Untangling an electrical mess! Need some guidance/paid help

[rambleonrose]

I don't know if this is allowed - please, admin, let me know, if not!

*If you have the skills and willingness/time to have a video session about this, to see things more clearly, I will happily compensate for your time - we can agree on rate, etc via message. I'm in NY, and hiring someone to come out just isn't an option right now. I have a good amount of AC electrical experience, and I learn quickly, but some things just aren't available to search for online. The timing is horrible with the weather finally breaking and allowing time to work, but essential business and travel only, so I'm on my own, locally....*


I am currently working on a rebuild on an '87 class C RV. We ended up having to gut the entire thing due to water damage. Some things were already torn apart/changed when we purchased, including (much to my surprise) part of the electrical system. (just like a previously owned house, it's always a crapshoot if the person before actually knew what they were doing. Likely not, in most cases...) There's also a likelihood that I took apart something without realizing that I wouldn't be able to figure out where it's supposed to go back.... I will admit to this - I naively thought I'd remember.

Having done extensive house (AC) wiring before, I felt fairly confident in rewiring this RV. Well, a previous owner(s?) has mucked things up for me by making their own alterations and not labeling anything - several things had been disconnected and/or wired differently, and there are a couple things that I just can't figure out what to do with! I've also never dealt with DC, and while I've been studying several good sources, I'd like verification on a few things, before I commit to starting.



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1. I want to verify something - the converter is on the left, yes? Would that make the component on the right the inverter? Every schematic I've seen has an inverter, but I've also read that not every RV has one. Also, a technician repair manual I acquired doesn't even mention an inverter, so I'm a tad confused... I thought they were necessary... ??




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2. So power from the converter has it's own breaker on the AC side. Pictured is the nonsense I found. The end of the wire was hooked up to a breaker, but that crazy soldered connection was just hanging loose (!!!). I'm not sure if they were just putting an extension in (why would they need to? Wouldn't it reach, as wired from the factory??) or if it was hooked up to another wire that I don't/didn't see...




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3. There's a 2A DC fuse that I think I pulled and now I don't know what it's supposed to go to. (this is the one I admit to screwing up!) Pictured is the end of it. The rest of the DC loads are pretty clear, and I've already labeled and traced out all the wires, but this has me stumped. perhaps some sort of monitor/indicator thing? Obviously something with very low power requirements.... I can't find anything online about it.... Recognize the way it was connected, perhaps?




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4. The DC neutral(wrong word but I don't know the DC term!) bus was hooked up outside of the box. Makes sense, because there's no space in there. But... all the boxes I've looked up online have it inside. Not sure if it makes a difference if the wires are hooked up correctly, but it was literally taped to the side, so any other suggestions as to how to more properly mount this would be great!




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There are a few other funky things that have me banging my head up against a wall, but I'm not sure how best to describe. It would be so much easier to show someone in person or via video, but the in-person isn't an option right now.


I'm really hoping that an electrically savvy person/RV electrician sees this. This RV is totally gutted, and there's not much more I can do as far as rebuild without doing the electrical first, so I want to get it done!

Thanks!

[dougrainer]

The DC and AC are separate in an RV. Most of the HOUSE appliances use DC current. The exceptions are
1. Roof AC uses 120
2. Microwave uses 120
3. Refer uses 12 volt DC to run the controls, but uses 120 volt to operate the Heat element when NOT using the LP side of the refer.
4. TV's and DVD/VCR's use 120 volt
5. Now we talk about what you are confused about. You see and posted pics of the Power Center which has the 120 breakers on to and beside which has the 12 volt DC fuses. The BOTTOM section is indeed the CONVERTER. The Converter takes 120 volt current and CONVERTS that to 12 volt DC. This is standard for almost all RV's. This is how you maintain and operate all the DC items in the house section of the RV when connected to 120 shore Power or have the Genset running .
6. INVERTER is not a term you need to worry about on your particular RV
INVERTERS take 12 volt BATTERY power and convert 12 volt DC to 120 volt AC current to operate selected appliances in the RV. When you do not use the Genset or Shore 120 power. Doug

[rambleonrose]

theoldwizard1 wrote:

wa8yxm wrote:

In house wiring (120VAC) WHITE is neutral. Black is hot (at least usually)
In automotive and electroic wiring Black is "Ground" Usually (not always).

