Overwhelmed and worried about safety

[hs4816]

Hi all. I know threads of "can I tow XYZ with my ABC" probably get annoying and I've been reading and reading and reading. But I'm overwhelmed and my partner and I have never towed anything before. This is a major purchase and I'm afraid if we don't have the physics/math sorted out we could buy something that ends up unsafe.

We have a 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee with tow package. Unsure if it's a class 3 or 4 hitch, but will need to check that obviously. From what I can tell, the manufacturer recommended 6200 max pounds is pretty much a number to ignore and we should be focusing on tongue weight?

(all the dealers just keep saying we're fine and are pushing bigger/heavier units).

If my partner + me + baby + carseat = 510 pounds (round up to 550 pounds) and the Jeep has a limit of 1050 pounds for passenger + cargo, then that leaves us 500 pounds for the tongue weight (and no room to pack any gear at all in the car). Correct?

So if we are looking at a hybrid travel trailer that weighs 5400 fully loaded and the tongue weight is 10-15% of that (540-810) then that's too big for us. Right? Is there anyway to find out the exact tongue weight of a specific trailer before you buy it??

Or can I assume we will never fully load it and can keep it safely under 5400 pounds?

Also, our plan is to have sway bars, but is there a specific hitch type/brand you'd suggest we look at?

Seems like a tongue weight scale is an important purchase?

Any other thoughts??

[LarryJM]

mkirsch wrote:
The only way to be *sure* is to pick "the worst case of the worst case." That being, the trailer loaded to its GVWR, with a 15% tongue weight.

Even that might not be the worst of the worst in a small number of cases. I could believe upwards of 20% in a few unique loading and towing configurations.

Larry

[burningman]

Grit dog wrote:
make sure you know how much toothpaste is in the tube and where it sits with relation to rear axle load and tongue weight

Because, too much toothpaste will increase tongue weight, during brushing.

[SoundGuy]

Grit dog wrote:
Y’all probably sent hs416 to rent a hotel room and scared him (her?) off of towing with all this “make sure you know how much toothpaste is in the tube and where it sits with relation to rear axle load and tongue weight “ stuff.
Good lord. It’s a Jeep GC. It’ll tow a smallish trailer fine.

The OP said -"So if we are looking at a hybrid travel trailer that weighs 5400 fully loaded and the tongue weight is 10-15% of that (540-810) then that's too big for us. Right?"

Sorry, but as one who tows a trailer averaging 4800 lbs fully loaded & ready to camp, less if there's nothing in the tanks, a "5400 lb fully loaded" trailer isn't "smallish". Far from it actually, my own 24' triple bunk bed K-Z Spree which measured 26' 9" coupler to bumper averaged ~ 5500 lbs loaded & ready to camp and it certainly wasn't "smallish" either. :S

[Grit_dog]

Y’all probably sent hs416 to rent a hotel room and scared him (her?) off of towing with all this “make sure you know how much toothpaste is in the tube and where it sits with relation to rear axle load and tongue weight “ stuff.
Good lord. It’s a Jeep GC. It’ll tow a smallish trailer fine.

[RTFMOK]

Welcome to RV.net. I've been gone for about a decade, and am now setting up a Tahoe to pull a 5000 pound trailer.

What you are looking at is not out of bounds on the face of it, but may be approaching the limits.

There is no way to know the weights without getting weighed. CAT scales at truck stops near major highway interchanges are the gold standard for this.

The sticker in your door frame likely has much lower limits than what is in the brochures. And do not listen to either vehicle or RV sales folks; hearing some of them talk, a Kia could pull the moon out of orbit.

So practical matters. Is the GVWR of the trailer added to the weight of your loaded within the GCVWR of your Jeep?

If yes, can your Jeep handle 15% of the GVWR of the trailer?

If yes, you likely have a workable combination.

As I said, I am setting up a Tahoe. New tires, New shocks. New brakes. Some other parts including a good brake controller. All maintenance done.

All weight numbers good, but I am looking at WD (Weight Distribution) and sway control. Neither of these will compensate for being overloaded (I'm not, and don't think you are), but either or both can make the towing experience less stressful. And you are feeling some stress.

So some other hints...

Given a choice of carrying gear in the TV (Tow Vehicle) or TT (Travel Trailer), put the weight in the TT. As long as you are not over the TT or TV GVWRs, or the GCVWR, only about 15% of that weight is on the tongue.

