8/1/2010 edit: Thread renamed at the suggestion of the Professor.
Renamed from: Champion Inverter and Remote Gens Promo on CPE's web site)
3/22/2011 edit: Thread renamed ...
Renamed from: Official CPE 2000 Watt Inverter Generator Thread
3/23/2011 edit: Thread renamed at the suggestion of the Professor.
Renamed from: (Un)Official CPE 2000 Watt Inverter Generator Thread
Inverter Available August 2010
Remote Available July 2010
Renamed from: Champion Inverter and Remote Gens Promo on CPE's web site)
3/22/2011 edit: Thread renamed ...
Renamed from: Official CPE 2000 Watt Inverter Generator Thread
3/23/2011 edit: Thread renamed at the suggestion of the Professor.
Renamed from: (Un)Official CPE 2000 Watt Inverter Generator Thread
Inverter Available August 2010
Remote Available July 2010
Wow, hit the wrong link and up come these cool waveforms.
Nice work toprudder!
All switch mode power supplies that do not have active power factor correction will look like this. They typically have a PF = 0.7. The power the converter takes from the ac lines is transferred during the short time ac current is conducting. That means the peaks of the sinusoidal voltage waveform have extreme loading.
Often, the sine wave will have a flat top. That means the source resistance (the generator output resistance and ac cabling resistance to the converter) is too large for the application.
Randy states his converter is generator friendly. There are several possibilities:
1. Extreme low gen and cable resistance.
2. The converter isn't pulling much power, hence not loading the ac voltage waveform. This seems to be a typical Performance Dynamic converter trait.
3. There's a power correction circuit.
Sal
Nice work toprudder!
All switch mode power supplies that do not have active power factor correction will look like this. They typically have a PF = 0.7. The power the converter takes from the ac lines is transferred during the short time ac current is conducting. That means the peaks of the sinusoidal voltage waveform have extreme loading.
Often, the sine wave will have a flat top. That means the source resistance (the generator output resistance and ac cabling resistance to the converter) is too large for the application.
Randy states his converter is generator friendly. There are several possibilities:
1. Extreme low gen and cable resistance.
2. The converter isn't pulling much power, hence not loading the ac voltage waveform. This seems to be a typical Performance Dynamic converter trait.
3. There's a power correction circuit.
Sal
Prof - I'm surprised that you think the PD converter is generator friendly. This is what my 9160A looks like:
One caveat is that it might make a difference if what you're looking at is a 9160/80 vs. a 9145. They are a different design. The picture is with the eu2000i as the power source. With the Onan Microlite driving the same load, the voltage curve is a distorted square wave. I've always looked at it from the point-of-view that the inverter generators are bad load friendly. The 9160's maximum output is higher with the eu2000i or shore power than with the Onan, I assume because the Onan's peak voltage is down significantly with the unfriendly load. The scope picture with a WFCO converter is almost identical. As far as back emf goes, shouldn't a parallel capable inverter generator by its nature be tolerant of that?
One caveat is that it might make a difference if what you're looking at is a 9160/80 vs. a 9145. They are a different design. The picture is with the eu2000i as the power source. With the Onan Microlite driving the same load, the voltage curve is a distorted square wave. I've always looked at it from the point-of-view that the inverter generators are bad load friendly. The 9160's maximum output is higher with the eu2000i or shore power than with the Onan, I assume because the Onan's peak voltage is down significantly with the unfriendly load. The scope picture with a WFCO converter is almost identical. As far as back emf goes, shouldn't a parallel capable inverter generator by its nature be tolerant of that?
If you will go back to the post made by Toprudder in the 3,000 Chinese Generator Info thread on 7/11/10 at 5:07 p.m., you will find the discussion, information, test results and conclusions that were the result of a power analyzer test of a WIFO converter/charger. The post has been reproduced in the boxes below my current comments:
Note the "back EMF" currents that can develop with the WFCO converter, which is perhaps the most commonly used converter as OEM equipment by the RV industry (it is less expensive).
The related postings where I made scope measurements of the output from a synchronous generator connected to the WFCO converter appear several postings before Bob's test results. It may be valuable to go back and look at those as well to see what I mean about the WFCO "being generator unfriendly."
