Upper shock mount broke clear off. Flippin' unbelievable!

[myredracer]

Could have killed us:

We had Monroe shock absorbers installed on our TT care of our dealer when we got it new in April of 2014. The dealer insisted they take care of it so they sent it down the street to a suspension shop.

I handed over the shocks, lower mounting brackets, bolts and flat bar for the upper mounting brackets. All they had to do was the install and some welding. I made up a very detailed drawing showing EXACTLY how I wanted it installed. I showed the upper brackets to have 45 degree chamfers for max. weld penetration onto the beam surfaces. Seems like they totally ignored the drawing. With out going into a lot of details, they really botched the work and I went back TWICE again to try and get it taken care of but they refused in the end. The dealer (who we paid directly for the work) refused to have anything to do with it. So from the beginning I was NOT happy.

We just finished a 2500 mile trip through the Oregon Cascades from the Or/Wa border south into Ca. and on into Reno. Drove on a lot of highway sections with many twists and turns at speeds up to 60-65 mph. Numerous sheer drop-offs on one side too. Many downhill runs at up to 9% grade often with corners at the bottom to get around. A blowout on a tire could have been potentially deadly if it happened at 60+ mph, on a steep downhill descent, round a corner. Add a sheer drop-off and it gives me chills.

Got back on Friday and today I was looking underneath to check that all was okay. It's not. The upper mount from one of the shocks came clear off the I-beam it was welded to (or supposed to be welded to) - photo 1. The shock was obviously flopping around as the flared edge at the bottom of the upper half of the shock tube was rubbing against the tire and cut a sharp groove in the tire. Tire is now history. Photo 2 shows how the bracket is supposed to be positioned. I had specified that the 3" x 3/16" plate be welded to the top and bottom flanges of the beam. I can only surmise this happened closer to home.

I also wonder if the shock did not stay in the upright position and was flopping around what might have happened. Or if a blowout happened and the shock was flying around whacking things. Maybe might have been a lot of damage from flying rubber and other debris.

In looking closer at the broken bracket (last photo), there is NO weld material at all on the flange of the I-beam. They just did a butt joint with a surface weld instead of a chamfer that I asked for. Two of the other brackets have failed lower welds and I assume the 4th is no good with close inspection and maybe some dye.

I just don't don't know what to say at this point. Just glad we made it home okay. I even made mention of the shop in a post in another thread yesterday about how bad they were.

Will be interesting to see what the dealer says. It has nothing to do with the manufacturer, KZ (we have a 2 year warranty). We paid the dealer for the work and they insisted on the particular shop. We did not hire the suspension shop. It's one of those things that could even end up in court I suppose. I am totally pi**ed. I could even have done this myself with my MIG welder and done a good job or I know a mobile welder that could have done it too.

Maybe I'll just take up flying a small plane instead of RV-ing. Safer, cheaper and less aggravation.

[brulaz]

jwmII wrote:

...
The problem is that as we all get a little older this stuff keeps getting harder to do. In that vein we try to find someone to do this stuff for us and repeatedly get burned in the process. The guy that finds a shop that can meet all of his needs has a real treasure and should count his lucky stars.

True this.
Good luck with your search myredracer.
I'm still looking in my area.

[myredracer]

Spridle wrote:
Simple problem actually, It’s a poor weld with no penetration into the supplied bracket. It’s clear in the picture.
If there was a design problem causing unwanted stress and I had personally welded the brackets, the shocks would have bent up but the brackets would still be intact.
Another poor MIG welding example. What a crappy bead, it missed the bracket most of the time and attached only to the frame. How obvious.

Yes it is simple. VERY simple. Some just can't see that. It only *looked* like it was welded in place. The top of the bracket was basically 100% unattached to the frame and the bottom was barely hanging on from the start. They did not actually use the brackets as supplied to them. Can't wait until next week when a certified welder looks at it.

I will repeat again, the shop substantially changed how I specified the brackets to be installed (without my knowledge or permission) which was a flat plate welded to the upper and lower beam flanges just like Lippert does on many, many frames. In fact, the 2016 models of KZ Spree have this same plate welded to the Lippert beam.

Frankenstein design? Someone should go tell Nash that because I specified something very close to what they do for their shock mounts. Go look at the photo in the post a couple of pages back...

[free_radical]

time_to_go_now wrote:

myredracer wrote:
The whole point of starting this thread was to show how bad a professional suspension shop's welding and work can be and what the consequences could have been, not to argue where shocks should be installed. Done, done, done...

This always happens. The OP starts a thread by "look at what crappy work so-and-so did on my RV". Then they show pictures. The problem is that there are many very experienced people on this site that know how it should have been done. When they start to question the OP, the OP eventually throws out a statement like the one above, "done, done, done".