Typically 120VAC wiring uses "Romex" (a black, a white and a bare inside of a sheath) and the wire itself is solid, not stranded.

12VDC wiring is usually single conductor and is stranded.

That bus bar with single stranded white wire is very odd !

Personally, I would pull as much of the wiring out as possible and START OVER !

Yeah, there are a few odd things, which is why I'm struggling. When it comes to house stuff, I usually rip everything out and start from scratch! It's why I've ended up doing so much wiring, because I walk into an 80 YO house that's had half a dozen random nonsense patch jobs on it, and given that I'm not an actual trained electrician, it's way easier to just build a brand new setup.

My problem is, I don't still understand DC, and how the two exactly connect.

I'm trying to learn DC, and sort out what - that's currently there - is actually correct/code, and what is some guy's hodgepodge nonsense.... NOT easy, because I can't find a reference for the detailed wiring and components online. I feel like I have the very basics, and then I see a random wire, and I'm like 'where tf does this even go??' I've searched for a 'build-from'scratch' source online, and come up empty-handed. They've all been extremely basic in nature, and I think I need something more extensive that tells me every component and all that. Considering that I'm already thousands above the value of this total POS RV, adding another god-knows-how-much to pay someone to re-wire really pains me, especially when I feel like I should be able to learn this....

[rambleonrose]

Yikes! Sorry about the giant pics. Thanks for the tips. Fixed now.

Thanks for the links re: the converter - I'll study them.

dougrainer wrote:
1. There is no such thing as a DC neutral buss.

I knew that was the wrong word, but I wasn't sure what to call it - I should have used a question mark or something. That's the AC term...


2. If outside the box, it is usually the GROUND/Negative BUSS for the 12 volt DC appliances and connection from the Chassis frame ground

Ok, my DC understanding is still shaky, and I"m trying to differentiate it between AC, and remember the **** terms... So AC has 'hot' 'neutral' and 'ground', C only has 'hot' and 'ground' (because it's direct - single direction flow(?) - current)?


3. The wire(Black) that has the 2 wires soldered together, that is the HOT 120 wire that comes from the CONVERTER to the 120 breaker in the breaker box. The soldered end is installed in the breaker(15 or 20 amp) and the Black loose pigtail is wire nutted to a 120 appliance or 120 wall receptacle as its FEED 120 power.
4. The box on the bottom of your power center is the Magnetek Power Converter itself.

So that whole bottom portion is the converter - Ok. Is an INVERTER not needed, then? One poster suggested an upgrade to just an inverter... Unless I misunderstood their post, it sounded like they were saying to do away with the converter altogether, and only have AC when connected to SP... I do want the option of off-grid, and I'd like to keep at least one 120VAC - phone or computer charging, likely - I suppose my old cigarette lighter plug could do that, though... Thoughts?


5. The ONLY stranded wires will be the 3 120 wires FROM the 30 amp Power cord in the pic where you are holding the soldered wire. The other stranded wires will be that black soldered wire you are holding and the WHITE Neutral wire that runs from the CONVERTER along with the Black soldered wire that connects to the 30 amp breaker

6. Remember, EXCEPT for item 5 above. any other stranded wires will be 12 volt DC wires. The Romex 120 wiring leaving the Breaker panel going to 120 receptacles and 120 appliances will be solid core copper.


ok makes sense.



7. Here is where it gets tricky. From your last 2 pics, it appears the 12 volt DC wires were 2 stranded Black and white together. USUALLY, the WHITE is the Ground/Negative. The BLACK will be 12 volt positive. This is standard RV wire color. Don't use Automobile color standards.
I state this because you stated the WHITE wires were all together on an outside the power center wire BUSS. They use a common Ground. The Black wires will be connected to the 12 volt fuse panel. Doug

So black in my hot line - Yes? I'm not familiar with Auto color standards, and I think another poster said the colors/black were backwards.... I'm sorry if I seem daft and full of questions, I'm trying to correlate the DC terms with what's already in my brain. I'm a visual/hands on learner, so this has been challenging for me, as I have nothing at all to refer to, and finding videos online that are even close to my setup has left me fairly empty-handed...