The WFCO is NOT a generator friendly converter. It is especially unfriendly to a digital generator. It will apply loads at the junction of the switching transistors in a digital circuit that are greater than what you will measure with a conventional amp-meter or those that may be detected by a circuit breaker or the voltage drop across a resistor that senses digital overload.
Bob did not get to test the Progressive Dynamics converter. I did run some test with the PD where I measured waveforms with a scope as I did with the WFCO. Those tests showed that the PD converters DID NOT cause distortion and loading on the output waveform any more than another appliance. Therefore, my conclusion is the PD is much more generator friendly and less likely to cause damage to a digital from the back EMF apparent at the converter input.
Note the "back EMF" currents that can develop with the WFCO converter, which is perhaps the most commonly used converter as OEM equipment by the RV industry (it is less expensive).
The related postings where I made scope measurements of the output from a synchronous generator connected to the WFCO converter appear several postings before Bob's test results. It may be valuable to go back and look at those as well to see what I mean about the WFCO "being generator unfriendly."
The WFCO is NOT a generator friendly converter. It is especially unfriendly to a digital generator. It will apply loads at the junction of the switching transistors in a digital circuit that are greater than what you will measure with a conventional amp-meter or those that may be detected by a circuit breaker or the voltage drop across a resistor that senses digital overload.
Bob did not get to test the Progressive Dynamics converter. I did run some test with the PD where I measured waveforms with a scope as I did with the WFCO. Those tests showed that the PD converters DID NOT cause distortion and loading on the output waveform any more than another appliance. Therefore, my conclusion is the PD is much more generator friendly and less likely to cause damage to a digital from the back EMF apparent at the converter input.
toprudder wrote:professor95 wrote:toprudder wrote:
I will be pulling my camper next weekend and will be pulling it by where I work, so I may hook it up to a power analyzer to take a look at it. You've got my curiosity up. ๐
.... and mine too. I hope you are able to run the test and will share your findings. The only power analyzer I have is a 60 watt incandescent light bulb or two wet fingers.
OK, was able to stop by work on the way back from a trip, and hooked up the camper to a power analyzer. I turned off all breakers except for the converter. Since I had run the generator most of the morning, and then had the camper connected to the tow vehicle on the way back, the camper battery (a single G24) should have been fully charged. In order to load the converter more, I turned on all the lights in the camper.
The power analyzer system includes a solid state power source. Think of a powerful sine-wave inverter, but this one is powered by 208v three phase. There is also instrumentation to measure voltage and current waveforms and harmonics. We use this system to test products for compliance to (mostly) European requirements.
Here are the voltage/current waveforms:
As I suspected earlier, the current waveform is terrible. Current only flows when the voltage is near the peak. Also notice the amount of peak current, over 20 amps!
Here is the harmonic summary:
The European limits were used, but tested at 120v (European power is 230v, between phase and neutral). The WFCO converter failed the limits miserably.
The software for the analyzer also checks the voltage waveform to make sure it meets the requirements for the test standard. In this case, it failed. This is the first time I have ever tested anything that the voltage waveform requirement failed. I can only guess that the current waveform from the converter was so bad that it was distorting the voltage waveform from the power source.
Professor, given the output impedance of a generator, I'm not surprised you saw the chopped-off waveform that you did.
Now I wish I had a different brand (Iota or Progressive Dynamics) to test.
To Old & Slow, who was looking for this information and those who are wondering, too. Will the Champion 2000 watt inverter generator run an 1100 watt microwave while the charging converter circuit is on?
Today, I went out to the camper and went to pull the slide out and the batteries were dead. So, perfect opportunity! I started the generator up and allowed it to warm for about 5 minutes. I plugged the camper in while set on economy. Generator speed increased to a pretty high idle. Realizing that the fridge was set to auto and that I left it on when storing the camper, it was using the 120 volt feature and the converter was attempting to charge 2 dead batteries. The generator went into overload in about 5 or 6 seconds. I went inside and turned the fridge off and restarted the generator. It read 5.5 amps on the clamp meter and before I could get the camera out, the amps were decreasing.
