F350 payload dispute

[bighog01]

New F350 SRW that I'm considering says 3326 lbs on the payload sticker with a 11500 GVWR. I asked for this info before the dealer had it brought in from another dealer. Salesperson and fleet manager say that its actually 4164 lbs because the factory invoice says the trucks shipping weight is 7336 lbs. Now I'm sure that's weighed with minimal diesel I. The tank. Isn't the door sticker the law? I always thought so. I'm not obligated to buy this truck and I have no deposit on it. Right now I'm not feeling comfortable hitching my Fuzion to it.

[blt2ski]

Shiner,

MANY mdt/hdt's do not even have a factory door sticker in them. Mine doesn't! Its in the owner manual in my office......Being as most of these are sold as incomplete rigs, the door sticker means squat! Especially if one adds a drop, tag axel, wider tires, for more weight carrying capacity! Its then up to the end body builder to install a "CORRECT" door sticker. Even at that, it is legal to add these things later in like, up or lower the GVWR, etc.

From an RV standpoint, ANY if not most of the type a or c motor homes that have tag axels, I would suspect NONE of those axels were installed by the frame, motor chassis builder, or in the case of a C, the van body/chassis builder. ALL after market, a new gvw tag installed by the RV manufacture.

Marty

[ShinerBock]

I wonder if these guys are under GVWR? :B

How they tow a car !

[blt2ski]

CWSWine wrote:
Manufacturer Towing Capacity

Vehicle manufacturers designate a number of capacity limits; Payload, (total weight the vehicle can carry in the bed of a truck or in the interior of a vehicle), Gross vehicle weight rating , (total weight of vehicle , passengers and cargo), tongue weight (total weight applied to the vehicle’s hitch), and Towing capacity, (with and without weight distribution). Understanding the difference between “weight-carrying” and “weight-distributing” maximum towing capacities is essential; a “weight distributing” maximum is the most you can tow with an appropriate weight distribution hitch. “Weight Carrying” maximum load is is the most you can carry without a weight distribution hitch. A Weight distribution hitch is

)recommended

when the trailer you are towing exceeds 40% of the vehicles weight.

Towing in excess of the vehicle manufacturer’s weight limits could not only prove dangerous, but could even be considered negligent. In the event of an accident with an overweight personal vehicle, you could be held responsible for higher awards in a lawsuit for damages to other people, vehicles or property.

Personal Vehicle Towing Liability for RV’ers

Note recommended! MANY vehicles run down the road from a few thousand total lbs, to into the hundred thousand lb range with out weight distribution. With out anti sway bars!

There is a poster on here that killed a person in an accident, truck was at gvwr of 10K, trailer weight 20K, 30K total, GCWR for truck was 20K lbs. Dead persons insurance and family sued him for damages. Jury awarded the live driver of the truck damages, ie his attorneys fees! Why you ask? the dead guy pulled out in front of the truck with no ability for the truck to stop. T-boned the dead guy! Attorney for the truck driver, found ALL kinds of citations to show that manufactures ratings are not legal law!

Road max limits go back in the US before we were a nation! ie wagon roads! My states laws still have wagon roads mentioned from some of the laws! Some of this you will be fighting a LONG road!

marty

[blt2ski]

TomG2 wrote:

blt2ski wrote:

I was asked to build an engineered design wall of concrete blocks.
Marty

I built an engineered concrete block retaining wall at Lincoln's Tomb in Springfield, Illinois. 15,000 blocks, 12,000 tons of sand backfill. I built it per Illinois Department of Transportation (IDOT) design and specs. We make a pot full of money and it looks great twenty two years later.

Bituminous asphalt concrete, commonly called asphalt is not usually designed only for compressive strength. Portland Cement Concrete, often called simply cement, is designed for many qualities including compressive and flexural strenth. Asphalt is the bituminous material that binds the hot mix asphalt (HMA) together while Portland cement is what binds the aggregates together in concrete. Both have their place in modern pavement designs. Nothing to do with trucks but I felt like some more educating might be in order. Have fun with that my haters.

Actually Tom,

These materials DO have something to do with truck design! As I have stated MANY times, we drive our trucks on these materials, they will wear based on how heavy our trucks are. As such, roads need to be designed accordingly to handle the wear and tear on them. If we used my example earlier, a million lbs on a 10" wide tire! It would cut thru the asphalt, along with concrete like a pizza cutter in a cooked pizza! Hence why police enforce that design limit, not the Ford engineer limits!