Thanks for your detailed & patient response, Doug. I really appreciate it! I don't think I'm in over my head just yet, but I'm definitely treading water, trying to learn as I go.

[theoldwizard1]

wa8yxm wrote:

In house wiring (120VAC) WHITE is neutral. Black is hot (at least usually)
In automotive and electroic wiring Black is "Ground" Usually (not always).

Typically 120VAC wiring uses "Romex" (a black, a white and a bare inside of a sheath) and the wire itself is solid, not stranded.

12VDC wiring is usually single conductor and is stranded.

That bus bar with single stranded white wire is very odd !

Personally, I would pull as much of the wiring out as possible and START OVER !

[wa8yxm]

For assorted reasons your photos
1: did not display properly (Too wide)
2: I'm not good working with photos.

You mentioned extensive experience with house wiring. I'm cross trained. I've done house wiring but I'm a certified electronics technician.

In house wiring WHITE is neutral. Black is hot (at least usually)
In automotive and electroic wiring Black is "Ground" Usually (not always)

IN RV.. Well the HOUSE is wired by (usually) electricians (House standard) and the chassis on a motor home by Automotive types.

So your multi-meter is your friend when working on the 12 volt sides of life. Check polarities.

[ScottG]

Please resize your images to the forum guidlines of 480x640 MAX.

[theoldwizard1]

What are the plans for the future ? Inverter ? If so, I highly recommend you scrap your converter/charger and get an inverter/charge/transfer switch. MUCH EASIER TO INSTALL AND USE !

All DC circuit go through the DC fuse panel to the battery. DONE !

The inverter/charger/transfer switch has one DC + and one DC - connection. DONE !

The inverter/charger/transfer switch has one AC input (shore power cord) and one AC power outlet that goes to the AC fuse/breaker panel. DONE !

[DFord]

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[dougrainer]

1. There is no such thing as a DC neutral buss.
2. If outside the box, it is usually the GROUND/Negative BUSS for the 12 volt DC appliances and connection from the Chassis frame ground
3. The wire(Black) that has the 2 wires soldered together, that is the HOT 120 wire that comes from the CONVERTER to the 120 breaker in the breaker box. The soldered end is installed in the breaker(15 or 20 amp) and the Black loose pigtail is wire nutted to a 120 appliance or 120 wall receptacle as its FEED 120 power.
4. The box on the bottom of your power center is the Magnetek Power Converter itself.
5. The ONLY stranded wires will be the 3 120 wires FROM the 30 amp Power cord in the pic where you are holding the soldered wire. The other stranded wires will be that black soldered wire you are holding and the WHITE Neutral wire that runs from the CONVERTER along with the Black soldered wire that connects to the 30 amp breaker
6. Remember, EXCEPT for item 5 above. any other stranded wires will be 12 volt DC wires. The Romex 120 wiring leaving the Breaker panel going to 120 receptacles and 120 appliances will be solid core copper.
7. Here is where it gets tricky. From your last 2 pics, it appears the 12 volt DC wires were 2 stranded Black and white together. USUALLY, the WHITE is the Ground/Negative. The BLACK will be 12 volt positive. This is standard RV wire color. Don't use Automobile color standards.
I state this because you stated the WHITE wires were all together on an outside the power center wire BUSS. They use a common Ground. The Black wires will be connected to the 12 volt fuse panel. Doug

[ksg5000]

Thats an old Magnetek converter which most would recommend you upgrade (not expensive). If you go to website Bestconverter.com and you will find a link on the left lower side of the website called something like Magnetek upgrade - lots of valuable info - worth a look.

[BFL13]

Your photo shows a note that says you have a Magnetek 6336 converter. That would be reasonable for a 1987 rig. This manual and other stuff should help you some keep scrolling down:

http://www.hayseed.net/~jpk5lad/RV%20Information/MagnaTek%20Pwr%20Converter/RV%20Binder1.pdf