So, first shot 4.93 amps. (I don't know how to post a picture)
I ran the microwave with a mug full of water and came back outside. Generator was running full boar and before I could get the camera out, it popped the circuit breaker at about 15.5 amps. Red overload light never illuminated. I restarted the generator and fired up the microwave, again (for 2 minutes). Note: Couple of minutes went by allowing the batteries to charge some before powering the microwave. Generator ran full boar again, and clamp meter showed 15.16 amps.
(both tests we started on econo mode)
It ran the full 2 minutes without further tripping or other indication of overload.
The hang ups in this situation is the refridgerator setting, an electric setting on your hot water heater if you have one, and the discharge condition of your batteries as well as other 12 volt loads. I didn't have any other loads.
Certainly, it is a great bargain, $499.00 for this type of generator vs. the $800+ for the Honda. So far, seperately, I can run my air compressor, 1000 watt lights, Camper fridge with converter charging 2 completely dead batteries, Microwave with camper fridge off or on Propane setting and converter charging 2 completely dead batteries and my Keureg Coffe maker. Remember I said seperately. Only combination was the microwave and converter/charger.
The only thing left for me to do is to see if by chance I can start my 13,500 AC unit with the SP7E hard start capacitor installed. I was able to start it with the off brand 3000 watt by East Coast by pulling the plug from the fan and allowing the compressor to lock and then plugging the blower back in.
I think it needs to warm up here in Connecticut.
Today, I went out to the camper and went to pull the slide out and the batteries were dead. So, perfect opportunity! I started the generator up and allowed it to warm for about 5 minutes. I plugged the camper in while set on economy. Generator speed increased to a pretty high idle. Realizing that the fridge was set to auto and that I left it on when storing the camper, it was using the 120 volt feature and the converter was attempting to charge 2 dead batteries. The generator went into overload in about 5 or 6 seconds. I went inside and turned the fridge off and restarted the generator. It read 5.5 amps on the clamp meter and before I could get the camera out, the amps were decreasing.
So, first shot 4.93 amps. (I don't know how to post a picture)
I ran the microwave with a mug full of water and came back outside. Generator was running full boar and before I could get the camera out, it popped the circuit breaker at about 15.5 amps. Red overload light never illuminated. I restarted the generator and fired up the microwave, again (for 2 minutes). Note: Couple of minutes went by allowing the batteries to charge some before powering the microwave. Generator ran full boar again, and clamp meter showed 15.16 amps.
(both tests we started on econo mode)
It ran the full 2 minutes without further tripping or other indication of overload.
The hang ups in this situation is the refridgerator setting, an electric setting on your hot water heater if you have one, and the discharge condition of your batteries as well as other 12 volt loads. I didn't have any other loads.
Certainly, it is a great bargain, $499.00 for this type of generator vs. the $800+ for the Honda. So far, seperately, I can run my air compressor, 1000 watt lights, Camper fridge with converter charging 2 completely dead batteries, Microwave with camper fridge off or on Propane setting and converter charging 2 completely dead batteries and my Keureg Coffe maker. Remember I said seperately. Only combination was the microwave and converter/charger.
The only thing left for me to do is to see if by chance I can start my 13,500 AC unit with the SP7E hard start capacitor installed. I was able to start it with the off brand 3000 watt by East Coast by pulling the plug from the fan and allowing the compressor to lock and then plugging the blower back in.
I think it needs to warm up here in Connecticut.
okay i don't know if there is any interest, but here is what i did so i can monitor the hours on my little genny...i got one of those little tach/hour meters from the motorcycle shop and mounted to the air cleaner cover...i think it came out pretty good...i did want to mount it some where on the outside, but couldn't decide where to put it that wouldn't get knocked around (i didn't really want to cut up the plastic either)and i usually get my air filter every couple of trips...
i made a little aluminum bracket
i used the existing bolt and the notches fit the cover to keep it from moving
i tapped the bracket and used locktight to hold them in...
i made a little aluminum bracket
i used the existing bolt and the notches fit the cover to keep it from moving
i tapped the bracket and used locktight to hold them in...