I build off road vehicles as a hobby. I have a welder in my garage. Used it yesterday to weld some axle brackets together! In a prior life, I made airplane parts for Northrop and Boeing. I have designed many parts, and made many shock mounts. Maybe the issue is just a bad weld. I never would have trusted this to some shop that an RV place wants to use! But, that is just me. The design, IMO, was not a good design. I would have mounted the shocks inboard of the frame. I don't care how much clearance there is outside the frame or who else mounts the shocks outside the frame. I would have made custom brackets that were strong and gusseted that would have just bolted to the frame. Not welded. If that was not possible, I would have created a new cross member that would have gone from frame to frame and welded brackets to that as the upper shock mount.

While your intention was to show how bad a professionals work can be, this thread actually turned in to much more than that. With feedback and opinions from some very smart people. So, while you don't seem to want to listen to any opinion other than your own, I have learned a great deal from this thread. So, thank you for starting it.

Good luck.

Excellent points..
I've done quite a bit of car mods in my day,welding too,and never have seen any shock or suspension brackets the way OP designed it,,having only a weld holding it on,,
was doomed to failure from the beginning..man was lucky it didn't cause worse damage

[philh]

I'm confused... you want to protect the warranty and then force the dealer to add parts designed by you and expect anything out of it? Did you inspect the quality of the welds before even taking this frankensuspension out on the road?

Sorry, unless you've run this design, THE WHOLE DESIGN, through a stress analysis, you have no idea how the different segments impact the system.

[westend]

Myred,
This all just reinforces my DIY ethic and lack of trust for any type of warranty. If you believe your design is the most durable and elegant and don't want to get hot and dirty, I'd suggest to hire the frame shop experts you trust. If parts locations are super-critical, mark the locations yourself. Not every welder can interface with a customer, a schematic drawing, and his clamps.

Jim's post and advice of bolting to frame has a lot of merit, got me to thinking about the layout of the brackets. Since you have a web truss frame, bolting the bracket through to an opposing side filler plate would add a lot of strength to the bracket and also develop better frame integrity. The bracket plate and filler plate could also be welded into place. once critical dimensions and operational function are secured. You could note that Northwood's shock bracket looks like it wraps the frame. If you do go to the bolt-through method, I'd suggest to add a sistered filler piece against the frame vertical for some distance from the bracket. This will help to spread the loads out into the frame from the single bracket location.

The additional back story of how the brackets had to be cut back out and rewelded into a better location adds some reasoning as to the quality of the work involved. Some guys get pretty frustrated when confronted with redoing their work. Doesn't excuse the poor welding techniques but does explain a possible scenario.

Good luck with a better resolution for the shocks.

[Spridle]

Simple problem actually, It’s a poor weld with no penetration into the supplied bracket. It’s clear in the picture.
If there was a design problem causing unwanted stress and I had personally welded the brackets, the shocks would have bent up but the brackets would still be intact.
Another poor MIG welding example. What a crappy bead, it missed the bracket most of the time and attached only to the frame. How obvious.

[myredracer]

jwmII wrote:
Since you have the tools and expertise to do this yourself it begs the question as to why you didn't do it yourself?? Your specs and drawing probably never reached the folks doing the job.

The TT was brand new and we did not want to have the warranty voided if there was ever a problem. Had a very serious issue on a previous TT that was covered under warranty so BTDT. The dealer insisted that they do the work for warranty reasons, we just didn't know that they would farm it out. Lippert will use ANY excuse they can to get out of dealing with a warranty issue. I told the dealer I wanted to take care of the installation (whether I hired someone or did it myself) but the dealer said it would be goodbye to the warranty.

The suspension shop absolutely had the drawing, they simply chose to ignore it. At first, they had the brackets welded in different for/aft positions plus the holes for the shock holes were at different elevations. The slide out shaft was even resting directly on top of one the shocks. They were totally po'd when I told them they needed to fix it. They also destroyed the metal bushing/sleeve inserts that go into the rubber ends on the shocks. They pounded them in on an anvil with a hammer as one employee told me. I had to replace them all but the shop refused to take responsibility. The photo shows one of the bushings (at under 200 miles). I only found out because I took one off when inspecting one of the brackets and then subsequently found all the others the same way. Bunch of total bozos.

Yes, maybe there is a close connection between the dealer and suspension shop. Not sure why our dealer couldn't have done this, or have called in a certified welder if needed (they have several hoists).

The dealer had our TT down at the shop and up on a hoist by the time I found out where it was and was told to go down and go over exactly what I wanted. Didn't have any idea at first how bad they would turn out to be. If it did have to go to a frame/axle/suspension shop to satisfy them, I had a top notch one I would have used that I've used before. Am taking it there this coming week to get fixed and to get a report done to take to the dealer.

Now finding out the dealer are bozos as well. They were supposed to do a complete bearing maintenance including cleaning the bearings, inspection and a repack as is stated in writing on the work order. Turns out about all the did was pump grease in or possibly do nothing at all and the bearings have 2 different types of grease in them. They tried to scam us for $1000 initially until I talked to Alko. (See my other thread on bearings.)

