Diesel vs gas......................

[blt2ski]

OK folks, there have been a few to many diesel vs gas threads that have shall we say gone to "Hell and a hand basket"! So if all of you would put in you BEST, no flaming reasons for going gas vs diesel, pro and con, I will either leave your thread, or copy and paste pertinant info to the 4 posts of pro and con of diesel or gas. This can include the GM 8.1 vs Dmax or Ford V-8/10 vs PSD etc too.

Be real and honest in you answers, not hear say, flaming etc PLEASE!

If posts are good ones, I will leave, if inflamatory or trolling in nature, they will be deleted! I will get this stick'd to the top for future parusing for those that need this type of info.

Added 6-23-04

We are getting closer to answers I am looking for etc.

Stuff like Ken's - T-Bone posts are good. There are a few others of you that have not posted, some with a 9 point question and answer type to figure out how you went with one or the other. If you are one of those, PLEASE repost in this thread. I may have to look up whom has done this and PM you, but if you think this is you, you now know what to do.

Also, for those of you with $ per gallon for either fuel right now, I would prefer to see a post with ...."in my area, diesel is typically .10 less than unleaded" then explain your numbers. As currently in the Seattle area, diesel and unleaded are any where from 2.05 -2.30 per gallon, with mid test .10 more and premium about .20 more, with equal high low splits. Two weeks ago those prices were upwards of .30 -.40 per gallon more. people were posting $ per gallon that were for me. "I wish" If someone is reading your post a year from now, they may want to know where your paying 1.65, when the price of fuel is over $3 per gallon. Let's keep prices out of it if possible.

Bert and tin tipi, got into a good discusion on the pros and cons of RPM's, drive train etc. I would prefer to NOT see the quote of the other in responding threads, maybe just write a quick wording of re tranny gearing, instead of the whole 40 words or so in that paragragh, so the repsonse is shorter if possible quicker and easier to read etc.

I have deleted some 15+/- posts, that were off topic etc. Please note, I am trying to keep this at the top, as the ONLY gas/diesel thread in this area. So if one is trying to decide, we do not have to go thru this BS any more. As such, I will be deleting ANY future posts close to resembling this type of topic. I may have to change "this" title to a better one, if one has a better sounding title, to be more positive, better claification, let me know here, or in a PM/e-mail, what ever you feel most comfortible with.

Again thank you for all of you that are keeping responses positive, etc.

Also we could use a few more positive reasons to go gas, as many can see I have both gas and diesel, both have a place! Both have positive reasons to buy that fuel, lets keep the threads etc to that purpose only!

Marty

[Taco]

Thats_Ok wrote:

Taco wrote:


you are the one that said. I have a diesel dually. I can tow anything. If you already knew you were wrong why open your mouth.

Is that what I typed?
...or is that what you read?

Why do you want to start something with me?
What did I do to you?

Lets put it this way. Suggest on this site that you want to purchase a drv suites 43 ft 5er (or any other "high end" 5er or large toyhauler) and tow it with your ram 3500 and I bet you dollars to donuts you get told you need to upgrade.

Nothing against you personally it is the diesel truck owners attitude of "I got a diesel engine that makes it just like a big rig I can tow it all"

[deleted-2]

Taco wrote:


you are the one that said. I have a diesel dually. I can tow anything. If you already knew you were wrong why open your mouth.

Is that what I typed?
...or is that what you read?

Why do you want to start something with me?
What did I do to you?

[Taco]

Thats_Ok wrote:

Taco wrote:


There are plenty of 5th wheel rvs outside the manufacturers rated capabilities of your truck.

Ah yeah,

Thanx for setting me straight.
:Z

you are the one that said. I have a diesel dually. I can tow anything. If you already knew you were wrong why open your mouth.

[JIMNLIN]

waynec1957 wrote:
Ok fellas, help me out here.

