't look right. There are no wires going out from that box to the frame. I wonder if that could be something I should add?

No need to add or modify as long as there IS a ground connection from trailer to vehicle via the 7 pin cable..

You can view a wiring diagram of the 7 pin connection HERE

Your trailer to tow vehicle cable should have a ground wire which should be WHITE.

The trailer brakes ground AND trailer lighting wires and one wire to the frame wire MUST connect to that white wire. The frame ground wire may have been done elsewhere like at the converter or battery.

The trailer brake positive wire MUST connect to the BLUE colored wire of the trailer to tow vehicle cable.

I honestly highly doubt it is "ground issue", if you were having a "grounding issue" you WILL be having issues with your stop/turn lights working incorrectly (like one brake light going out when stopping or opposite light quits using turn signals)..

I think the "grounding issue" brought up is a "red herring" sending you off down a "bunny trail" wasting your time.

The brake grounding must be done via the wiring running from the brakes all the way to the front of the trailer and back to the truck, this IS important.

Do not "add" ground wires to the frame at the axles, the ground wire IS already installed and runs up to the tongue.

See first diagram from Dexter axle..

HERE

HERE is a good writeup from Dexter on electric brakes, how they work and basic troubleshooting procedures..

[cummins2014]

crazyro wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:
If you follow the 7 pin cable back to the trailer, it will eventually terminate in a box near the trailer box on the tongue.

All grounds are supposed to terminate at that point and one ground wire from that box will run to the frame of the trailer.

I opened up that box last night looking for any stray wires or anything that didn't look right. There are no wires going out from that box to the frame. I wonder if that could be something I should add?

Which is usually the white wire , there would have to be a white wire going into the box ,as well as going out the other end for the plug. Its hard to say where exactly that white wire is connected to the frame. I have wired utility trailer trailers , with ,and without brakes . The flat four plug, the wiring harness has the white wire the same length as the rest , I just run all four back , connect them ,and ground back at the rear somewhere ,I do the same if I have brakes ,that ground wire just gets run to the rear where all the lights are getting wired.

Although I don't use a junction box on the flat four wiring ,its just ran back all the way, you buy the 4 wire harness in whatever length you need ,when I wired the one trailer with brakes , if I remember back then I just ran all the wires I needed in a wire loom , and branched off where they were needed . If I were to do it today it would be the junction box ,and a molded plug that plugs into the truck.

[crazyro]

Gdetrailer wrote:
If you follow the 7 pin cable back to the trailer, it will eventually terminate in a box near the trailer box on the tongue.

All grounds are supposed to terminate at that point and one ground wire from that box will run to the frame of the trailer.

I opened up that box last night looking for any stray wires or anything that didn't look right. There are no wires going out from that box to the frame. I wonder if that could be something I should add?

[Grit_dog]

cummins2014 wrote:


But makes no difference as long as the wires go to the apporiate position on the plug, no matter the color coding wire configuration is the same on all seven ways ,RV trailers or utility trailers .

Really? So you're saying the same terminal on both sides of the plug should be and is the same function?

lol

[Gdetrailer]

crazyro wrote:


I looked all up and down the trailer for a ground wire hooked onto axle or frame but didn't see one - that's why I mentioned ball as I know some trailers use it for ground (and have read that it's not a solid connection). I may just have to open the box and run an additional ground wire.

The brake system ground MUST run up to the tongue and the ground connection MUST be connected to the vehicle via the 7 pin connector..

If you follow the 7 pin cable back to the trailer, it will eventually terminate in a box near the trailer box on the tongue..

All grounds are supposed to terminate at that point and one ground wire from that box will run to the frame of the trailer..

Resist the notion of adding ground wires at the axles, doing so will cause ground loops (in the audio and video world ground loops are the techs nightmare to find and fix).. Those ground loops will cause differences in the current going through the brake magnets and may even cause connection issues with the brake controller..

As I mentioned before, newer brake controllers send out a quick pulse to detect presence of brakes.. Ground loops can affect the timing and size and shape of the return echo pulse which will cause the controller to not be able to determine if brakes are electrically present..

[cummins2014]

crazyro wrote:

cummins2014 wrote:


The thing is ,if its not getting a good ground ,most likely your lights will not be working, I wouldn't think . You did say all the lights are working ?? When the brakes are pressed are you getting the 12 volts or whatever to the plug on your truck, you may have mentioned you checked that ,and I missed it .

Correct. All lights work - have checked everything. When brakes are pressed, I'm not getting 12V to those two pins, but as it was mentioned above, unless there's a load detected, truck may not be sending full voltage anyway so that may be a bad way to check.

I have a Ram truck, with an integrated brake controller ,out of curiosity I am going to check that.

[crazyro]

cummins2014 wrote:


The thing is ,if its not getting a good ground ,most likely your lights will not be working, I wouldn't think . You did say all the lights are working ?? When the brakes are pressed are you getting the 12 volts or whatever to the plug on your truck, you may have mentioned you checked that ,and I missed it .

Correct. All lights work - have checked everything. When brakes are pressed, I'm not getting 12V to those two pins, but as it was mentioned above, unless there's a load detected, truck may not be sending full voltage anyway so that may be a bad way to check.

[cummins2014]

crazyro wrote:

cummins2014 wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:
When I did a EOH brake system on my Boat Trailer I would get an intermittent no trailer connection "NC". It drove me crazy till I just happened to touch the ground wire while looking for a bad connection and noticed I had not tightened the bolt fully to the frame. Snugged it up and all was well!