When we first bought a TT, three TTs and 3 years ago, we thought all you did was hook it up to your truck and drive off into the sunset to camp happily ever after. How naive... Am now a hardened and cynical RV owner after this and other things we've been through.

[jwmII]

Since you have the tools and expertise to do this yourself it begs the question as to why you didn't do it yourself?? Your specs and drawing probably never reached the folks doing the job. And if they did get your specs you must know by now that they are smarter than you are and know all they think they need to know about you and your kind of job. You were asking for something to be done that was way above their heads. This job was doomed when that dealer insisted on sending you to the place you were skeptical of from the git go. Probably his B.I.L. or his wifes' second cousin. You've already pissed away enough time complaining on this forum that you could have done a good and proper job mounting your shocks. Same old story! If you can "just do it yourself". The problem is that as we all get a little older this stuff keeps getting harder to do. In that vein we try to find someone to do this stuff for us and repeatedly get burned in the process. The guy that finds a shop that can meet all of his needs has a real treasure and should count his lucky stars.

[Bobbo]

Sometimes people don't want to learn, they only want to vent.

Mission accomplished.

[time_to_go_now]

myredracer wrote:
The whole point of starting this thread was to show how bad a professional suspension shop's welding and work can be and what the consequences could have been, not to argue where shocks should be installed. Done, done, done...

This always happens. The OP starts a thread by "look at what crappy work so-and-so did on my RV". Then they show pictures. The problem is that there are many very experienced people on this site that know how it should have been done. When they start to question the OP, the OP eventually throws out a statement like the one above, "done, done, done".

I build off road vehicles as a hobby. I have a welder in my garage. Used it yesterday to weld some axle brackets together! In a prior life, I made airplane parts for Northrop and Boeing. I have designed many parts, and made many shock mounts. Maybe the issue is just a bad weld. I never would have trusted this to some shop that an RV place wants to use! But, that is just me. The design, IMO, was not a good design. I would have mounted the shocks inboard of the frame. I don't care how much clearance there is outside the frame or who else mounts the shocks outside the frame. I would have made custom brackets that were strong and gusseted that would have just bolted to the frame. Not welded. If that was not possible, I would have created a new cross member that would have gone from frame to frame and welded brackets to that as the upper shock mount.

While your intention was to show how bad a professionals work can be, this thread actually turned in to much more than that. With feedback and opinions from some very smart people. So, while you don't seem to want to listen to any opinion other than your own, I have learned a great deal from this thread. So, thank you for starting it.

Good luck.

[allen8106]

I'm not an Engineer but I'm questioning the sanity of mounting the shock between the frame and the tire. Based on pictures of other similar mods I've seen I would have expected the shocks to be mounted on the inside of the frame, not the outside. Not that that would have prevented the weld from breaking loose but may have prevented damage to the tire.

[brulaz]

Huntindog wrote:

...
Nothing wrong with with the Northwood pic, except it doesn't really show how much clearance there is....
...

Just eyeballing it, there's approx about 1" clearance between the max width of the tire and the shock, when the trailer's not turning.

[john_bet]

LarryJM wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

myredracer wrote:
As well, the installation drawing I made up was sent to Lippert for approval and nothing was asked to be changed.

.

Now that is funny.
All the drawings that I have sent in didn't get a response indicating that changes were needed either.:B

Lippert or any other big company doesn't respond to every wanna be engineer that sends in proposed mod plans to their products.. Too much liability for them.

Lippert ignored you didn't they? If you even did that.
They are probably still laughing at the office.

I agree ... believing that a manufacturer would respond to such a thing shows a high degree of lack of understanding how things work. While I'm far from what I would call knowledgeable in subjects such as this it seems at least to me clearly demonstrate why one has to be careful in mucking around with some things. Of course I'm also one to strongly question the need for shocks on a non passenger carrying vehicle such as a trailer. I would guess for those few trailers offering such an option it is mainly there for marketing purposes and not for any real "ENGINEERING BASED NEED".

Larry

If as you reason they are not needed, then why did my now 11 year old 5er come with them from the factory. Someone up there must have thought they were needed. JMHO.

[myredracer]

Huntindog wrote:

myredracer wrote:
As well, the installation drawing I made up was sent to Lippert for approval and nothing was asked to be changed.

.

Now that is funny.
All the drawings that I have sent in didn't get a response indicating that changes were needed either.:B

Lippert or any other big company doesn't respond to every wanna be engineer that sends in proposed mod plans to their products.. Too much liability for them.

Lippert ignored you didn't they? If you even did that.
They are probably still laughing at the office.

Could care less whether they did or not, it's the fact that it was submitted that would matter in court if it ever got to that. At least in our legal system.

Off to get some LT tires today. I think they may help with our shock situation plus I'll be able to go faster in a straight line on a freeway... :B