To regulate or not to regulate?

[D_E_Bishop]

Thank you all for responding to this post, I have the answers to my questions and truly appreciate your civility and your thoughts, I will no longer be following the thread as I am satisfied with you responses. Thanks again for responding. David

Over the years there have been innumerable posts and discussions on the lack of preparedness of new RV owners in handling their rigs. Should there be performance tests or not and should driving an RV require a special operators license or not. There have been discussions about who should be responsible for training and licensing. So with the understanding that this is a delicate hot button question and there is a wide range of feelings and beliefs, should there be special written and performance tests for RV owners. If so, should the test be for all RVs or just for the “Big Guys”. Should the training be done by manufacturers or dealers, or from a for profit school or can it be self taught with performance tests by a governmental agency(DMV).

This is not a troll and I have the feeling that I should make the questions more exact and usable in framing so that there is quantifiable information gained. So here are my questions for the community;

1. Should the community have uniform training and performance testing in order to operate a RV on public roadways?

2. Should there be size and weight categories or applied to all owners regardless of size and weight?.

3. Should training be performed by a special entity and/or self taught based on specific criteria?

4. Should any or all of the above be age related?

5. Are current regulations adequate?

I am not sure what could be done with the results, I’m just wondering what the community thinks about being regulated. The questions are basic and exhaustive replies aren’t requested or needed, just K.I.S.S. Too much detail would make analysis of the answers very difficult, I don’t want to write a set of rules and regulations, I’m just interested in the communities viewpoint.

[drsteve]

It all depends...

Training for people to pull a small/medium TT or van sized Class C? No.

Training for guys who buy a 40' diesel pusher when the biggest thing they've ever driven is a minivan? Might just be a good idea.

[Bobbo]

Wrong thread

[valhalla360]

fj12ryder wrote:
Here ya go: List of countries by traffic-related death rate

Obviously the US is not the worst by a long shot, but most European countries with strict licensing and training are way down from ours.

It appears that the more lax the licensing and training, the higher the fatality rate.

Now I've stated my views and I shall sit back and simply read the postings with no more arguing.

Actually, depends which numbers you look at.
- We generally don't use Fatalities by themselves in the industry because they are so rare the standard deviation can be huge (ie: for justifying road safety projects, we typicaly average them in with Type A injury crashes otherwise 1 fatal crash which is not statistically significant can totally throw off the recommendation).
- Probably bigger is Fatalities per capita, are a poor measure unless driving patterns are similar, roads are similar and distance driven is similar). When you switch to a per mile rate, the USA moves up into the European range with several European countries as bad or worse.
- Road conditions have a huge impact. Europeans tend to do far more driving in congested urban areas. Low speeds tend to limit fatalities.

As far as 3rd world countries with the worst rates...many of them actually have more difficult testing and training but the driving culture is just crazy and cars are often in poor repair.

[JaxDad]

IMHO the big problem will be trying to figure out an acceptable, and universally applicable, way of restricting what someone can drive with a plain ole’ fashioned ‘car’ license without endorsements.

By length? By weight? By type of vehicle?

I suspect a BUNCH more people drive rental trucks or pull U-Haul type trailers than do RV’s, at least up to the point where they’re experienced enough for it not to matter much.

[fj12ryder]

Here ya go: List of countries by traffic-related death rate

Obviously the US is not the worst by a long shot, but most European countries with strict licensing and training are way down from ours.

It appears that the more lax the licensing and training, the higher the fatality rate.

Now I've stated my views and I shall sit back and simply read the postings with no more arguing.

[jplante4]

As with many things in our lives, the government will not solve the problem; insurance companies will. As soon as they start losing money and can point to inadequate training as the cause, they will offer discounts for taking driving courses on a regular basis and a premium penalty for not doing so. The problem will solve itself. Tip: When this happens, start a chain of RV driving schools.

[Bionic_Man]

fj12ryder wrote:

Bionic Man wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:

Bionic Man wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:
If more regulation, training, and more rigorous licensing didn't do any good, it's very unlike that the German high-speed autobahn would be as safe as it is.

Of course we need better licensing, that's a given. As for who should pay for it, obviously the people who are using it, and ability to perform with your vehicle of choice is stupidly obvious. How in the world can it be safe for a person to drive a Yugo to pick up his 40' diesel pusher, or his 1-ton dually pulling a 40' fifth wheel? That's just ignorant.

Training and licensing should be mandatory, and more testing for the inexperienced, i.e., the younger drivers, and those over 65. These are easy questions, and easy answers. We have high accident rates because drivers are just waved through the testing with no need to have any real ability to drive that multi-ton vehicle they just drove off in.

