DEF Shelf Life!

[jjr1314]

Just a quick tip for those that are new to Diesels with all of the newer emission controls. DEF apparently has a shelf life and using anything other than DEF bought from the dealer may void your warranty.
I have a 2011 Duramax and recently had a message on the DIC stating Diesel Exhaust Fluid Quality Poor. Unfortunately I ended up in Limp Mode before I could make it to the 1st Dealer.
I tried to get a service appointment at the dealer I purchased the truck from but they were backed up with recall work. So off to Dealer #1. Dealer #1 was absolutely no help what so ever. They stated that since I had used DEF from an Auto Parts store and not from a dealer they would not cover any of the repairs under warranty. They also said the only fix was to replace the entire DEF Tank to get rid of the supposedly bad fluid. I said no way, put my truck back together and I would be by to pick it up.
Dealer #2 (where I purchased the truck from). Sorry if I am breaking forum rules here but when service is good I think we owe it to them to give them credit. Dave Sinclair Buick GMC is the place I will go for service from now on. I did some research prior to the appointment and was ready to argue my points to them. No need to. They said that they have in the past had problems with GM covering DEF problems in the past but would do everything they could to get it covered. They even said they would contact a regional GM Service Rep on my behalf. They called today and said that it was covered. They tested the fluid and it was good. Turns out it was a bad NOx sensor. It was not the fluid after all but I think I will be keeping better track of where I purchase DEF from.

[ricatic]

As I stood next to the tanker that pumped 7000 gallons of DEF into a 7500 gallon underground storage tank, I asked how long would 7000 gallons last...seemed like a lot of DEF to me...the answer was that this new truck stop was the only one within 100 miles in either direction with DEF at the pump..."won't last long at all" is what the tank truck driver said...

Regards

[FishOnOne]

wintersun wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:
I choose to buy my DEF from containers and prefer to stay away from bulk like at truck stops.

I'm surprised the GM trucks continue to have the contaminated DEF errors that plagued them since the launch of their DEF equipped trucks.

You have it backwards. The DEF at the pumps is going to be days old and it is stored in the ground so it is not subject to heat or sunlight, both of which shorten the life of DEF.

The commercial truck fleet operators love DEF as it keeps the motor oil cleaner (diesels produce soot and this gets into the crankcase) and allows for longer service intervals. Quite different than all the whining by people with pickup trucks.

On my last trip in June I found regular gas stations with DEF at the pumps as well as diesel. With more diesel powered cars more places provide the fuel and DEF at the pumps.

Current Ford and Ram trucks with diesel engines require the use of DEF. Don't want to have to put a gallon of DEF into the tank every 1000 miles then buy a truck with a gas engine instead.

I remember when people *****ed about catalystic converters but most people got over it and most people like having less smog - most people.

I prefer buying DEF in containers because there's a lot less chance of contamination. The packaging is done inside a factory vs. some truck transferring the product outside in all kinds of conditions.

[wintersun]

FishOnOne wrote:
I choose to buy my DEF from containers and prefer to stay away from bulk like at truck stops.

I'm surprised the GM trucks continue to have the contaminated DEF errors that plagued them since the launch of their DEF equipped trucks.

You have it backwards. The DEF at the pumps is going to be days old and it is stored in the ground so it is not subject to heat or sunlight, both of which shorten the life of DEF.

The commercial truck fleet operators love DEF as it keeps the motor oil cleaner (diesels produce soot and this gets into the crankcase) and allows for longer service intervals. Quite different than all the whining by people with pickup trucks.

On my last trip in June I found regular gas stations with DEF at the pumps as well as diesel. With more diesel powered cars more places provide the fuel and DEF at the pumps.

Current Ford and Ram trucks with diesel engines require the use of DEF. Don't want to have to put a gallon of DEF into the tank every 1000 miles then buy a truck with a gas engine instead.

I remember when people *****ed about catalystic converters but most people got over it and most people like having less smog - most people.

[FishOnOne]

BenK wrote:
Rick, if the 3% is correct...totally UNACCEPTABLE for this type/class of product

More so when this class/type of product has life and limb on the line. Not just
the drivers/passengers, but others around them

My back ground is 1st career in industrial controls and 4th in computers. All
of my careers involved potential life and limb for their intended applications

All had AQL (acceptable quality level) in the 0.X% or 0.0X% range

A washer/dryer/toaster/etc 'might' have an AQL of 3%, but that is
another class/type of product... Even the power windows in our TVs
would be 'okay' with a 3% AQL...etc other non-life and limb potential
components/systems in our TV's

Personally thank you for your perseverance and willingness to take
the flake from blind loyalists and TOTALLY agree with your comment that
so many think it only happens to the other guy... :S

The failures were .1% and well within six sigma.

