RV industry death spiral...

[laknox]

I'm greatly looking forward to this series of articles over the next couple of weeks:

http://rvdailyreport.com/opinion/opinion-the-rv-industry-death-spiral-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment...

Lyle

[NW_Explorer]

SoundGuy wrote:

dewey02 wrote:
Edit: I see Gemsworld beat me to the answer. We agree that your basic assumption is incorrect.

You might want to read gemsworld's post again. 😉 Seems you're confusing "quality" with technological advances ... of course product quality has improved as the industry is much more technologically advanced than it was in 1971. As gemsworld said, you're not paying for improvement in quality per se but for these dramatic advancements in technology, the net result of which is a natural improvement in quality ... and the effects of inflation. Tough concept to understand, eh? :S

I do not want to start a political debate here, but most of the rest of that price difference between a 1971 pickup and today's is due to government regulations - right, wrong or indifferent. The rest is inflation and, admit it, we're getting a WHOLE LOT better truck!

The Walmart reference is really not applicable. When we buy groceries at Walmart we're buying the same products we would buy at another grocery store for less money. More like competition between dealers for the same RV.

I think if RV manufacturers restructured the pay plans in their factories that quality improvements could be accomplished. If I were in charge I would pay a decent hourly wage with bonuses for exceeding production goals, but only if warranty claims also were below goal.

[tpi]

I think the condo can be well-made too, just that it costs a lot of money to do that. What I think is happening is the flashy, veneered condo is selling for a price point that would be inhabited by a smaller and more utilitarian RV built at high quality level.

I think some of your best built trailers are Casita and similar. Of course that won't suit everyone due to small size. Livin Lite makes some interesting aluminum trailers. For many people RVing is just one of many recreation activites they engage in. They could consider that they may not need a condo, that a smaller, easier to maintain RV would pay off in benefits even if they are cramped for space or have to adjust.

[Txsurfer]

at what point did a "camper" turn into a condo on wheels? Expectations are high because the consumer wants to take his/her home with them and expect a vibrating / flexing mobile condo to be as solid / durable has a stick & brick home - well it's not and never will be. I would be willing to bet those that buy a low priced entry level trailer that is used for "camping" generally have a higher level of satisfaction than those buy a "glamping" rig.. just my take..fire away

[RGar974417]

I believe you can still buy a good RV. But it's like anything else,you get what you pay for. We had 2 Sunlines and would have bought another if they hadn't gone out of business when they were sold right before the 2008 recession. They were well made and if there was a problem, they took care of it. We currently have a 2015 Keystone Cougar. We have about 10,000 miles on it and knock on wood, we have had no major problems. The problems we had were small and I fixed them myself. We had problems with the RV dealer, but that's another story. But this is a $30,000 camper. If you buy a $14,000 trailer they have to cut costs some where.We used to go to the RV show in Harrisburg,Pa and looked at the various manufacturers. Without naming names,we saw the lack of quality in some. So we made our decision based on our research and ended up with some very good units.

[myredracer]

JimK-NY wrote:
Manufacturers make units that appeal to women by duplicating some of the appearance of a fashionable house. That gets the unit sold and off the lot.

Perhaps... But ask any woman what they think of counter space on a kitchen counter, what storage space is like for clothing, why there is nowhere to put shoes at the entry door or where they heck do you put a garbage can? It seems like RVs are designed entirely by males. But I would say when a couple is looking at RVs at a dealer or RV show, it's the colors and bling that stand out for the male and female and not the things that really matter (and don't get discovered until you own it).

[myredracer]

NoVa RT wrote:
I don't think the industry is in a death spiral, but from reading this forum for more than a decade and talking to other RVers, I think there is the potential for significant market disruption.

I agree with this. The time has never been better than now for an RV manufacturer to come along and introduce a market repositioning strategy to differentiate themselves. If they could market their product lineup so that their brand has a unique, credible and sustainable position in the marketplace IMO they'd have a good chance of taking a substantial part of sales away from competitors.

The primary thing that could shake up the industry is clearly quality. It's less about the quality of materials and components in the construction of an RV and more about quality of workmanship in the build process which is the one major area that needs a big change. A big question tho. is how to get the message out to consumers, especially those new to RV-ing.

In terms of towables, one example of a candidate for repositioning might be Northwood Manufacturing in Oregon. They're away from the prevailing mindset in Indiana, they already produce above average quality and they already have some excellent unique features (in-house built frame for ex.) so they are already somewhat differentiated. I've talked to their reps at RV shows a few times and their TTs just don't stand out from all the other brands on the floor and they don't use the word "quality".

[JimK-NY]

I don't think there is any doubt that Rvs are as a rule poorly made. This starts with poor design, poor engineering and then poor construction with low quality parts. RV manufacturing seems to be all about style. Manufacturers make units that appeal to women by duplicating some of the appearance of a fashionable house. That gets the unit sold and off the lot. Then the unit depreciates at a very rapid rate and generally falls apart after only a few years.

I cannot help but equate this to the situation with auto manufacturing back in the 50s and 60s. Only with foreign imports did the situation start to change. I think the RV industry is ripe for some real competition. Perhaps we will see that if the Chinese enter this market.

