Will "Smart Vehicles" and their marketing cause more crashes

[rhagfo]

I will start this post with quotes from the 2017 F150 post.

spoon059 wrote:

rhagfo wrote:
We have already seen deaths due to people not turning off their engines when parking in the garage!

I think that has more to due with driver error/stupidity than an auto feature.

Its kinda like the "Runaway Toyota's" from a couple years back. Turns out that it was DRIVER ERROR. Drivers weren't properly securing floormats, which got underneath the accelerator and caused the accelerator to get stuck. Rather than put cars in neutral, they continued trying (unsuccessfully) to mash on the brakes. Didn't work.

mich800 wrote:

rhagfo wrote:



Yes, I do understand the concept and reason, I see a wrongful lawsuit in some car makers future because of this feature.
We have already seen deaths due to people not turning off their engines when parking in the garage!

Death from stop/start. Are you sure you are not confusing push button start. I have not heard of one death blamed on the stop/start function.

First of all let me say I am not anti technology, just one that asks "What If"!
I installed the Factory Curse Control on my 1968 Mustang GTCS in 1969 to control the lead in my right foot. Great option saved me far more than the $75 for the factory kit.
That said much of the marketing around much of the new technology seems to encourage bad driving habits! While not all marketing demonstrates these devices poorly, many do with drivers doing everything BUT driving while behind the wheel!

Used correctly most if not all will add to road safety, BUT for those that think these will allow them to focus their attention on things other than driving just scares me to death.
I travel a lot for my work, and rent many new cars with these features, some great some not so great.
One that I liked but was also annoying was a parking assistance that started beeping as you got closer to objects, well at the house we stay at here in Ireland while visiting the Granddaughter there is a tight gate and arch to the parking area. So every time through the beeper would go off, glad the car this time didn't have it!!

[time2roll]

Autonomous vehicles don't have to be autonomous everywhere and in every situation to be worthwhile. Such as the vehicle after learning your daily commute would most likely do a better job of improving both safety and traffic flow. Or for well programmed major highways to control speed, following distance, lane changes etc should make the driving experience better and safer. To think accidents will be immediately eliminated is unrealistic. However the recorded accident situation will clarify who did what and IMO will far more often point to the unsafe vehicle being controlled by a person.

[Paul_Clancy]

rhagfo wrote:

Paul Clancy wrote:
How is any of that worse than a semi locking its brakes in front of you? I get being paranoid of new tech that alters the old way of driving, especially on this board that leans older demographic and conservative. The same arguments were made against seat belts, airbags, stability control anti lock brakes etc. Nanny state in my car -no way. This tech will save lives when used properly and won't when not. I choose to have it given the choice. It not only makes me safer but those around me. Many will not see the benifits until they experience it. Some not then either.

Well I likely fit your "Older demographic and.conservative" I embraced all of the devices you mention, seat belts were added to all my vehicles, including a set of seat belt shoulder belt into my 64 Econoline van.
I also believe the most of the alert systems are great, although they may lead to drivers paying less attention to the job at hand. I see many doing every thing but driving going down the road.
There are already several documented cases of these devices causing unexpected braking. They currently use only local information around the vehicle, when I am driving I am not only looking at the vehicles near me but also, well down the road in front and behind, already way too many drivers don't look far enough down the road as they are tailgating.
I see these autonomous car working well in the city, and the interstates and moderate weather, but likely not well in snow or other blinding conditions.
I know fog could be OR not be an issue, many years ago late 80's or early 90's Sea-Tac airport and Alaska Airlines installed a system in the runways and planes that would allow take offs and landings in near zero visibility.

Sure it will be about the majority of gains versus small losses (the odd seatbelt fails too). We are far from truly autonomous cars and the driver aids currently provided (standard in new corollas so that shows how common now) are in their 3rd generation and very reliable. Until you sit in a new car and experience these on the road it is hard to understand how seamless and beneficial it can be to the overall stress of driving. Head on a swivel every time you hit the road is unsustainable. I think you are assuming that these systems allow bad drivers to be worse. In my experience the reverse is true and actually makes them better via lane departure, blind spot, rear cross traffic and forward collision alert tones. Its the truly bad drivers who will disable these systems to allow them to continue being bad drivers.