[DavinD]

Here we go again. Sigh

[jjr1314]

Ok so maybe I jumped the gun a little bit with the comment about the engineers screwing up my trucks emissions system. It was done while I was a still a little upset by Dealer #1's story about GM not covering my very expensive warranty fix. Sorry if I offended any of the engineers on this forum. Thanks to Dealer #2 for handling my problem with courtesy and professionalism. Thanks for reading this post and thanks to all of the moderators for the excellent job with this forum. I thoroughly enjoy lurking on here reading all of the posts on the Travel Trailers. Now back to looking at pictures of trucks and trailers and the mods we have done to them.

[BenK]

Rick, if the 3% is correct...totally UNACCEPTABLE for this type/class of product

More so when this class/type of product has life and limb on the line. Not just
the drivers/passengers, but others around them

My back ground is 1st career in industrial controls and 4th in computers. All
of my careers involved potential life and limb for their intended applications

All had AQL (acceptable quality level) in the 0.X% or 0.0X% range

A washer/dryer/toaster/etc 'might' have an AQL of 3%, but that is
another class/type of product... Even the power windows in our TVs
would be 'okay' with a 3% AQL...etc other non-life and limb potential
components/systems in our TV's

Personally thank you for your perseverance and willingness to take
the flake from blind loyalists and TOTALLY agree with your comment that
so many think it only happens to the other guy... :S

[ricatic]

blofgren wrote:

Rick, your story made me look further into the CP4 failure on the Fords and I found several other stories similar to yours where the owners were left with no warranty. This issue played a LARGE part in my decision to leave Ford after 20 years and buy a Ram. So you can count an additional lost sale for Ford with my case. Thank you for your detailed posts on your saga because it saved me from making a huge mistake.

You're welcome...I appreciate your kind words...Your analysis of your risk tolerance and subsequent decision to buy a Ram instead of a Ford is the very part of the discussion that the Blue Koolaid Crowd has difficulty understanding. They love to downplay the 3% failure rate, not a number I have ever provided, as insignificant. I guess it is insignificant as long as it happens to the other guy...

The other significant shortage in their vision is in the "GM has repaired "all" of the Duramax CP4.2 HPFP failures under warranty with no questions asked" statement...Ford's stated company policy on HPFP failures is not customer friendly...and all HPFP repairs must be approved by a FSE...

Good Luck with your Ram...and I will up my confirmed kill count by one...

Mad Norsky wrote:
There was a thread sometime back now about a recall from Ford I believe on bad NOX sensors. Believe it was ambulance packages that got front row on this one, but pertained to the 6.7L diesel.

Directly pertains as I believe it is these same sensors connected to the good verus bad DEF being discussed here.

You are correct...both GM and Ford had DEF related emissions issues in 2011. NOX sensor failures were a big part of the problem. Ford battled through a lot of bad press on the various Ford web boards as they worked through the problem. I struggld with the issue a bit but remained patient...Ford finally ended the issue in April or May 2011...GM had enough issues that they applied for and were granted temporary EPA approval to disable the DEF system until they worked out their bugs...they also solved the problems in mid 2011 and all trucks with disabled DEF systems had to be returned to DEF operations or lose their warranty coverage...

Moving forward to today, the DEF/NOX sensor issues have shrunk to normal warranty repair expectations. There will be failures but because this is emissions related, the manufacturers will have a difficult time denying warranty.

Have a Great Day

Regards

[nevadanick]

I would like to see a proven case of bad DEF. Like i said mine had a problem the first week where it said poor quality DEF and it was the pump inside the tank. They replaced the tank and all is well. It never was poor quality DEF, thats just the msg that appears. In 70k mi mine has had several brands of DEF in it. In our Mercedes they said i could even get away with running distilled water if i was unable to get DEF but would have a check engine light but no limp mode.

[The_Mad_Norsky]

There was a thread sometime back now about a recall from Ford I believe on bad NOX sensors. Believe it was ambulance packages that got front row on this one, but pertained to the 6.7L diesel.

Directly pertains as I believe it is these same sensors connected to the good verus bad DEF being discussed here.

[blofgren]

ricatic wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:

ricatic wrote:

lawnspecialties wrote:

ricatic wrote:
...you sure you didn't take the truck to a Ford dealer by mistake...that kind of treatment is typical Ford style customer dis-service...

Seriously? Let it go.

why...and stifle the truth...my experience is real and valid...just do not want anyone else to ever suffer the tragedy and dishonesty of the terrible Ford Customer Service we received...