I'll take a shot at it.
From around '04.5 the Dmax uses a VVT (variable vane turbo) that restricts air through the turbo and acts as a exhaust brake. Programmed with the Allison which keeps the TC clutch locked which stops the slippage in the TC. Early models were called grade braking but were very weak when compared to a actual exhaust brake. The new '10 ?? and up Dmax/A with the VVT uses a very aggressive program and is at the top with the Dodge in turbo exhaust braking.

As far as I know the 6.0 gasser doesn't use or advertise a grade braking feature.
This from a engine braking wiki;
The term engine braking usually refers to the braking effect caused by the closed-throttle partial-vacuum in petrol (gasoline) engines when the accelerator pedal is released. While some of the braking force is due to friction in the drive train, this is negligible compared to the effect from the vacuum.

When the throttle is closed, the air flow to the intake manifold is greatly restricted. The concept can be illustrated by the amount of effort required to blow/suck through a thin tube vs. a thicker one. It is the work the engine has to do against this restricted air flow that provides the braking effect.

Who advertises a smart exhaust brake ?? I've heard of smart brake and a speed brake.

[deleted-2]

Taco wrote:


There are plenty of 5th wheel rvs outside the manufacturers rated capabilities of your truck.

Ah yeah,

Thanx for setting me straight.
:Z

[Taco]

Thats_Ok wrote:
K my turn...

We get a constant 17 mpg or better unladen.
12-14 mpg averaged (8 mpg on long uphill pulls) with 10,000 behind.

One thing about having a 1 ton diesel pickup is: when looking at a new tow behind no one ever says you'll have to upgrade to pull this.

If money allows and I have a choice I'll stay with diesel.

There are plenty of 5th wheel rvs outside the manufacturers rated capabilities of your truck.

[deleted-2]

K my turn...

We get a constant 17 mpg or better unladen.
12-14 mpg averaged (8 mpg on long uphill pulls) with 10,000 behind.

One thing about having a 1 ton diesel pickup is: when looking at a new tow behind no one ever says you'll have to upgrade to pull this.

If money allows and I have a choice I'll stay with diesel.

[Hannibal]

Never heard anyone say "My diesel has too much power" either. You'll never hear anyone say, "My diesel is cheaper to buy, repair and maintain" either. :B

I've towed 10,400 lbs of high profile 5th wheel with both a SO Cummins and Hemi powered Rams. The Cummins towed at 30% lower rpm and about 30% less fuel consumption. They both shifted a lot in the hills and neither had any problems from it. They both shift constantly in town as well. If you tow in the Rockies, the turbo diesel will keep it's horsepower while the NA gas engine will lose 3% for every 1k ft of elevation if I'm remembering the % right. If you simply "want" a diesel, then by all means I think you should have one. Every male human should have at least one. I had six over 21 years before I finally got over it and felt the desire for an engine that could rev again.

By 13,500 lbs loaded, is that actual loaded weight or is that the trailer's GVWR? Better to use the GVWR of the trailer to compare to the truck's GCWR but there could be a lot of difference between empty weight, "your" actual loaded weight and GVWR with animal and cargo trailers. I've gone over my GCWR a few times without any issues down here in the southeast with both gas and diesel. In the mountains or even hilly areas, I would want to keep it under GCWR.

[rcpd34]

chad.holderness wrote:
Hi. This is my first ever post, as it is the first answer I couldn't find. My wife is buying a fifth wheel horse trailer, and im not thinking my half ton HEMI is the best towing option as the trialer is 13500 lb. loaded. With that, she found a real nice Power Ram 2500 q/c 4x4 HEMI. Now, the GCWR is 17000lb, but the actual truck is only rated for 10800lb from factory. This is only 800lb more than my 2010 1500 HEMI is rated. This makes me very concerned with transmissions and whatnot. I want to look for a 2500 or 3500 diesel, but this truck is "pretty" and she really wants it. Is there any way i can increase this towing capacity to avoid a headache with transmissions, or do i put my foot down and look for a diesel? Thanks.

Buy a diesel. Hands down. Get ready for 30 more opinions. "My gasser has too much power" Said no one. Ever.