[toedtoes]

Paul Clancy wrote:
How is any of that worse than a semi locking its brakes in front of you? I get being paranoid of new tech that alters the old way of driving, especially on this board that leans older demographic and conservative. The same arguments were made against seat belts, airbags, stability control anti lock brakes etc. Nanny state in my car -no way. This tech will save lives when used properly and won't when not. I choose to have it given the choice. It not only makes me safer but those around me. Many will not see the benifits until they experience it. Some not then either.

Well I don't fit your assumed demographics. I'm not afraid of new tech and I don't think it's a bad thing per se.

However, I don't think having an example with only auto-driven cars on the road proves anything. Guess what, if people kept to proper distances and equal speeds on the road, then they too could brake like that without hitting.

But, PEOPLE don't do that. And as long as they are on the road, the abilities of these self-driving cars will be limited and adversely impacted.

Another concern is how to react in a similar but different scenario. I was always taught to not swerve if a deer appears in the road. But if it were a child in the road, there is NO WAY I wouldn't swerve. While a self-driving car can brake if a deer appears, can it know to swerve if it's a person that appears - or will it do the same "emergency procedure" regardless of what is there?

Will it be better in the future? Sure - once they have found ways to minimize the outside factors.
Until then, the benefits will be in a back and forth with the negatives.

I accept change fairly well (having done process improvement for work for years, it's something i've seen almost daily). But I don't assume change won't happen without a hitch. I don't assume technology will have resolved all the problems. Understanding where technology will be less than effective is an important part that can't be ignored. And right now, self-driving cars are not a change that will happen smoothly.

[wilber1]

Considering the number of people we saw texting and otherwise messing with their phones on the I5 heading south this year (quite a few big rig drivers) I'm thinking there is a need for more automation because too many people just aren't paying attention whether they have it or not.

[rhagfo]

Paul Clancy wrote:
How is any of that worse than a semi locking its brakes in front of you? I get being paranoid of new tech that alters the old way of driving, especially on this board that leans older demographic and conservative. The same arguments were made against seat belts, airbags, stability control anti lock brakes etc. Nanny state in my car -no way. This tech will save lives when used properly and won't when not. I choose to have it given the choice. It not only makes me safer but those around me. Many will not see the benifits until they experience it. Some not then either.

Well I likely fit your "Older demographic and.conservative" I embraced all of the devices you mention, seat belts were added to all my vehicles, including a set of seat belt shoulder belt into my 64 Econoline van.
I also believe the most of the alert systems are great, although they may lead to drivers paying less attention to the job at hand. I see many doing every thing but driving going down the road.
There are already several documented cases of these devices causing unexpected braking. They currently use only local information around the vehicle, when I am driving I am not only looking at the vehicles near me but also, well down the road in front and behind, already way too many drivers don't look far enough down the road as they are tailgating.
I see these autonomous car working well in the city, and the interstates and moderate weather, but likely not well in snow or other blinding conditions.
I know fog could be OR not be an issue, many years ago late 80's or early 90's Sea-Tac airport and Alaska Airlines installed a system in the runways and planes that would allow take offs and landings in near zero visibility.

[Paul_Clancy]

How is any of that worse than a semi locking its brakes in front of you? I get being paranoid of new tech that alters the old way of driving, especially on this board that leans older demographic and conservative. The same arguments were made against seat belts, airbags, stability control anti lock brakes etc. Nanny state in my car -no way. This tech will save lives when used properly and won't when not. I choose to have it given the choice. It not only makes me safer but those around me. Many will not see the benifits until they experience it. Some not then either.

[4x4ord]

toedtoes wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

Halmfamily wrote:
Check out on YouTube Hyundai Genesis Empty Car Convoy, sorry cant make a link from my droid, and you will see what a modern car can do. It's amazing to see the technology that you can walk on to the car lot and purchase today.