Regards

Here's a copy/paste from a Ford diesel tech:

I had a discussion with hotline today (the group that approves/denies these warranty claims) and they said the number of actual failures of fuel system issues from contamination is far less than the issues with the 6.4L. No fuel additives that emulsifies the water in the fuel is an absolute must. Maint records is also a must. They told me in most cases the claims are being done under warranty. The issues I find is the dealers techs that don't like the warranty time that feel they need to make a living off of someone elses hard earned money instead. So they say contaminated and now customer pay. I made a very good living as a tech and I much rather had warranty pay the bill. For one the customer is much happier and the approval is much faster. I would do everything I could to get it covered just to get the job done. There are reports of techs pulling only the primary fuel/water separator bowl down and saying debris and telling the customer they have to pay. That is the point of that bowl is to collect that crap. My advise for any failure that some tech says no warranty is to look and document the rust in the system and pump. Verify that the Hotline also said there is no warranty. Make sure that you are not victim of some hack tech that wants a bigger paycheck from you.

Gloom and Doom...:R

I would agree with most of what you wrote...and quote...but the fact is that in the very end. Ford has the say in what repairs get fixed under warranty...it is their decision...and far to often, they side with bad dealers because they sell a lo of vehicles...I know how it works...I was caught between a crooked dealer, a good and honest dealer and Ford...They sided with the larger crooked dealer and stiffed the customer...Me...Ford had every opportunity and the backing of the honest dealer to do the right thing... they could have kept a lifelong customer of over 50 years...it was more profitable (they thought) to sacrifice one customer than anger a larger dealership...

More importantly to prospective buyers, GM fixes all those pumps in situations where Ford denies...caveat emptor...buy a truck from a manufacturer that will stand behind it...

Those are the facts...as sickening as they are...

...Wearing the Blue Koolaid Protection wetsuit...

Regards

Rick, your story made me look further into the CP4 failure on the Fords and I found several other stories similar to yours where the owners were left with no warranty. This issue played a LARGE part in my decision to leave Ford after 20 years and buy a Ram. So you can count an additional lost sale for Ford with my case. Thank you for your detailed posts on your saga because it saved me from making a huge mistake.

[Sport45]

jjr1314 wrote:
Oh and P.S. I never intended this thread to be a Ford vs GM vs Dodge battle. Just wanted to pass on my recent experience with DEF and what I learned from 2 different dealerships about GM's warranty as it pertains to Duramax emissions control system so others on here would have some info.

You keep talking about problems with DEF, but the issue wasn't DEF. It was a NOX sensor that went bad. The DEF had nothing to do with it.

They system injects DEF into the hot exhaust. The urea in the DEF becomes ammonia in the hot exhaust gas. The ammonia reacts with NOX in the DOC to make nitrogen and water vapor.

The NOX sensor downstream of the DOC monitors NOX and adjusts the DEF flow to control emissions. If it's commanding DEF flow and doesn't see a NOX reduction the computer knows something is wrong and defaults to the "Bad DEF" display. the only way they'd be able to monitor the sensor is by putting more of them in and comparing readings. That's what you do for large stationary engines, boilers, furnaces, etc. It's not a practical or economically reasonable solution for mass produced automotive applications.

I think the engineers did a pretty good job with what they had. It wasn't their idea to force the limp mode. The EPA mandated that. They (the EPA) probably figured it was the only way to ensure compliance with the new emissions regulations. Their goal, after all, is to help keep the air clean. We've gone through this with gas engines and now we're going through it with diesels. Face it, without the limp mode hardly any of the DEF/DOC systems would be fixed after the first issue. Many would not even have the DEF refilled after it first emptied.

[pigman1]

The white crystals you found is the urea that is dissolved in water to make the DEF liquid. If it bothers you, just rinse the area with fresh water, especially after tank filling. Also, if you're concerned about the quality of DEF in the tank or being put into the tank, a DEF refractometer can be purchased on line for about $70. Do a Google search on "DEF refractometer price". They're very easy to use and extremely accurate.

[Bedlam]

It comes down the service department. I have had excellent service from Ford at my local dealer, but there are dealers in my area I would avoid (even if I had to pay a tow charge). I feel the same can be said for Ram and GM dealers although ultimately it is a reflection on the manufacturer. I would like see manufacturers weed out some of the bad dealers, but I can see how economics of cutting off a high volume dealer conflict...

I am also learning about DEF and considering whether my next truck will be diesel or gasoline powered since these emission systems are so much more complicated and expensive.