[chad_holderness]

Hi. This is my first ever post, as it is the first answer I couldn't find. My wife is buying a fifth wheel horse trailer, and im not thinking my half ton HEMI is the best towing option as the trialer is 13500 lb. loaded. With that, she found a real nice Power Ram 2500 q/c 4x4 HEMI. Now, the GCWR is 17000lb, but the actual truck is only rated for 10800lb from factory. This is only 800lb more than my 2010 1500 HEMI is rated. This makes me very concerned with transmissions and whatnot. I want to look for a 2500 or 3500 diesel, but this truck is "pretty" and she really wants it. Is there any way i can increase this towing capacity to avoid a headache with transmissions, or do i put my foot down and look for a diesel? Thanks.

[waynec1957]

Ok fellas, help me out here.

The ¾ ton Silverado 6.0L Vortec gas engine comes with a “6-speed automatic heavy-duty transmission…Electronically controlled Tow/Haul mode and Automatic Grade Braking”.

The ¾ ton Silverado 6.6L Duramax comes with the “Allison 1000 6-speed automatic transmission ….(with) Automatic Grade Braking”.

First of all, is this “Grade Braking” the same thing? Do they both work the same way? Is this the same feature on two different transmissions?

Second, where does the “Smart Exhaust Brake” come into play (I know it’s on the diesel)? I’m assuming this works in in conjunction with the Allison transmission, but is different than the “Grade Braking” feature?

[rhagfo]

bkirkpatrick wrote:
That kind of sums it up it you buy new or near to new. I think someone did a real world calculation many pages ago but I do not have enough bourbon to sit and do that research.

On the other-hand, google made it easy and found a great article from truck-trend. It's from 2002 but talks about the same thing. In summary:
............

Noise/Vibration
Advantage: Gasoline
Despite huge improvements in noise isolation and engine-noise technology in pickup trucks in the past 10 years, diesels are still louder and shake more than their gasoline brothers. However, a recent back-to-back drive in two Ford trucks, one equipped with a 5.4L gas V-8 and the other fitted with a 7.3L diesel V-8, demonstrated that diesels aren't that far behind. At idle, the clatter and shake of the diesel are clearly noticeable, while it's tough to tell if the gas engine is even running. Under low-speed acceleration, the diesel still makes more noise. But once you're up to speed, there's little difference between the two even when accelerating on the highway.

Well 2002 was 10 years ago and yes diesels were a bit noisy, and shook a bit, but it is now 2013 and I challenge you to tell the difference between a diesel and gas engine standing out side next to the hood.
I test drove a 2011, and it was as quite as a gas engine.

Cold Weather
Advantage: Gasoline
Anyone who's tried to start a diesel engine on a cold winter morning knows the winner in this category. Diesels don't have spark plugs like gasoline engines do. The fuel is ignited spontaneously once it's injected into the cylinder that's already under pressure. When it's cold (below 30), the air isn't hot enough to ignite the diesel fuel. To help counter this, today's diesel pickup-truck engines use a computer that senses cylinder temperature and injects the fuel later in the engine rotation. By injecting the fuel when the piston is closer to top dead center, the cylinder is under more pressure and the air inside is hotter, which aids combustion. As an added measure, most modern diesels come equipped with a 110-volt heating element designed to keep the engine block warm when the truck is parked.

I see a lack of knowledge here, GM and Ford use glow plugs to assist cold temp starts. Cummins uses a Grid heater to heat the incoming air, my 12 year old Cummins start just fine in cold easily down to zero or colder.

Exhaust Smell/Emissions
Advantage: Gasoline
Despite petroleum companies best efforts at producing diesel fuel with lower sulfur levels, burned diesel fuel still smells much worse than burned gasoline. Beyond the smelly tailpipe, diesel lags behind gasoline in the areas of oxides of nitrogen (NOx) and particulate matter emissions. It's the particulate matter that causes the black soot seen emanating from diesel-vehicle tailpipes, while NOx is one of the components of smog. The next generation of diesel fuel is generally thought to improve on this situation.

Well this is a matter of opinion, I have both gas an diesel vehicles, really feel the fuel and exhaust of the gasser stinks worst than the diesel.

