Who's Looking Out for Our Interests?

[4X4Dodger]

As a group of people that have a single interest at heart (RV's and all that goes with that term) It seems to me that we are terribly under-represented in the halls of government and with almost no clout as a group with Manufacturers, Suppliers and Dealers.

While Good Sam Enterprises tries to position itself as our champion especially with their two sister publications Trailer Life and Motorhome. They really are businesses intended to make a profit and not consumer advocacy organizations.

While these two publications try to fill part of the consumer advocacy role with their RV Resolutions columns they still are a creature of their advertisers.

I have now read TL cover to cover for 6 months and some disturbing things are clear:

Their "reviews" or "tests" they do of new trailer models are basically not much more than thinly veiled advertisements with very little in the way of criticism or (God Forbid) Asking some hard questions like:

How is the Roof constructed?

Why are there no SHOCK ABsorbers?

Why are the tire Ratings so LOW?

Etc.

Further they have a huge bias in content and "reviews" that favors the Huge, Expensive, Luxo 5th Wheel trailers. Trailers that the vast majority of us do not own nor can afford. Dreaming is nice and they should spotlight those models on occasion, but their focus needs to be more realistic to their readers needs and interests.

We as a group deserve better from the major publication that purports to represent us as consumers. The great Car magazines Road and Track, Motor Trend et al made a REAL name for themselves by calling a dog a dog. And giving due praise where deserved, while pushing manufacturers to do better.

Unfortunately Trailer Life and Motorhome are creatures of their advertisers to such a great extent that I fear they will never really take on the single major isssue in this area: Quality Construction.

What we need is a publication and an organization that really represents the interests of RV owners. To government, to Manufacturers and Dealers and to Suppliers. Good Sam Enterprises is NOT it.

So Here is a Challenge to you Mr. Marcus Lemonis. (CEO Of Good Sam Ent.) Remember it is the RV'ers of this country that have made you what you are. Show us that you take our concerns to heart, put some teeth in those two old dogs you own, Trailer Life and Motorhome. Start Asking the HARD questions. Start doing "REAL" reviews that highlight the shortcomings, serious and otherwise of ALL the products you write about. Stop doing so much "Press Release Journalism" and start actually investigating.

In other words pay us back for all of the support and money we as a group have paid you over the years... That's not asking too much.


What do the rest of you think? I'd love to hear the comments on this issue.

[Dutch_12078]

Escapees RV Club:

"Escapees RV Advocacy Coalition"

We aim to alert RVers to potential problems, organize grassroots campaigns when necessary, and, when possible, push for solutions before detrimental laws are instituted.

Escapees has the top reputation for standing up for RVers’ rights! Over the past 35 years Escapees has fought to uphold RVers most fundamental rights (including the right to vote!) and has helped defeat unfair RV-specfic taxes.

Stay informed through Escapees Advocacy E-News, a critical alert hotline for legislative and advocacy issues affecting RVers.

[4X4Dodger]

mark1228 wrote:

4X4Dodger wrote:

Coach-man wrote:
First, government is not your friend! If they get to involved, they will be telling you what to buy, and/or price RV's out of the reach of most people. Magazines get revenue from two sources, advertisers and subscribers. If you subscribe and do not like what they are publishing, letter to the editor followed by canceling your subscription will get the message accross. Knowledge YOU get will help you avoid problem manufacturers, if problem manufacturers do not start putting out quality products they will go out of business. It comes down to us as individuals to take the responsibility to do our dilegiance and educate ourselves before we buy. That should keep most honest!

As the OP I did not suggest getting the government involved...I suggested a group to REPRESENT THE INTERESTS of RV owners and buyers TO government.

However more to your argument: The government has been involved in regulating the automobile almost since it's inception.

It is thanks to the government that we have seatbelts, airbags, anti lock brakes and many more improvements that are universally recognized to save lives...

And last I looked there was no government agent outside the car dealerships telling me which car I could or could not buy..

