Diesel vs gas......................

[blt2ski]

OK folks, there have been a few to many diesel vs gas threads that have shall we say gone to "Hell and a hand basket"! So if all of you would put in you BEST, no flaming reasons for going gas vs diesel, pro and con, I will either leave your thread, or copy and paste pertinant info to the 4 posts of pro and con of diesel or gas. This can include the GM 8.1 vs Dmax or Ford V-8/10 vs PSD etc too.

Be real and honest in you answers, not hear say, flaming etc PLEASE!

If posts are good ones, I will leave, if inflamatory or trolling in nature, they will be deleted! I will get this stick'd to the top for future parusing for those that need this type of info.

Added 6-23-04

We are getting closer to answers I am looking for etc.

Stuff like Ken's - T-Bone posts are good. There are a few others of you that have not posted, some with a 9 point question and answer type to figure out how you went with one or the other. If you are one of those, PLEASE repost in this thread. I may have to look up whom has done this and PM you, but if you think this is you, you now know what to do.

Also, for those of you with $ per gallon for either fuel right now, I would prefer to see a post with ...."in my area, diesel is typically .10 less than unleaded" then explain your numbers. As currently in the Seattle area, diesel and unleaded are any where from 2.05 -2.30 per gallon, with mid test .10 more and premium about .20 more, with equal high low splits. Two weeks ago those prices were upwards of .30 -.40 per gallon more. people were posting $ per gallon that were for me. "I wish" If someone is reading your post a year from now, they may want to know where your paying 1.65, when the price of fuel is over $3 per gallon. Let's keep prices out of it if possible.

Bert and tin tipi, got into a good discusion on the pros and cons of RPM's, drive train etc. I would prefer to NOT see the quote of the other in responding threads, maybe just write a quick wording of re tranny gearing, instead of the whole 40 words or so in that paragragh, so the repsonse is shorter if possible quicker and easier to read etc.

I have deleted some 15+/- posts, that were off topic etc. Please note, I am trying to keep this at the top, as the ONLY gas/diesel thread in this area. So if one is trying to decide, we do not have to go thru this BS any more. As such, I will be deleting ANY future posts close to resembling this type of topic. I may have to change "this" title to a better one, if one has a better sounding title, to be more positive, better claification, let me know here, or in a PM/e-mail, what ever you feel most comfortible with.

Again thank you for all of you that are keeping responses positive, etc.

Also we could use a few more positive reasons to go gas, as many can see I have both gas and diesel, both have a place! Both have positive reasons to buy that fuel, lets keep the threads etc to that purpose only!

Marty

[Tarantula]

Bert, That John Deere produced 44 HP at 1000 (one thousand) RPM. How much do you suppose it's putting out at idle, which it is doing on the pull. All torque. Also, it weighed 5900 lbs.

[Jarlaxle]

I've seen a 1300cc engine with 200lb/ft (and that's being generous) lift a car's front wheels.

Of course, it had twin turbos with about 20 pounds of boost, made 500+HP and was being wound to about 11,000RPM. (It was a Wankel rotary in a drag RX7.)

(And, I must point out, it got dusted by a pretty low-tech Rat-powered Monte Carlo SS.) 🙂

[BertP]

Tarantula, here is a post I made a long time ago. It may help you to understand where I and others are coming from:

This is getting down right silly. How about if I provide a few engine examples using 500 HP and axle rpm of 550 as a starting point? We can then figure out what happens with engines of different torque ratings (all engines will be 500 HP).

To start, if we have 500 HP available at the drive axle, we then have 500 * 5252 / 550 = 4775 lb-ft of torque.

Engine type: Diesel
Power: 500 HP@550 rpm
Torque: 500 * 5252 / 550 = 4775 lb-ft
Gear ratio required to obtain 550 rpm: 1:1
Torque output of gear reduction unit: 4775 * 1 = 4775 lb-ft

Engine type: Diesel
Power: 500 HP@1100 rpm
Torque: 500 * 5252 / 1100 = 2387 lb-ft
Gear ratio required to obtain 550 rpm: 2:1
Torque output of gear reduction unit:2387 * 2 = 4774 lb-ft

Engine type: Diesel
Power: 500 HP@2200 rpm
Torque: 500 * 5252 / 2200 = 1193 lb-ft
Gear ratio required to obtain 550 rpm: 4:1
Torque output of gear reduction unit: 1193 * 4 = 4772 lb-ft

Engine type: Gas
Power: 500 HP@4400 rpm
Torque: 500 * 5252 / 4400 = 597 lb-ft
Gear ratio required to obtain 550 rpm: 8:1
Torque output of gear reduction unit: 597 * 8 = 4776 lb-ft

Engine type: Gas
Power: 500 HP@ 5500 rpm
Torque: 500 * 5252 / 5500 = 477.5 lb-ft
Gear ratio required to obtain 550 rpm: 10:1
Torque output of gear reduction unit: 477.5 * 10 = 4775

Engine type: Turbine
Power: 500 HP@30250 rpm
Torque: 500 * 5252 / 30250 = 86.8 lb-ft
Gear ratio required to obtain 550 rpm: 55:1
Torque output of gear reduction unit: 86.8 * 55 = 4774 lb-ft

Is it my imagination or is there a pattern here?