Short-Term Maintenance
Advantage: Gasoline
Regular maintenance on a diesel is more costly, thanks to several items including the larger volume of oil in the engine and the fact that fuel filters and water separators must be serviced more often. Modern gas engines have an even bigger advantage thanks to extended service intervals on spark plugs, engine oil, and antifreeze.

Depends on the diesel, Cummins doesn't require and special coolant, or additives, Takes twice the oil at a change but will easily go 10,000 miles on a change. Ford maintenance cost are the highest, and GM is a little less.

Long-Term Maintenance and Durability
Advantage: Diesel
The flip side of a diesel-engine's expensive initial cost is its excellent durability. Dodge, Ford, and GM learned long ago they were better off buying diesel technology from experts such as Cummins, International, and Isuzu than spending tons of money developing it themselves. These manufacturers all have years of experience building heavy-duty, over-the-road diesels that have to log 100,000 miles a year for years on end, routinely haul heavy loads and may have to idle for days at a time. Think of the diesel engines found in GM, Ford, and Dodge pickups and SUVs as mini big-rig engines. The average gas engine is good for only around 125,000 miles before needing a rebuild and isn't designed to constantly pull a heavy load. A diesel can go more than three times this amount before needing an overhaul.

Fuel Cost
Advantage: Diesel
Because diesel fuel is easier to refine, taking less time to get from raw petroleum to final product than gasoline, it's usually priced lower than gas. However, occasionally in the U.S., diesel is priced the same or more than regular unleaded gas. This is often because diesel isn't as desirable in some areas leading to higher diesel prices. However, diesel advocates say that if more people drove diesel light trucks and cars, the price would drop dramatically in these areas--and possibly throughout the country.

With the exception of the dead of winter when diesel is driven up along with heating oil, it is normally only 10% more and that is easily made up in difference in mileage.

Fuel Availability
Advantage: Gasoline
The lack of fuel availability is the reason we hear most often why people don't choose a diesel engine. Only about two percent of the nation's cars are diesel powered, compared with 25 percent for European countries such as France and Italy. The number is larger for light trucks and SUVs in the U.S., but the overwhelming majority are gasoline-powered. It's a chicken or the egg scenario. The car manufacturers say they'll build more diesels if people will buy them. Consumers say they'd consider diesels if there were more diesel fuel stations. Fuel companies, in turn, say they'd produce more diesel if consumers wanted it. Diesel pumps are easy to spot (they're the one's with the green handles) and can be found in most areas that have a large amount of commercial truck traffic.

More bad info, diesel is not that hard to find throughout the us. In addition while the Green handle NORMALLY indicates diesel, there are stations in the US where Green is regular Gas (Hess I think).

Conclusion
Choosing between a gas or diesel engine comes down to what you'll do with the truck and where you live. If you use your truck like a car, desire quick, quiet acceleration, rarely haul a heavy load, and you don't plan on keeping it past 100,000 miles, you may want to consider a gas engine. They run smoother, fuel is easier to find, and they're easier to start in cold weather. However, if you use your truck for towing, value good fuel economy, and plan on racking up loads of miles, diesel is for you. In the end, the leading disappointment regarding diesels is that the price to add a diesel to a 3?4- or 1-ton pickup is still quite high versus a more powerful gas engine. But you'll make this back in fuel savings over time. On the flip side, we were pleased to find that manufacturers continue to develop diesel technology, especially in the areas of cold starting, combustion smoothness, and emissions. Now we need diesels in 1?2-ton pickups and midsize SUVs.


Read more: http://www.trucktrend.com/features/tech/163_0210_diesel_vs_gas/viewall.html#ixzz2QUpvjNsk

[64thunderbolt]

How about the longevity of the eng? I'm not one to buy a new one every few years. Being in Az (no rust) I wanted one that could go 1/2 a mil or better. Not going to happen with a gasser going for groceries much less heavy towing.

[bkirkpatrick]

Trucktech wrote:
But, for the money spent, It would take years for me to recoup the extra $$ laid out for the diesel as the MPG are very close versus the price of diesel vs. gasoline.