An organization that represents a group's interest is called an Association. Why don't you start one for RV owners?

Yes I am aware of that. In 1983 in Washington DC I founded and served as President and CEO of The American Association of Temporary and Contract Employees. We had a national membership. We lobbied ALL arms of government for the BENEFIT of our members watching out for bad legislation at the state and federal level. I spent a lot of time with congressmen, and women and Senators but I spent just as much if not more time with the REGULATORS who are the ones who actually write the rules to enforce the Laws that are passed. And this is where most of the influence is wielded. Only the politically naive thinks to have influence you need to give money...OH it helps for sure dont get me wrong..but you can have a great influence with a good logical argument and a powerbase behind you...ie. a big membership.

This is why when groups like AAA and AARP come calling to a government official they sit up and take notice...money or not.

I did several interviews with the National Press including The Boston Globe, The Wshington Post and Public Radio among others. I know well the power Media has.

This is why I made this suggestion.

As for myself starting another Organization...I have done my bit. I am retired. I would be happy to help in an advisory role for sure and to be involved on some level. But starting from the ground up is not the answer. The answer lies in making the groups that already exist more powerful, efficient and effective.

I know very well the influence GSE and Their Media enterprises could have on this issue if they chose to.

But let me be clear, Government is not the main target here. It is the RV manufacturers and their suppliers. Unfortunately the Anti-Government folks on here have sort of skewed and highjacked this argument away from it's original intent to just another excuse to rant about the government. This is not about the government nearly as much as about the builders.

[4X4Dodger]

kcmoedoe wrote:

4X4Dodger wrote:

Coach-man wrote:
First, government is not your friend! If they get to involved, they will be telling you what to buy, and/or price RV's out of the reach of most people. Magazines get revenue from two sources, advertisers and subscribers. If you subscribe and do not like what they are publishing, letter to the editor followed by canceling your subscription will get the message accross. Knowledge YOU get will help you avoid problem manufacturers, if problem manufacturers do not start putting out quality products they will go out of business. It comes down to us as individuals to take the responsibility to do our dilegiance and educate ourselves before we buy. That should keep most honest!

As the OP I did not suggest getting the government involved...I suggested a group to REPRESENT THE INTERESTS of RV owners and buyers TO government.

However more to your argument: The government has been involved in regulating the automobile almost since it's inception.

It is thanks to the government that we have seatbelts, airbags, anti lock brakes and many more improvements that are universally recognized to save lives...

And last I looked there was no government agent outside the car dealerships telling me which car I could or could not buy..

Actually, they do tell you what you can and cannot buy. You can't, for example, import a foreign made auto that has not been safety certified (crash tested). The government imposes Gas Guzzler taxes on certain vehicles. The impose fleet mileage requirements on manufacturers. They place stiff tariffs on imported trucks. All that affects what cars and trucks you can and cannot buy. RVing is an outlier when it comes to personal transportation. It would be awfully easy for a bureaucrat to decide that no one really needs a 45 foot pusher designed for two people that gets 6 miles per gallon and then implement a taxation policy that makes them even more unaffordable than they are now, all in the best interests of the country. Does anyone really think that bringing the industry further under government oversight would really be good for the industry?

With all due respect I think you have some of your facts wrong.

You CAN import just about any car you want on a one off exemption. I imported at various times a Deux Chevaux (Citroen 2CV) and a Citroen DS 21 Pallas. This exemption is still allowed. And it's not even that difficult.

Second none of the "imported" trucks are subject to tariffs because they are made in the USA. Providing jobs, income and lots of business for US suppliers. (This is one example of how tariffs work to our favor. But generally I am not in favor of them)

Third: a Gas Guzzeler Tax does not in any way prevent you from buying the vehicle of your choice. It just means you will have to spend more to pollute more and use more resources. It is at the end of the day... YOUR CHOICE.

Again; No ONE tells you you can not buy anything.