Bingo, was hoping someone would mention ground, had the same issue . I was looking to see if the OP mentioned checking the ground, he did mention getting the ground thru the ball, not a good way ,it will be intermittent no trailer connection ,been thru that also, I assumed I was getting a good ground thru the ball .

When I realized I wasn't getting a good ground on the trailer , I connected a separate wire to the trailer ran it alone the the other wiring, and connected inside the plug where it belonged , all was well then . IMO the OP is not grounded well enough .

To the OP ,do you get intermittent " NO TRAILER CONNECTION " ??? Also you did mention you see no ground wire ???

I looked all up and down the trailer for a ground wire hooked onto axle or frame but didn't see one - that's why I mentioned ball as I know some trailers use it for ground (and have read that it's not a solid connection). I may just have to open the box and run an additional ground wire.

The thing is ,if its not getting a good ground ,most likely your lights will not be working, I wouldn't think . You did say all the lights are working ?? When the brakes are pressed are you getting the 12 volts or whatever to the plug on your truck, you may have mentioned you checked that ,and I missed it .

[cummins2014]

Grit dog wrote:

Dave H M wrote:
cool pics guys. I copied then and will be putting them in the 5th wheel info packet. Thanks, Dave

Remember there are 2 different wiring color conventions.

But makes no difference as long as the wires go to the apporiate position on the plug, no matter the color coding wire configuration is the same on all seven ways ,RV trailers or utility trailers .

[crazyro]

cummins2014 wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:
When I did a EOH brake system on my Boat Trailer I would get an intermittent no trailer connection "NC". It drove me crazy till I just happened to touch the ground wire while looking for a bad connection and noticed I had not tightened the bolt fully to the frame. Snugged it up and all was well!

Bingo, was hoping someone would mention ground, had the same issue . I was looking to see if the OP mentioned checking the ground, he did mention getting the ground thru the ball, not a good way ,it will be intermittent no trailer connection ,been thru that also, I assumed I was getting a good ground thru the ball .

When I realized I wasn't getting a good ground on the trailer , I connected a separate wire to the trailer ran it alone the the other wiring, and connected inside the plug where it belonged , all was well then . IMO the OP is not grounded well enough .

To the OP ,do you get intermittent " NO TRAILER CONNECTION " ??? Also you did mention you see no ground wire ???

I looked all up and down the trailer for a ground wire hooked onto axle or frame but didn't see one - that's why I mentioned ball as I know some trailers use it for ground (and have read that it's not a solid connection). I may just have to open the box and run an additional ground wire.

[cummins2014]

Cummins12V98 wrote:
When I did a EOH brake system on my Boat Trailer I would get an intermittent no trailer connection "NC". It drove me crazy till I just happened to touch the ground wire while looking for a bad connection and noticed I had not tightened the bolt fully to the frame. Snugged it up and all was well!

Bingo, was hoping someone would mention ground, had the same issue . I was looking to see if the OP mentioned checking the ground, he did mention getting the ground thru the ball, not a good way ,it will be intermittent no trailer connection ,been thru that also, I assumed I was getting a good ground thru the ball .

When I realized I wasn't getting a good ground on the trailer , I connected a separate wire to the trailer ran it alone the the other wiring, and connected inside the plug where it belonged , all was well then . IMO the OP is not grounded well enough .

To the OP ,do you get intermittent " NO TRAILER CONNECTION " ??? Also you did mention you see no ground wire ???

[Gdetrailer]

crazyro wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

crazyro wrote:

Beaker wrote:
Factory integrated brake controller on my truck was causing same message on mine.

Argh. RAM apparently has had some issues with this. I just tested the truck 7 pin and with brakes depressed or brake controller fully engaged, I'm only getting 1/2 V on the ground and brake pins.
What was your solution?

Guess I should have also read page 2 of this thread..

(...)

The only way to troubleshoot and diagnose a IBC problem is to drive around with a trailer connected or build a test rig with resistors and lights and a meter that present enough load to trigger trailer connected response and drive around..

Thank you for all that information! I truly appreciate it.

I'm going to borrow a friend's camper tonight and will hook up to it. If truck detects it, then I know the issue is with my system. I will definitely follow through on all the suggestions and try all I can before taking it in (last resort).

Much appreciated.

You bet!

Rock Hill, SC? Been past that area many times over the yrs, take a run to MB and then head over to Spartanburg SC to visit my Cousins there typically once a yr.. I would lend a hand at troubleshooting but that is a healthy trip from PA.. Not to mention the virus thing sort of clipped our trip plans last yr and possibly this yr.

[Beaker]

Beaker wrote:

Factory integrated brake controller on my truck was causing same message on mine.

rgh. RAM apparently has had some issues with this. I just tested the truck 7 pin and with brakes depressed or brake controller fully engaged, I'm only getting 1/2 V on the ground and brake pins.
What was your solution?

Replaced under factory warranty.

[crazyro]

Gdetrailer wrote:

crazyro wrote:

Beaker wrote:
Factory integrated brake controller on my truck was causing same message on mine.

Argh. RAM apparently has had some issues with this. I just tested the truck 7 pin and with brakes depressed or brake controller fully engaged, I'm only getting 1/2 V on the ground and brake pins.
What was your solution?

Guess I should have also read page 2 of this thread..

(...)

The only way to troubleshoot and diagnose a IBC problem is to drive around with a trailer connected or build a test rig with resistors and lights and a meter that present enough load to trigger trailer connected response and drive around..

Thank you for all that information! I truly appreciate it.

I'm going to borrow a friend's camper tonight and will hook up to it. If truck detects it, then I know the issue is with my system. I will definitely follow through on all the suggestions and try all I can before taking it in (last resort).

Much appreciated.