Bert

[BertP]

The thing you seem to keep missing is that it makes absolutely no difference if the engine is turning 200 rpm or 200,000 rpm. If it is producing enough HP to life the front wheels, they will come off the ground. If there isn't enough HP, the front end will stay on the ground. Obviously, the engine turning 200 rpm will produce a lot more torque than the engine turning at 200,000 rpm but if the gearing turns the wheels at the same speed, there will be exactly the same amount of torque at the drive axle if both engines are producing the same HP.

Bert

[Tarantula]

:B This site is kinda dedicated to Bertp and Hannibal that like to debate "torque vs horsepower". Be sure your speakers are on so you can hear that old "Two Popper" do its' thing at 200 RPM. Two Popper

That is pure torque picking the front wheels off the ground.

[RobertRyan]

V10 towing 20,000lbs GCW @ 8mpg average using 5k oil changes for 10,000 total miles
Oil and filter= $16eh= $32net
Fuel $1.50gal average= $1875

Here is some observations from Australia:
Coachmen sells their Mirada and Concord running the V10 using a combination of petrol and LPG stating that fuel consumption is "similar to a 4WD" for the Mirada.
Winnebago only sells diesel powered Motorhomes, their similar sized Longreach only runs on diesel. In fact 85-90% of all Pickups in Australia are diesel powered , some have a LPG direct injection system as well.

[ol_Bombero-JC]

.

[DUO_CORE]

....so to conclude...when pulling big loads...diesel is better....










than electric
lolol

[Hannibal]

Has anyone denied that a diesel would be better for towing 20k lbs through the mountains, would take less fuel and would last longer or that there is no use for a high torque diesel? Please take a quick moment and quote someone's post to that affect. I missed it. Gas guys? Us verses them? I've owned both and I'm sure I'll own both in the future. I've never been one to limit myself on what type or brand of anything I'm allowed to own. I stated that my current Hemi powered Ram out towed my previous standard output Cummins powered Rams on the uphills around the southeast US. That's a fact. It played out on paper and it's proved itself on the interstate and I've enjoyed every mile of it's hot rod music. It does so at 30% higher rpm, at 30% higher fuel consumption, and will be with a shorter engine life. I don't keep a truck too many years, I like the hot rod sound and if I were concerned about fuel economy, I wouldn't be towing a 5th wheel. I'd be driving an econo box as the mileage difference between our trucks isn't enough to make a difference unless you're driving for commercial reasons. My truck is good for up to 10k~lbs around the southeast US, 8K~lbs in the mountains and probably 200k miles of route work and towing. Anything above that and if you'll search my posts, you'll see I've posted numerous times that I'd want another Cummins powered Ram. Never have I said the Hemi would be suitable for 20k lbs. I"ve also posted many many times that most folks would NOT be happy towing with the Hemi for various reasons. If you can find a post of mine to the contrary and quote it, I'll concede. If some of you are wanting me to whine and complain about towing with a Hemi powered HD in order to stroke your diesel ego, it ain't gonna happen. I'm very happy with it. If I weren't, I would have traded it for my 5th Cummins powered Ram long before 103k miles and four years later. So, who'll be first to put words in THIS post that aren't there?:B

[GACamper]

Madhatter1 wrote:
I give up. I hand the argument over to GA camper since he seems most up to speed on this deal (sorry). The thread is gas vs Diesel so readers can figure out which will work best FOR THEIR APPLICATION. While there are many gas trucks capable of pulling heavy loades one must still decide how much, how often, how many $. The gas guys rather than explain why gas works for their applcation works better are trying to say there is no use for a high torque Diesel pulling a heavy load many times over a long distance. So heres my "BS" challenge. Take two similar trucks, hook them to 20K trailers, and see which one can get from NY to CA faster. Rules are do not exceed the speed limit by even 1 MPH. The diesel will win due to less fuel stops and less loss of speed through the mountains. Go ahead and say the gasser will maintain the same speed through the mountains. I will not disagree, but admit it will add 1 more fuel stop to do so.

This is like beating a dead horse....I'm bailing out!