That kind of sums it up it you buy new or near to new. I think someone did a real world calculation many pages ago but I do not have enough bourbon to sit and do that research.

On the other-hand, google made it easy and found a great article from truck-trend. It's from 2002 but talks about the same thing. In summary:

Fuel Economy
Advantage: Diesel
Diesel fuel has a higher energy density than gasoline. One gallon of diesel contains approximately 147,000 BTUs of energy, while a gallon of gasoline only has 125,000 BTUs. This means it takes more gasoline to equal the power output of diesel, making diesel engines more efficient per gallon of fuel burned. Also, because diesel engines use the more efficient direct fuel-injection method (fuel injected directly into cylinder) compared to the port fuel-injection setup in gas engines where gas is mixed with incoming air in the intake manifold, the diesel system has little wasted or unburned fuel. Diesels also use about one third as much fuel at idle as gasoline units. Even though there are no official EPA-mileage figures for 3?4-ton and bigger trucks, we've seen diesels get six to eight more mpg than similar-weight gas pickups. Over the life of the truck, this advantage could be significant, especially if you drive a lot of miles.

Initial Cost
Advantage: Gasoline
Because of the high-compression ratios and resulting high cylinder pressure in diesel engines, they must be built to withstand more punishment than gas engines. Beefed-up parts include a thicker block and cylinder heads and stronger connecting rods, pistons, crankshaft, and valves. These parts can be costly. As an example, if you want to upgrade an '02 F-250 from the standard 5.4L V-8 to the 7.3L turbodiesel V-8, you're going to spend around $4800. However, to go from the 5.4L to the 6.8L V-10 gasoline engine, the price is a more manageable $600. Another diesel disadvantage that comes as a byproduct of needing heavy-duty components is increased weight. A diesel engine can weigh several hundred pounds more than a comparable gas model.

Noise/Vibration
Advantage: Gasoline
Despite huge improvements in noise isolation and engine-noise technology in pickup trucks in the past 10 years, diesels are still louder and shake more than their gasoline brothers. However, a recent back-to-back drive in two Ford trucks, one equipped with a 5.4L gas V-8 and the other fitted with a 7.3L diesel V-8, demonstrated that diesels aren't that far behind. At idle, the clatter and shake of the diesel are clearly noticeable, while it's tough to tell if the gas engine is even running. Under low-speed acceleration, the diesel still makes more noise. But once you're up to speed, there's little difference between the two even when accelerating on the highway.

Cold Weather
Advantage: Gasoline
Anyone who's tried to start a diesel engine on a cold winter morning knows the winner in this category. Diesels don't have spark plugs like gasoline engines do. The fuel is ignited spontaneously once it's injected into the cylinder that's already under pressure. When it's cold (below 30), the air isn't hot enough to ignite the diesel fuel. To help counter this, today's diesel pickup-truck engines use a computer that senses cylinder temperature and injects the fuel later in the engine rotation. By injecting the fuel when the piston is closer to top dead center, the cylinder is under more pressure and the air inside is hotter, which aids combustion. As an added measure, most modern diesels come equipped with a 110-volt heating element designed to keep the engine block warm when the truck is parked.

Exhaust Smell/Emissions
Advantage: Gasoline
Despite petroleum companies best efforts at producing diesel fuel with lower sulfur levels, burned diesel fuel still smells much worse than burned gasoline. Beyond the smelly tailpipe, diesel lags behind gasoline in the areas of oxides of nitrogen (NOx) and particulate matter emissions. It's the particulate matter that causes the black soot seen emanating from diesel-vehicle tailpipes, while NOx is one of the components of smog. The next generation of diesel fuel is generally thought to improve on this situation.

Short-Term Maintenance
Advantage: Gasoline
Regular maintenance on a diesel is more costly, thanks to several items including the larger volume of oil in the engine and the fact that fuel filters and water separators must be serviced more often. Modern gas engines have an even bigger advantage thanks to extended service intervals on spark plugs, engine oil, and antifreeze.