Looks like the easy stuff is about handled.

When all the cars on the road are auto-piloted, going the same speed, following the rules, staying a proper distance behind, etc., then auto-pilot is great.

It's when you add in the person-driven car that cuts between two of those cars, tailgates, speeds, changes lane without warning, and so on that the trouble starts.

[toedtoes]

4x4ord wrote:

Halmfamily wrote:
Check out on YouTube Hyundai Genesis Empty Car Convoy, sorry cant make a link from my droid, and you will see what a modern car can do. It's amazing to see the technology that you can walk on to the car lot and purchase today.

Looks like the easy stuff is about handled.

When all the cars on the road are auto-piloted, going the same speed, following the rules, staying a proper distance behind, etc., then auto-pilot is great.

It's when you add in the person-driven car that cuts between two of those cars, tailgates, speeds, changes lane without warning, and so on that the trouble starts.

[4x4ord]

Halmfamily wrote:
Check out on YouTube Hyundai Genesis Empty Car Convoy, sorry cant make a link from my droid, and you will see what a modern car can do. It's amazing to see the technology that you can walk on to the car lot and purchase today.

Looks like the easy stuff is about handled.

[Halmfamily]

Check out on YouTube Hyundai Genesis Empty Car Convoy, sorry cant make a link from my droid, and you will see what a modern car can do. It's amazing to see the technology that you can walk on to the car lot and purchase today.

[4x4ord]

fj12ryder wrote:
^^^^^I'm curious why you don't feel it will cause you to be less attentive. Seems like knowing the car will CYA if you make a minor screw-up would tend to cause a person to, at least unconsciously, be a bit less watchful.

I can understand the logic in what you're saying, however, I have spent my life operating farm equipment. During certain seasons I have spent 16 hour days fighting all day long to stay awake. Over the last 15 years or so GPS steering has taken over the meticulous job of steering the equipment. You'd think it would cause me to really struggle with staying awake but in fact the opposite is true....I find that I am much more alert and pay closer attention to the machine that I am operating now that I don't have to concentrate on steering it. We actually haven't taken delivery of this car yet so I guess I'll know a little more after driving it a bit .....if my wife will let me.

[fj12ryder]

^^^^^I'm curious why you don't feel it will cause you to be less attentive. Seems like knowing the car will CYA if you make a minor screw-up would tend to cause a person to, at least unconsciously, be a bit less watchful.

[4x4ord]

We just bought a new Honda Civic last night. Although it is a far cry from being autonomous I do like the way it will keep me between the lines or brake if need be in the event that I get distracted or a little dozy. I suspect it will make me a safer driver rather than cause me to be less attentive. I look forward to having this level of technology on my truck. Being totally replaced by a robot driver does not really appeal to me though.

[BenK]

Guess many will prefer this girl friend you can buy and command as you wish...

Japan Creates Lifelike Japanese Robot Girlfriend

and

The male version will be your driver


Nope...not for me.

Think people will become obsolete once they become blobs like in the movie Wall-E...

Can now see folks loving their camping experience...the robotic bear really looked like the real thing...even the skunk looked real and boy...was the spray stinky...best was when the robotic driver also served as the pack mule lugging the camping gear up the trail and even set up the camp site!!!!

[Grit_dog]

rjstractor wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
Don't sell the stupidity of the general population short.

True statement. The transition to autonomous cars might be pretty messy and if not handled well it won't happen at all. As cars allow drivers to pay less attention at the wheel, they will pay less attention, regardless of what the manufacturers recommend. The aforementioned Tesla crash is a prime example where if the driver had been paying attention like he should have been he would have at least had a chance of surviving.

The public as a whole thinks in a funny way, we will tolerate thousands of highway deaths per year due to human error, but it will take just a few high-profile deaths caused by technology errors to sour the public on the idea of driverless cars.

That's because the public would have someone with deep pockets to blame. Hard to sue yourself.....