DOT spec on a wall.....yep, built those too. Including the one with the engineer spec that had no geo grid, 6' tall, with top to blocks filled with concrete to hold the poles for a guard rail and rebar to hold the 5' wide concret sidewalk literally on top of it. at the 6' mark behind this wall, was asphalt, and where some of out local double length 50K lb metro buses parked as this was the beginning end of a route. Did I mention NO geo grid in the wall!?!?!?
built on a 1-1 slope, base soil is a silty clay loam. No pipe at bottom for drainage, and 6" of crushed clear rock behind it! No geogrid designed into the wall too!
How long do you the engineer think this wall would last? me the contractor with a basic landscape design degree and a build certification from the wall block manufacture knew this wall was in trouble before it was built! Went to builder/developer and said you're screwed if you build a wall like this. Went to the city of Bellevue, they agreed that said wall was a basic 6' tall, flat top, flat base, no design factor for active and inactive loads above and behind the wall.
I'm not an engineer, but I do have some brains to know, not ALL design engineer architect designed things are always correct for the end result of what someone wants to do.
Also why, I will not follow the new tow specs. 12% minimum grade in low gear at max GCWR! I needed to go up an 18% grade to get to where this wall I described above was built at! I may not have gotten there at full load pulling a trailer, a load in the truck etc.....BUT! I'm under design spec weight wise! OH, I did not look up the 12% max grade at that weight! OOPS!

same as the concret pavers I have installed. If it is a walk way, I can use 4" of crushed rock below the pavers, If a lighter car truck driveway, 6-8", maybe as much as a 12" rock base. If these heavy metro buses are in the mix. 24-36" of compacted crushed rock is needed......

I'll assume you may know these types of specs if you work in this environment. More than likely, more than me! I know enough to get me in trouble, not enough to get out! Hence why I hire the correct design engineers to make sure I build this stuff correctly! I usually need a structural and soils engineers at a minimum for some sites.

Many ways to look at things, as you should know!

Marty

[ShinerBock]

blt2ski wrote:


As noted.by many, if you.have to ask, use door stickers! Even at that, how many have bought Per door sticker, only to find out the door sticker was not it was cracked up to be! Been there done that! Very expensive mistake. I can name a.few posters.that followed.The " you'll be fine mantra" you're under rating, I've said BS! Guess who was correct?

I've been there too. Even got the t-shirt and hat. Back in my early days in the medium and heavy duty industry I religiously followed all specs. Then after working for few of the manufacturers and learning what limits some of the specs of these trucks, I started to loosen up on following certain ratings because I found out which ones really mattered. I also found out that not all trucks or truck classes are the same and some probably need to be loaded under their sticker while others can safely handle way more.

When I started at the dealership level, I used to spec the trucks up for our customers. A customer would come in to order a truck or a whole fleet and I would help them design the truck to fit their application from the engine all the way to the back axles. Most of the larger fleet customers didn't really need my help since they had more experience than I did with their application. They were more comfortable going over certain specs since they had hundreds of trucks worth of experience with it. The one truck or small fleet customers were very wary of it and overspeced their truck because of it which made it more costly up front and with parts in the long run.

The short of is that people learn from experience and as you(and I) already stated "If you have to ask then go by the sticker". Although, I think some of the "per spec" people would probably **** their pants if they knew how may medium and heavy duty trucks were driving around them every day that are over their factory GVWR and/or payload sticker.

[CWSWine]

If you tow beyond the manufacturer’s limits you are treading on very thin legal ice. Understanding your responsibilities differences is critical if you intend to tow in a safe and prudent manner. Towing beyond any vehicle’s manufacturer’s weight ratings-or without regard to the properly equipped limitations a vehicle’s manufacturer places on the towing vehicle relates directly to the law of negligence and places may expose you to liability.

http://www.randolphwolf.com/blog/towing-liability-for-overweight-loads/

[CWSWine]

Manufacturer Towing Capacity

Vehicle manufacturers designate a number of capacity limits; Payload, (total weight the vehicle can carry in the bed of a truck or in the interior of a vehicle), Gross vehicle weight rating , (total weight of vehicle , passengers and cargo), tongue weight (total weight applied to the vehicle’s hitch), and Towing capacity, (with and without weight distribution). Understanding the difference between “weight-carrying” and “weight-distributing” maximum towing capacities is essential; a “weight distributing” maximum is the most you can tow with an appropriate weight distribution hitch. “Weight Carrying” maximum load is is the most you can carry without a weight distribution hitch.A Weight distribution hitch is recommended when the trailer you are towing exceeds 40% of the vehicles weight.

Towing in excess of the vehicle manufacturer’s weight limits could not only prove dangerous, but could even be considered negligent. In the event of an accident with an overweight personal vehicle, you could be held responsible for higher awards in a lawsuit for damages to other people, vehicles or property.