I'd suggest you read the comments posted prior to yours before you emphatically come across with "of course" and "that's a given". Because most folks here don't agree with you.

Disagreement with people doesn't make me wrong. People certainly are allowed their opinions even when they are wrong. Happens all the time, and many times in the past. Popular belief is not a criteria for the correct action.

Lots of people drive poorly simply because they have not been trained properly. Good/safe driving is a complicated task, and for some reason this country seems to think it is innate in any person that can walk through a door and correctly answer a dozen questions on a test, and drive a car around the block without running into anything.

I lived and drove in Germany for 2 1/2 years and discovered first hand how poorly Americans are trained. It's not that we can't be trained, it's simply we aren't given the opportunity.

And the fact that you lived in Germany (or any other assertion you make) doesn't make you right. Back off on your holier than thou attitude. There are plenty of examples where government regulation did not improve a situation. Probably many more than where it actually did have a positive outcome.

Sure, all you have to do is logically explain why countries with strict licensing and training regimens have lower accident and fatality rates than those that have lax licensing and training regimens.

Also, the fact that I believe that I'm correct in this assumption does not lead to a "holier than thou" attitude. That implies that I feel a moral superiority, when in fact I am just posting a pretty much proven fact. Believe it or not, it will still be true. Just open your eyes to it.

Show me the data the supports less accident/fatality rates per mile driven. That will help open my eyes (which surely wasn't a morally superior comment).

[wa8yxm]

First there are RV driving schools you can sign up for and attend.. Recommended

Second.. Regulations are good in some cases. A pain in others but if the driver of the RV is like one pick up driver I know of.. not much good. Well I do admit they did get him off the road for a while.. Here are his "Stats"

Over 7 DUI convictions
Told by the court DO NOT DRIVE
told by Doctors DO NOT DRIVE
Told by DMV DO NOT DRIVE
On probation. special conditions
DO NOT DRIVE
Do not consume or possess Booze (Alcohol)
Do not be an a place where Alcohol is served.

He drove to work (Felony)
Cashed his check at the bar (Felony driving there and setting foot inside)
Got drunk (Felony)
Back in his truck and drove the wrong way on teh freeyway killing one and putting another in critical condition (he of course was not injured).

20 to life for Homicide 2.

[fj12ryder]

Bionic Man wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:

Bionic Man wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:
If more regulation, training, and more rigorous licensing didn't do any good, it's very unlike that the German high-speed autobahn would be as safe as it is.

Of course we need better licensing, that's a given. As for who should pay for it, obviously the people who are using it, and ability to perform with your vehicle of choice is stupidly obvious. How in the world can it be safe for a person to drive a Yugo to pick up his 40' diesel pusher, or his 1-ton dually pulling a 40' fifth wheel? That's just ignorant.

Training and licensing should be mandatory, and more testing for the inexperienced, i.e., the younger drivers, and those over 65. These are easy questions, and easy answers. We have high accident rates because drivers are just waved through the testing with no need to have any real ability to drive that multi-ton vehicle they just drove off in.

I'd suggest you read the comments posted prior to yours before you emphatically come across with "of course" and "that's a given". Because most folks here don't agree with you.

Disagreement with people doesn't make me wrong. People certainly are allowed their opinions even when they are wrong. Happens all the time, and many times in the past. Popular belief is not a criteria for the correct action.

Lots of people drive poorly simply because they have not been trained properly. Good/safe driving is a complicated task, and for some reason this country seems to think it is innate in any person that can walk through a door and correctly answer a dozen questions on a test, and drive a car around the block without running into anything.

I lived and drove in Germany for 2 1/2 years and discovered first hand how poorly Americans are trained. It's not that we can't be trained, it's simply we aren't given the opportunity.

And the fact that you lived in Germany (or any other assertion you make) doesn't make you right. Back off on your holier than thou attitude. There are plenty of examples where government regulation did not improve a situation. Probably many more than where it actually did have a positive outcome.

Sure, all you have to do is logically explain why countries with strict licensing and training regimens have lower accident and fatality rates than those that have lax licensing and training regimens.

Also, the fact that I believe that I'm correct in this assumption does not lead to a "holier than thou" attitude. That implies that I feel a moral superiority, when in fact I am just posting a pretty much proven fact. Believe it or not, it will still be true. Just open your eyes to it.

[down_home]

First time i or my wife drove our MH was from the Dealer.
Took a bit more concentration to get familiar but we both had driven our Fifth Wheel Dualie combination and I had driven a semi in Nam a few times.
Test as such took a half hour. Backing up was most of it.
Walk around and so on was done by Motor Pool.