If you feel sway, pull off and move some weight from the back of the TT to the front. This increases tongue weight. 10% is a minimum tongue weight for a TT, 15% is my goal. It just drives better.

Lots of sway all of a sudden? Use the trailer brakes to pull the rig straight, not the TV brakes. This is a very useful tip when headed down a steep grade... Or a semi blows past you at 75 and you are doing a "safe" 55.

This post will probably bring up several more questions for you, but there is no magic here. It is all understandable. Also keep in mind that the weight limits may have as much to do with reliability as they do with safety.

My big joint reliability and safety tip: Don't forget to air up all your tires before taking off.

[drsteve]

myredracer wrote:
Even *if* you are at or just under the tow vehicle max capacities, it can make for a bad towing experience and can be really hard on the drivetrain.

Note that babies quickly grow up into teenagers! Plan on the payload going up over time. 🙂

Yep, I smoked the transmission in my 3/4 ton GMC conversion van towing over weight.

As kids get older, the amount of stuff they bring along increases exponentially. This is especially true with daughters. By the time they are teens they will want to bring a friend, which decreases their embarrassment at at being seen in public with the parental units, but increases the payload even more. Be prepared.

[myredracer]

I would take the tow vehicle to a scale, fully loaded up with passengers, stuff you'd take camping and a full tank of fuel and subtract that from the GVWR rating on the door pillar sticker. Then you will know for sure what payload capacity you have left. The actual payload capacity of a TV can be somewhat less than what the sticker says. Since it sounds like you will be marginal, you might want to know exactly what you have available.

In the beginning we towed a 5K lb TT with an older V6 F150 that was at it's payload & towing capacity. Accelerated like a slug and couldn't make more than 35mph up steeper hills (around 7% grade). Terrible tow experience. Engine would often run flat out to make enough power just on moderate hills or in moderate headwinds on the flat. After just one season, we upgraded to a longer TT and F250. Sold the F150 to a coworker of DW and they had to replace the transmission shortly after even tho. it had low mileage. Even *if* you are at or just under the tow vehicle max capacities, it can make for a bad towing experience and can be really hard on the drivetrain.

Note that babies quickly grow up into teenagers! Plan on the payload going up over time. 🙂

[Fordlover]

SoundGuy wrote:

hs4816 wrote:
Where do I find this?? I was using the sticker inside door. "The combined weights of occupants plus cargo should never exceed 1050 lbs"

That's your particular vehicle's payload capacity as listed on the driver's side weight sticker BUT keep in mind it could be somewhat less if you've added any accessories to the vehicle. If you really want to know what your vehicle's actual, real world payload capacity is fill the tank and go weigh it. If you're in it at the time it's on the scale subtract your weight from the scale reading - the result will be your vehicle's actual curb weight as it sits there ready to be hitched to a trailer. Subtract that number from it's GVWR (also listed on the driver's side sticker) and the result will be the vehicle's actual payload capacity, that which you will use to account for the weight of everyone and all cargo in it at the time you're towing plus any trailer tongue weight transferred from the trailer to the vehicle once hitched up. With a vehicle like this you'll be shocked at how little you have to work with. :E

That is a little extreme isn't it? I mean you probably don't know what all one would load in your vehicle until you have your camper and have gone camping a few times.

The door sticker is sufficient to go off of if it is basically a stock SUV. It's not like a truck that you can add a 700 lb truck topper or 900 lbs. worth of ranch hand bumpers. Of course that is unless you've added a roof basket, massive wheels and a winch, etc. Technically speaking each grain of sand you track into the carpeting goes against your payload, but I think that is taking it a bit far.

OP, I tow with a midsize SUV and because the tongue weight of my camper is very close to the capacity on my truck (700 lbs.) everything I load goes into the camper, because we are way shy of our max capacity there (4,800 lbs. trailer with a 7,000 lbs. trailer tow capacity).

The combo has towed pretty well for the last 11 years, and if not for upgrading campers, we would continue this way.

One word of caution, if you are towing with what could be considered a marginal setup, don't cheap out on WD hitch and brake controller. I went with what was highly recommended 11 years ago, and I'm very glad I did (in signature).

[sam22]

I towed my trailer thousands of km's with a 2015 grand Cherokee V6 and my trailer weight was about the same as yours and it towed great but I did need to pay close attention to my weights. You should look at lighter trailers though if you want a hybrid. The advice to assume "worst case" when calculating weights is good, that way you'll never have to worry.