[NoVa_RT]

Although I'm pretty happy with my own unit, the Class B niche is a small part of the RV market. I don't think the industry is in a death spiral, but from reading this forum for more than a decade and talking to other RVers, I think there is the potential for significant market disruption. The widespread quality control problems are similar to those that plagued the Big 3 automakers in the late 1970s & early 80s, when Detroit & the UAW acted like they had a near-monopoly that could pass along higher prices and lower quality without consequences. Japanese & European competitors cleaned their clock by offering a better product, and it took quite a while for the domestic manufacturers to get their act together.

I'm not sure how many RV makers are positioned to benefit from better quality control, but it's almost certain that a failure to do so will sooner or later cause Lemon Laws and/or other consumer protections to be extended to RVs, while customers eventually vote with their feet and gravitate to those that produce better products.

[2gypsies1]

Good quality...Newmar

[free_radical]

Im sure there are good quality Rvs and bad Rvs..
maybe mods should make a sticky
In each section of Motorhomes,,TT ,,TC..etc where owners could rate their particular Rv on its quality build and satisfaction..stating time owned etc..

Sure Would make it simpler for new rvers to choose from what to buy,

[frankdamp]

The scarcity of places to stay is one of the major reasons we gave up the RV life. Eight mpg on $4.50 a gallon fuel was a close second.

The third most irritating problem was the build quality of our 2002 Georgetown 325. It looked OK but when I got under the interior skin to repair the effects of a water leak, I found a lot of other issues. The electrical wiring had the worst workmanship and a lot of cabinetry was not secured properly. Specifically, the overhead cabinets were attached to the Styrofoam ceiling insulation, not to structure.

[tpi]

I think there are severe production quality issues in the industry but I don't think it is in death spiral. Death spiral would come from other factors-economic for example. I think the industry is very cyclical and has been for decades.

There are examples of well made RVs in most categories. Born Free listed above is one. To newbies: If you care about quality you may have to prioritize it over size, so called luxury, etc. for your price point. If you can find a well built model with the factory close enough for factory service, so much the better.

[myredracer]

Poor quality RVs coming out of the factories; dealer's that don't know how to fix things (even simple ones); dealers and manufacturers that that don't care about supporting what they sell; dealers that have no technical knowledge on what they're selling; dealers that have no clue how to install a WDH; having to go to a 3rd party to try and get something dealt with that you have no direct contractual relationship with (frames, appliances, etc.); major lack of technical standards & codes; lack of government bodies to lodge complaints with; lack of warranty service when out on the road; absence of qualified/certified staff in factories on critical/important things (electrical & frame welding for ex.); an electrical code (NEC) that is way behind in needs of all the high power demands of today's RVs; blah blah, etc. etc. ...

The industry from RV manufacturers, dealers, component & part manufacturers to the RVIA is a pervasive self-serving culture that puts the consumer at the bottom of the totem pole. Didn't take me long after owning an RV to become hardened and cynical. My background is engineering in building construction where it's highly regulated, inspected by multiple parties and where the only way to do something is the right way. With RVs, nobody gives a fig about you or your RV. I don't buy the argument that quality control will drive RV prices way up. And if you aren't a handyman type and can't fix stuff yourself, may god help you. For those that read RV forums, you can end up living in fear that your RV will develop roof leaks and be seriously damaged, or get peeling decals, faded paint and tire damage from UV rays.

I know of a number of cases where new RVs had such severe problems that the entire RV was replaced under warranty. I met one TT owner that had major roof leaks from new and the dealer tried several times to fix it and couldn't. Then it was sent to the factory, but they only made it worse (the owner was a building inspector and was pretty p*ssed). Things like this would never happen in the automotive world.

Anyway, my point was going to be as if all of the above isn't bad enough, try getting into some CGs. We're members of a CG network and really wanted to get into one particular CG since our son is now living in Europe and visiting us in Aug. Although we tried a couple of months ahead, we couldn't get in. Phoned and phoned the CG direct and they don't answer and don't return calls. And when you do get into a CG, you're often faced with low voltage, low water pressure, no sewer hookups, no 50 amps, crappy sites, speeders, dogs off leash, loud noise and more. Some CGs require you to be on the phone 90 days in advance to book a site. If you have to change your camping schedule and need to re-book under 90 days, you are SOL.

Next time, I think I will look at getting a small plane, a yacht or a cabin in the woods instead (sigh). Late night TV in the US is riddled with ads from lawyers on class actions lawsuits on just about every medication made. Maybe some lawyer will buy an RV some day, get seriously scr*wed and start a class action against an RV manufacturer and wake the industry up.

[2012Coleman]

Sorry - but the RV industry is not in a death spiral. Last weekend found me in CW of St. Augustine looking for a part for my friction sway device - which they didn't have, so they wanted me to buy a whole new unit - but I digress.

Walking through to the sales dept offices on the way to the bathroom, I observed the same sign in 90% of the offices - "New RV Owner!".

I then went outside in the rain to check out the open house on one of their lines - wasn't Coleman, but can't remember. Toured 3 TT's and 2 fivers, and boy what ****. Had signs in them of the open house price and the MSRP - 10K + differences. But these things are flying off the lot.

[Community Alumni]

Here's a very good example of what is wrong with the RV industry. This is an excerpt from another thread. The RV in question is a new 2016 5th wheel.

On day one after delivery, the fireplace quit working and I'm still waiting on the repair. CW sent a replacement but it was the wrong fireplace and the repairman refused to install it. The second week the furnace quit working and the surround sound didn't work. The rig leaks like a screen door on a submarine every time it rains. The refrigerator quits running periodically for no apparent reason and a bubble is forming under the skin of the front.

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/28946266.cfm