[camperkilgore]

Any idea of influencing politicians is hopeless unless the proposed association of RVers can "donate" to the politicians reelection fund. That's about the only thing that gets their attention.

[mark1228]

4X4Dodger wrote:

Coach-man wrote:
First, government is not your friend! If they get to involved, they will be telling you what to buy, and/or price RV's out of the reach of most people. Magazines get revenue from two sources, advertisers and subscribers. If you subscribe and do not like what they are publishing, letter to the editor followed by canceling your subscription will get the message accross. Knowledge YOU get will help you avoid problem manufacturers, if problem manufacturers do not start putting out quality products they will go out of business. It comes down to us as individuals to take the responsibility to do our dilegiance and educate ourselves before we buy. That should keep most honest!

As the OP I did not suggest getting the government involved...I suggested a group to REPRESENT THE INTERESTS of RV owners and buyers TO government.

However more to your argument: The government has been involved in regulating the automobile almost since it's inception.

It is thanks to the government that we have seatbelts, airbags, anti lock brakes and many more improvements that are universally recognized to save lives...

And last I looked there was no government agent outside the car dealerships telling me which car I could or could not buy..

An organization that represents a group's interest is called an Association. Why don't you start one for RV owners?

[kcmoedoe]

4X4Dodger wrote:

Coach-man wrote:
First, government is not your friend! If they get to involved, they will be telling you what to buy, and/or price RV's out of the reach of most people. Magazines get revenue from two sources, advertisers and subscribers. If you subscribe and do not like what they are publishing, letter to the editor followed by canceling your subscription will get the message accross. Knowledge YOU get will help you avoid problem manufacturers, if problem manufacturers do not start putting out quality products they will go out of business. It comes down to us as individuals to take the responsibility to do our dilegiance and educate ourselves before we buy. That should keep most honest!

As the OP I did not suggest getting the government involved...I suggested a group to REPRESENT THE INTERESTS of RV owners and buyers TO government.

However more to your argument: The government has been involved in regulating the automobile almost since it's inception.

It is thanks to the government that we have seatbelts, airbags, anti lock brakes and many more improvements that are universally recognized to save lives...

And last I looked there was no government agent outside the car dealerships telling me which car I could or could not buy..

Actually, they do tell you what you can and cannot buy. You can't, for example, import a foreign made auto that has not been safety certified (crash tested). The government imposes Gas Guzzler taxes on certain vehicles. The impose fleet mileage requirements on manufacturers. They place stiff tariffs on imported trucks. All that affects what cars and trucks you can and cannot buy. RVing is an outlier when it comes to personal transportation. It would be awfully easy for a bureaucrat to decide that no one really needs a 45 foot pusher designed for two people that gets 6 miles per gallon and then implement a taxation policy that makes them even more unaffordable than they are now, all in the best interests of the country. Does anyone really think that bringing the industry further under government oversight would really be good for the industry?

[4X4Dodger]

Coach-man wrote:
First, government is not your friend! If they get to involved, they will be telling you what to buy, and/or price RV's out of the reach of most people. Magazines get revenue from two sources, advertisers and subscribers. If you subscribe and do not like what they are publishing, letter to the editor followed by canceling your subscription will get the message accross. Knowledge YOU get will help you avoid problem manufacturers, if problem manufacturers do not start putting out quality products they will go out of business. It comes down to us as individuals to take the responsibility to do our dilegiance and educate ourselves before we buy. That should keep most honest!

As the OP I did not suggest getting the government involved...I suggested a group to REPRESENT THE INTERESTS of RV owners and buyers TO government.

However more to your argument: The government has been involved in regulating the automobile almost since it's inception.

It is thanks to the government that we have seatbelts, airbags, anti lock brakes and many more improvements that are universally recognized to save lives...

And last I looked there was no government agent outside the car dealerships telling me which car I could or could not buy..