[Ace_]

Madhatter1 wrote:
I give up. I hand the argument over to GA camper since he seems most up to speed on this deal (sorry). The thread is gas vs Diesel so readers can figure out which will work best FOR THEIR APPLICATION. While there are many gas trucks capable of pulling heavy loades one must still decide how much, how often, how many $. The gas guys rather than explain why gas works for their applcation works better are trying to say there is no use for a high torque Diesel pulling a heavy load many times over a long distance. So heres my "BS" challenge. Take two similar trucks, hook them to 20K trailers, and see which one can get from NY to CA faster. Rules are do not exceed the speed limit by even 1 MPH. The diesel will win due to less fuel stops and less loss of speed through the mountains. Go ahead and say the gasser will maintain the same speed through the mountains. I will not disagree, but admit it will add 1 more fuel stop to do so.

There was once a young boy living in small rural town. The boy had a great admiration for his teacher, and one day found out that the teacher was leaving the school. Although he was a poor boy, he wanted more than anything to give his favourite teacher a farewell gift, as a sign of his appreciation. So he took his last few cents from his moneybox and bought a jar. Then he walked for 30 km and stopped at a big heap of sand. He filled the jar with sand and walked back home, 30 km. He walked a full day, there and back. Arriving at home, he rushed, full of excitement, to give the gift to his teacher. The teacher was rather surprised at this strange gift of sand in a bottle, and didn't quite know what to say, but the young boy looked up to him and said "the journey is part of the gift.

[shutdown]

Madhatter1 wrote:
I give up. I hand the argument over to GA camper since he seems most up to speed on this deal (sorry). The thread is gas vs Diesel so readers can figure out which will work best FOR THEIR APPLICATION. While there are many gas trucks capable of pulling heavy loades one must still decide how much, how often, how many $. The gas guys rather than explain why gas works for their applcation works better are trying to say there is no use for a high torque Diesel pulling a heavy load many times over a long distance. So heres my "BS" challenge. Take two similar trucks, hook them to 20K trailers, and see which one can get from NY to CA faster. Rules are do not exceed the speed limit by even 1 MPH. The diesel will win due to less fuel stops and less loss of speed through the mountains. Go ahead and say the gasser will maintain the same speed through the mountains. I will not disagree, but admit it will add 1 more fuel stop to do so.

WRONG! the diesel guy would have to work an extra month to pay for the truck

[Ace_]

Does it make any difference whether the gas or diesel is an inline, a V6, V8, or V10? Will it beat the "other" one to the fuel station, or away from it?

Also, isn't a motor electric and an engine not? And, don't diesels fuel up at fuel stations and gassers fuel up at gas stations?

If the opposite of pro is con, isn't the opposite of progress congress?

Just wondering.

[BertP]

I agree with pretty much everything you say, Bill. I am not arguing against diesels - my own truck is an 05 Chev Silverado 3500 DRW D/A. I am just trying to point out that torque is not what many people seem to think it is. It is not a measure of power. Too often, when you refer to HP, people think that you are referring to max HP at whatever rpm that occurs at. That is simply not true. You need HP to move a load. If you have a high torque engine, that HP will occur at a relatively low rpm. If you have a low torque engine, that HP will occur at a relatively high rpm. The load doesn't give a rat's petootie what rpm the engine is turning. If the HP is present at the wheels, the load will move. If it isn't, it won't move regardless of what kind of engine you have or at what rpm it is turning.

Bert

[dubdub07]

Getting back to the topic, my final thought......as you all are killing me going back and forth saying the SAME thing using different terms.

Gas vs Diesel. The new DMax LMM is the best motor out there right now. It is fast like gas and pulls like a diesel. I opted for a Cummins because it was the best deal at the time. Chevy thinks their trucks are gold plated or something.

I LOVE MY DIESEL! I love the way it sounds and pulls. I love the way the Dodge looks and drives. I love cold mornings when it is nice and loud....clackity, clack. I like turning it off to order mickey Ds. Me, personally, I would never buy a gas HD 3/4 ton or larger truck if it is a work truck. The diesels, by historical accounts (Please, Bert, don't ask me to cite anymore sources, you don't read them anyway) the diesel will last longer if you are pulling a load for an extended amount of time. HP v T should be a new thread. This is about diesel and gas trucks. If you only pull your camper on flat, low altitude roads; gas is good. That was not my choice, but is for some. Some people like bad MPGs and a screaming motor going up a hill. (don't tell me different, I have been there, done that) I have owned 77 cars and 10 trucks.......only one diesel and I must say, the diesel is a pulling machine. If you ask my opinion, and I think this thread is asking it, if you pull over 10K, buy a dually diesel. Everything gets less and less capable from there. 3500 SRW is less stable with less rubber on the road, 2500 diesel has less of a GVWR, 2500 gasser won't pull as well and the 1500s are meant for light duty......IMHO.

I am grabbing my chute and jumping out of this airplane now....it is going down in flames.