Long-Term Maintenance and Durability
Advantage: Diesel
The flip side of a diesel-engine's expensive initial cost is its excellent durability. Dodge, Ford, and GM learned long ago they were better off buying diesel technology from experts such as Cummins, International, and Isuzu than spending tons of money developing it themselves. These manufacturers all have years of experience building heavy-duty, over-the-road diesels that have to log 100,000 miles a year for years on end, routinely haul heavy loads and may have to idle for days at a time. Think of the diesel engines found in GM, Ford, and Dodge pickups and SUVs as mini big-rig engines. The average gas engine is good for only around 125,000 miles before needing a rebuild and isn't designed to constantly pull a heavy load. A diesel can go more than three times this amount before needing an overhaul.

Fuel Cost
Advantage: Diesel
Because diesel fuel is easier to refine, taking less time to get from raw petroleum to final product than gasoline, it's usually priced lower than gas. However, occasionally in the U.S., diesel is priced the same or more than regular unleaded gas. This is often because diesel isn't as desirable in some areas leading to higher diesel prices. However, diesel advocates say that if more people drove diesel light trucks and cars, the price would drop dramatically in these areas--and possibly throughout the country.

Fuel Availability
Advantage: Gasoline
The lack of fuel availability is the reason we hear most often why people don't choose a diesel engine. Only about two percent of the nation's cars are diesel powered, compared with 25 percent for European countries such as France and Italy. The number is larger for light trucks and SUVs in the U.S., but the overwhelming majority are gasoline-powered. It's a chicken or the egg scenario. The car manufacturers say they'll build more diesels if people will buy them. Consumers say they'd consider diesels if there were more diesel fuel stations. Fuel companies, in turn, say they'd produce more diesel if consumers wanted it. Diesel pumps are easy to spot (they're the one's with the green handles) and can be found in most areas that have a large amount of commercial truck traffic.

Conclusion
Choosing between a gas or diesel engine comes down to what you'll do with the truck and where you live. If you use your truck like a car, desire quick, quiet acceleration, rarely haul a heavy load, and you don't plan on keeping it past 100,000 miles, you may want to consider a gas engine. They run smoother, fuel is easier to find, and they're easier to start in cold weather. However, if you use your truck for towing, value good fuel economy, and plan on racking up loads of miles, diesel is for you. In the end, the leading disappointment regarding diesels is that the price to add a diesel to a 3?4- or 1-ton pickup is still quite high versus a more powerful gas engine. But you'll make this back in fuel savings over time. On the flip side, we were pleased to find that manufacturers continue to develop diesel technology, especially in the areas of cold starting, combustion smoothness, and emissions. Now we need diesels in 1?2-ton pickups and midsize SUVs.

Read more: http://www.trucktrend.com/features/tech/163_0210_diesel_vs_gas/viewall.html#ixzz2QUpvjNsk

[Trucktech]

Here's my .02 worth. My personal tow vehicle is a 2005 Chevrolet Silverado, CC, 4x4 Dooley with the 8.1/Allison. My 5er weighs in at 13,000lbs. I get a consistent 7.5mpg no matter what I do. It's a bigblock gas engine and I expect the mpg as it is. No complaints.

I run a fleet of over 350 different vehicles. My company vehicle is a 2008 Ford Super Duty CC, 4x4 Dooley, 6.4 diesel, loaded. Nice truck, as I happen to like both Ford and GM products, so I'm not biased here. From time to time I pull a 9000lb trailer with this Ford and it gets 8.4mpg no matter how I drive it.

A close friend of mine has a 2005 Silverado Dmax/Allison and he does no better than 9mpg while towing his toy hauler.

I will say, my bigblock gas engine "drags" the trailer as the diesel "pulls" the trailer, up hill. The diesel has more torque as we all know. But, for the money spent, It would take years for me to recoup the extra $$ laid out for the diesel as the MPG are very close versus the price of diesel vs. gasoline.

FWIW, I will drive the guts out of what's under my right foot. If Ford or GM did not want the accelerator pedal to go to the floor, it wouldn't have been designed that way. 😉