[peaches_cream]

I am voting with my wallet. Until I can purchase a new Newell or Prevost, I will stay out of the RV market. That is what the poster's advise. :S

[Coach-man]

First, government is not your friend! If they get to involved, they will be telling you what to buy, and/or price RV's out of the reach of most people. Magazines get revenue from two sources, advertisers and subscribers. If you subscribe and do not like what they are publishing, letter to the editor followed by canceling your subscription will get the message accross. Knowledge YOU get will help you avoid problem manufacturers, if problem manufacturers do not start putting out quality products they will go out of business. It comes down to us as individuals to take the responsibility to do our dilegiance and educate ourselves before we buy. That should keep most honest!

[John_S_]

The issue is costs. It stated how do I find a quality RV that does not cost too much. You can' tips the answer. They have to cut quality to meet a price point. It is why I went and looked at FT. They have good Quality. There are more early 90 s models on the road then new ones. The costs in engineering a new coach are huge as the EPA kept changing the rules every two years so the costs go up or the quality goes down. In trailers they staple and glue and quickly assemble as they say it is not used much. If they built it tighter they would double the price. The nice units do cost mind if you are looking at construction.

[Gjac]

4X4Dodger wrote:

rv_russ wrote:
"It is a Call to the RV PRESS to step forward and become more like the Automotive press and Criticize bad quality, design and questionable products when they see them...ie Take More responsibility."

Having freelanced in the RV media for years, and written for Motorhome, Trailer Life, FMCA, and plenty of regionals, I can say, sure, there's plenty of financial incentive not to "bad mouth," the advertiser. But as others have commented, it's difficult to get a handle on poor quality -- other than really obvious poor quality -- until some time of bouncing down the road with your unit. Yes, I hear complaints about this rig or that, but oftentimes, the problem is again, subjective, not objective.

If you pick up a copy of Consumer Reports that goes back and evaluates autos from a historical perspective, they base their ratings on a wealth of (hopefully) quantified data, something you can sink your teeth into. If the press had that intestinal fortitude to report on the no-goodnicks, they'd still need to have solid facts to work from.

The poster who suggested a genuine, ongoing survey, may be on to something. But then, there'd need to be an independent, non-advertiser-driven medium to put out the information. Consumer Reports appeals to a wide audience, is the niche market of RVers enough to really financially support something like it? Since I'm on the editorial side, rather than the dollars and cents, I couldn't comment. Wish there really was a clear-cut answer to this ages old, and frustrating issue.

You make some good points.

But bad quality is not hard to spot. For instance if the magazine took an editorial stand that every trailer should be equipped with a minimum of Shock Absorbers, an enclosed underbody,and a battery of sufficient size,(these are just examples) Then everytime they did a test on a new product that didnt come up to those simple standards they would call them on it and ask the factory for a comment to be included in the test...Watch how fast then these items would make it into the next production run.

And of course there are many other issues of quality but IMO they are pretty easy to spot.

And how about a series of articles on the build quality of some of the major brands? With factory tours and photos? It would give the quality builders a boost and would encourage the others to step up.

What about some real world testing of stopping distances, real weight vs factory weight, etc etc. These are all things the RV press could start doing immediately in their product tests and accompanying articles. But I believe they live in fear. And they need a push from the RV'ing public to get them to step up and do some real testing and real reviews.

. These are very good points. Maybe a way to accomplish this is a section of this fourm called RV Reviews would be needed where owners could post this data along with problems they are having with their units. Mpg, 40-60mph times, wts, handling,etc are not easily found on the mfg web sites. This info is even harder to find on used units.

[4X4Dodger]

rv_russ wrote:
"It is a Call to the RV PRESS to step forward and become more like the Automotive press and Criticize bad quality, design and questionable products when they see them...ie Take More responsibility."

Having freelanced in the RV media for years, and written for Motorhome, Trailer Life, FMCA, and plenty of regionals, I can say, sure, there's plenty of financial incentive not to "bad mouth," the advertiser. But as others have commented, it's difficult to get a handle on poor quality -- other than really obvious poor quality -- until some time of bouncing down the road with your unit. Yes, I hear complaints about this rig or that, but oftentimes, the problem is again, subjective, not objective.