Personal Vehicle Towing Liability for RV’ers

[TomG2]

blt2ski wrote:

I was asked to build an engineered design wall of concrete blocks.
Marty

I built an engineered concrete block retaining wall at Lincoln's Tomb in Springfield, Illinois. 15,000 blocks, 12,000 tons of sand backfill. I built it per Illinois Department of Transportation (IDOT) design and specs. We make a pot full of money and it looks great twenty two years later.

Bituminous asphalt concrete, commonly called asphalt is not usually designed only for compressive strength. Portland Cement Concrete, often called simply cement, is designed for many qualities including compressive and flexural strenth. Asphalt is the bituminous material that binds the hot mix asphalt (HMA) together while Portland cement is what binds the aggregates together in concrete. Both have their place in modern pavement designs. Nothing to do with trucks but I felt like some more educating might be in order. Have fun with that my haters.

[TomG2]

Sorry to upset you folks. I like plenty of safety factor in my tow vehicles and I will let Ford set my limits. Too conservative? Maybe, but I am old and lazy. For those who don't think Ford knows what they are doing. Go for it. Not my dime.

[blt2ski]

Tom,

You are talking about working for asphalt company. How many lbs per square ft can.asphalt handle, before it gets torn apart? THAT is the engineer spec that police enforce! Not the Ford, GM, Mack, Peterbuilt engineer design vehicle ratings. Hence my comment, engineer ratings be danged!
Many.of.these vehicles.have specs greater capacities than the road bed capacities. Again, law states the road bed capacity gets enforced, not vehicle design capacities. That is what you have to wrap your brain around!
I was asked to build an engineered design wall of concrete blocks. I took one look at engineer's signed spec, self, this is designed incorrectly! Found manufactures.spec, that met environmental spec that better matched what was really going on. Got city to sign off on MY spec. I've also had wall projects go other way. My initial design was not strong enough. Engineer came in, said do it this way, I built it that way.

As noted.by many, if you.have to ask, use door stickers! Even at that, how many have bought Per door sticker, only to find out the door sticker was not it was cracked up to be! Been there done that! Very expensive mistake. I can name a.few posters.that followed.The " you'll be fine mantra" you're under rating, I've said BS! Guess who was correct?

Need to quit typing on stupid droid auto correct phone!
Marty

[transamz9]

ShinerBock wrote:

TomG2 wrote:


Nobody has been proven "Wrong". We have different ideas of what purpose this forum best serves and what ratings to follow for people wanting a safe reliable tow vehicle.Don't know what your problem is with me. Very easy to block if you don't want to hear other's opinions.

And again, he was giving multiple examples of various ways one can be legal and not legal due to how the laws are. Lawful limits and manufacturers limits are two different things and he was trying to tell you that. Not once did he tell anyone here to load their vehicle up with 10k lbs or whatever story you keep regurgitating.

I have read what he stated multiple times and I don't think I am alone in thinking that what he said was completely different than the way you seem to be taking it which means there is a comprehension problem with how you are interpreting it, not with how he is saying it.

Save you breath bud. He's already stated that he is an engineer and every one that I have ever worded with will argue with you till they're blue in the face when you prove to them there is are more ways of doing things than their way.

[ShinerBock]

TomG2 wrote:


Nobody has been proven "Wrong". We have different ideas of what purpose this forum best serves and what ratings to follow for people wanting a safe reliable tow vehicle.Don't know what your problem is with me. Very easy to block if you don't want to hear other's opinions.

And again, he was giving multiple examples of various ways one can be legal and not legal due to how the laws are. Lawful limits and manufacturers limits are two different things and he was trying to tell you that. Not once did he tell anyone here to load their vehicle up with 10k lbs or whatever story you keep regurgitating.

I have read what he stated multiple times and I don't think I am alone in thinking that what he said is completely different than the way you seem to be taking it which means there is a comprehension problem with how you are interpreting it, not with how he is saying it.

[TomG2]

ShinerBock wrote:

You are purposely bringing up the "moderator" word out of spite and revenge for Marty proving you wrong. Instead of just accepting, learning from it, and moving on, you are doubling down with vindictive comments. So yeah, I know what it means.

Nobody has been proven "Wrong". We have different ideas of what purpose this forum best serves and what ratings to follow for people wanting a safe reliable tow vehicle. Don't know what your problem is with me. Very easy to block if you don't want to hear other's opinions.

[TomG2]

Apparently, I have poked somebody's balloon. "IF" I was the moderator on a forum such as this, I would be careful to give well documented advice. None of this, "I did such and such and got by with it" stuff.

When a new guy buys a trailer and comes to RVnet for Tow Vehicle advice, should he be told that manufacturer's ratings are worthless? Is that good for the new guy? I realize that the forum is mostly populated by experienced experts, but I think about that new guy who just wants a safe reliable towing machine without considering tire, suspension, or ratings upgrades. What number will work for him? Not "what might work for him". Take your choice.