[BenK]

Many things contribute to the actual tongue weight

Highest contributor is the architecture of the trailer.

Toyhaulers have huge tongue weights when empty or their 'dry' weight. Because they are designed to carry very heavy stuff in the garage in back. Many times ATVs, golf carts, motor cycles, etc that counter that teeter-tooter weight. Pivot point is normally around the center of the axle(s)

Then some are designed for the highest possible 'towable' weight for marketing to newbies...heck even old folks who just believe blindly on the brochure number. These are usually listed with 10% tongue of the dry weight

On that, their 'dry' weight tongue weight is a way to tell what their loaded tongue weight will/might be. Few will advertise a tongue weight higher than about 12%, as they want the half ton folks to bite

Then the way it is loaded. Even how much water, as some have the water tanks forward of the axle center line(s). Plus the optional, bolted on stuff. Like Propane tanks...some upgrade to very large tanks.

My preference and recommendation is to keep it over 12%, but this OP has a very small TV and assume a very small rear GAWR, to tongue weight will become an issue. To help understand that...look at the higher class TV's above half tons and note that they most all have +6,000 RGAWR's for this very reason

This for hard sided trailers and why many advisors say hybrid or large PUPs.

And repeat...get actual weights of every thing and if don't have the trailer...use it's GVWR info (use the dry tongue weight and do the math to project that percentage using the GVWR)

[mkirsch]

The only way to be *sure* is to pick "the worst case of the worst case." That being, the trailer loaded to its GVWR, with a 15% tongue weight.

With 500lbs of tongue weight capacity available, and that being 15% of the overall trailer weight, you're looking at a trailer with a 3333lb GVWR. This isn't an exact science, so round up to 3500lb.

You can pretty much tow any trailer with a 3500lb GVWR comfortably and "safely" without having to worry much about what you bring along, or where you put it.

There is an excellent selection of single-axle hardside and hybrid travel trailers in the 3500lb range, not to mention just about every popup on the market will fit into this category.

To go any bigger than that, now you have to start paying attention to how much you bring along, and what you put where. Here if you're careful you can step up to a 4500lb GVWR trailer in most cases, as the actual tongue weights tend to be closer to 13%, and you will tend to not load the trailer right up to its GVWR.

One piece of advice I can leave you with is this: Don't get caught up in the drama that a lot of responses have. This isn't a deal where if you go 1lb over, your vehicle will fall apart and your family will die in a horrible fireball.

[drsteve]

hs4816 wrote:
Sure, but can't they estimate/calculate a "loaded tongue weight" at full carrying capacity?


Regardless, once it is loaded and you weigh it what determines if it is 10% or 15% or somewhere in between?? Isn't random or does it have to do with the hitch type?

The hitch has nothing to do with it. The determining factor is how you load the trailer. Weight behind the axle will remove weight from the tongue. Weight forward of the axle will add tongue weight. And since the factory has no idea what people will do, there's no way they can give a decent estimate.

Go to the scales and determine the actual loaded weight of the trailer, and the actual tongue weight. The actual tongue weight should be 13% to 15% of the traliler's total weight. If your tongue is light, remove weight from the rear, or just put more weight in the front compartment. Too heavy, do the opposite.

Usually, it all works out on it's own, because with the battery and propane bottles on the tongue, and the front storage being where everybody stashes heavy stuff, you won't end up with too light of a tongue, which is much worse than too heavy. Too light can cause serious sway issues. Too heavy, might make your truck squat a little.

Truth is most people never go anywhere near the scales, and they still do OK.

[hs4816]

Sure, but can't they estimate/calculate a "loaded tongue weight" at full carrying capacity?


Regardless, once it is loaded and you weigh it what determines if it is 10% or 15% or somewhere in between?? Isn't random or does it have to do with the hitch type?

drsteve wrote:

hs4816 wrote:
Is there any way to figure out exactly what the tongue weihht will be, assuming the trailer is loaded to the maximum and the weight is distributed evenly. Like, what determines if its 12% or if its 15% -- trailer type? Hitch brand? Or is the only way to actually load it and measure it? (ie. Why dont trailer manufacturers list a "loaded tongue weight" as opposed to a dry hitch weight?

The only way to truly know is to go to the scales, or weigh it with a tongue scale. The manufacturer lists the dry tongue weight because that's the only one they can measure. They do not know how, or how much, the trailer will be loaded when in use.

[drsteve]

This YouTube vid shows how to weigh your trailer tongue using a bathroom scale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMoLA44lcgU