If you pick up a copy of Consumer Reports that goes back and evaluates autos from a historical perspective, they base their ratings on a wealth of (hopefully) quantified data, something you can sink your teeth into. If the press had that intestinal fortitude to report on the no-goodnicks, they'd still need to have solid facts to work from.

The poster who suggested a genuine, ongoing survey, may be on to something. But then, there'd need to be an independent, non-advertiser-driven medium to put out the information. Consumer Reports appeals to a wide audience, is the niche market of RVers enough to really financially support something like it? Since I'm on the editorial side, rather than the dollars and cents, I couldn't comment. Wish there really was a clear-cut answer to this ages old, and frustrating issue.

You make some good points.

But bad quality is not hard to spot. For instance if the magazine took an editorial stand that every trailer should be equipped with a minimum of Shock Absorbers, an enclosed underbody,and a battery of sufficient size,(these are just examples) Then everytime they did a test on a new product that didnt come up to those simple standards they would call them on it and ask the factory for a comment to be included in the test...Watch how fast then these items would make it into the next production run.

And of course there are many other issues of quality but IMO they are pretty easy to spot.

And how about a series of articles on the build quality of some of the major brands? With factory tours and photos? It would give the quality builders a boost and would encourage the others to step up.

What about some real world testing of stopping distances, real weight vs factory weight, etc etc. These are all things the RV press could start doing immediately in their product tests and accompanying articles. But I believe they live in fear. And they need a push from the RV'ing public to get them to step up and do some real testing and real reviews.

[4X4Dodger]

2012Coleman wrote:

Please do not presume to know what my logic is. It is really simple. Take responsibility for your actions and do not place that responsibility in someone else's hands. Use the fact that you are paying for the commodity to put the Responsibility back on the manufacture. If you do not have the ability to correctly access the good and bad in your purchase then take someone with you that does and listen to them. The RV industry produces what the RV buyers are willing to buy.

Gee - isn't that the root of the problem? So if you have an RV then your part of the problem - right? The rest of that quote makes absolutly no sense in the context of the original post.

Everybody on this board wants a quality product to do what they love to do, but the blowback the OP is getting says lay down and take it!

:H

You made a good point and I noticed that too. The level of apathy in some of the responses to my post is surprising given how many complain vociferously about quality problems.

I think there is just an element that hates anyone that proposes change or tries to change the status-quo. No matter how sad or badly in need of change that status-quo is.

Madison Avenue (generally speaking here) would love for consumers to just lay down and take it. Well educated, well researched buyers who demand quality can be a real pain in the backside.

[rv_russ]

"It is a Call to the RV PRESS to step forward and become more like the Automotive press and Criticize bad quality, design and questionable products when they see them...ie Take More responsibility."

Having freelanced in the RV media for years, and written for Motorhome, Trailer Life, FMCA, and plenty of regionals, I can say, sure, there's plenty of financial incentive not to "bad mouth," the advertiser. But as others have commented, it's difficult to get a handle on poor quality -- other than really obvious poor quality -- until some time of bouncing down the road with your unit. Yes, I hear complaints about this rig or that, but oftentimes, the problem is again, subjective, not objective.

If you pick up a copy of Consumer Reports that goes back and evaluates autos from a historical perspective, they base their ratings on a wealth of (hopefully) quantified data, something you can sink your teeth into. If the press had that intestinal fortitude to report on the no-goodnicks, they'd still need to have solid facts to work from.

The poster who suggested a genuine, ongoing survey, may be on to something. But then, there'd need to be an independent, non-advertiser-driven medium to put out the information. Consumer Reports appeals to a wide audience, is the niche market of RVers enough to really financially support something like it? Since I'm on the editorial side, rather than the dollars and cents, I couldn't comment. Wish there really was a clear-cut answer to this ages old, and frustrating issue.