[down_home]

fj12ryder wrote:

down home wrote:
Regulate, regulate the call of the Socialists and those who think everyone else cannot tie their won shoes because they ccan't.
People know if they need practice and suchand attend to it themselves.
No regulations needed.
One of those kind is now in charge of TWRA and you must have safe boating certificate if born after 89 to operate a boat over 85 hp and register even a canoe. Limits on the number or Bream when you can catch hundred at a time every day e of the year.
The reason I said that because he a Liberal thinks that regulation and expensive licenses and permits gives control and money for more Regulators.
No Regulations and no Regulators. People are smart enough in most part of the Country to figure out things and to tie their won shoes themselves.
We want a free society not a well not a well regulated and permitted and poorer society.

Ah, this explains why people don't use cell phones, read books/newspapers, and just in general not pay attention: because they know it's not a smart thing to do.

That sentence positively dripped with sarcasm.

Also the regulations for fishing, and hunting partially, mainly came about because people could not be trusted to self-regulate themselves, leading to over fishing, over hunting and scarcity of fish and game. A person may be smart, people are stupid. Why are passenger pigeons extinct when they used to darken the skies, bald eagles were endangered at one time, the list is pretty long.

I can't reply it says improper formating

[Dutch_12078]

Since many/most states do have licensing requirements that RV operators with rigs over some size/weight limit must be tested on, it seems to me the argument isn't whether such testing is needed, but what the size limits requiring the testing should be. Should I have been required to meet the same testing requirements in my old Toyota 1-ton truck based 21' Class C as someone in a 45' DP? They're both motorhomes...

[NMDriver2]

I agree that strict testing and intense education makes for safer drivers. The military and many other countries have proved it.
BUT....
I do not know of any state that requires you to have a drivers license or insurance before you can buy any vehicle. If you have the money you have the vehicle and can drive it off the lot. I have sold several vehicles and never ask to see the persons drivers license before signing the title over to them. The point is any law or regulation is useless if it is not enforced, and a compliance test would have legally obligate sellers to test buyers.

I cancelled my CDL 5 years ago and have not had to show a drivers license to anyone since. I could probably drive the rest of my life (statistically another 10 yrs or so) without a drivers license. If you are going to require proof of competence it has to be a continually checked competence and the problems of continual testing will lead most people to not bother. After all the fine for not having a license is relatively small and the hassle of getting one these days is high. You need utility bills in your name, birth certificates, Social Security number, ETC, and marriage/divorce certificates if you are a woman who changed her last name when she got married/divorced. To bad if your spouse is listed on the bills and you are not.

Estimates vary by state but 1 in 8 do not have insurance and 1 in 10 do not have a valid license. No figures on how many drivers never even got a license in the first place. So without a on-the-road compliance program, like with commercial truck drivers, there would still be untrained drivers.

In short, the OP asked what people think and I think it is dreaming to expect Americans to be safe drivers. We all expect the accident to happen to the other person.

[Bionic_Man]

fj12ryder wrote:

Bionic Man wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:
If more regulation, training, and more rigorous licensing didn't do any good, it's very unlike that the German high-speed autobahn would be as safe as it is.

Of course we need better licensing, that's a given. As for who should pay for it, obviously the people who are using it, and ability to perform with your vehicle of choice is stupidly obvious. How in the world can it be safe for a person to drive a Yugo to pick up his 40' diesel pusher, or his 1-ton dually pulling a 40' fifth wheel? That's just ignorant.

Training and licensing should be mandatory, and more testing for the inexperienced, i.e., the younger drivers, and those over 65. These are easy questions, and easy answers. We have high accident rates because drivers are just waved through the testing with no need to have any real ability to drive that multi-ton vehicle they just drove off in.

I'd suggest you read the comments posted prior to yours before you emphatically come across with "of course" and "that's a given". Because most folks here don't agree with you.

Disagreement with people doesn't make me wrong. People certainly are allowed their opinions even when they are wrong. Happens all the time, and many times in the past. Popular belief is not a criteria for the correct action.

Lots of people drive poorly simply because they have not been trained properly. Good/safe driving is a complicated task, and for some reason this country seems to think it is innate in any person that can walk through a door and correctly answer a dozen questions on a test, and drive a car around the block without running into anything.

I lived and drove in Germany for 2 1/2 years and discovered first hand how poorly Americans are trained. It's not that we can't be trained, it's simply we aren't given the opportunity.

And the fact that you lived in Germany (or any other assertion you make) doesn't make you right. Back off on your holier than thou attitude. There are plenty of examples where government regulation did not improve a situation. Probably many more than where it actually did have a positive outcome.