How rigid is payload number

[TheGreatWaz00]

OK the Mrs and I have chosen a TT, Rockwood 8311SS. It is within my tow limit, the question I have is the payload number. How critical is it to be below your payload number?

I have a Ram 1500, with a payload rating of 1266. I have 800# of passenger and gasoline. The Hitch weight is 746 for the TT so I would have a payload of 1546 - basically 300# over the rated 1266 number.

??

[LarryJM]

Ron Gratz wrote:


IMO, anyone who questions the importance of GVWR (or any other rating) should read Trailer Towing Illegally.


Ron

Ron,

Excellent article and confirms the salient points I keep trying to make in these discussions by ACTUAL ATTORNEYS. Folk keep trying to refer to "internet lawyers" and want reference to cases listed on the internet, but the fact remains that ignoring such things as GVWR and hitch/safety related requirements for trailer towing exposes one to POTENTIAL LIFE CHANGING risks. I wonder if these doubters take the same risks by not carrying fire or theft insurance on their homes or even comprehensive auto insurance or say collision and liability in excess of the min required in their states. IMO it boils down to risk exposure and how much you are will to accept and for me it is just too simple to remove that with the proper choice in either a TV or a TT.

Larry

[JIMNLIN]

spoon wrote:
Larry, I think you are right and I misspoke. FMVSS standards (I googled them) are for crash safety and crash avoidance. It has NOTHING to do with GVWR or axle ratings.

I forget what standard applies to vehicles to determine ratings. For some reason I thought FMVSS determined that.

Lots of opinions what the FMVSS says but this is a paste and copy from;
49 CFR
571.105 Standard No. 105; Hydraulic and electric brake systems.

S6.1 Vehicle weight.

S6.1.1 Other than tests specified at lightly loaded vehicle weight in S7.5(a), S7.7, S7.8, and S7.9, the vehicle is loaded to its GVWR such that the weight on each axle as measured at the tire-ground interface is in proportion to its GAWR, except that each fuel tank is filled to any level from 100 percent of capacity (corresponding to full GVWR) to 75 percent. However, if the weight on any axle of a vehicle at lightly loaded vehicle weight exceeds the axle's proportional share of the gross vehicle weight rating, the load required to reach GVWR is placed so that the weight on that axle remains the same as a lightly loaded vehicle weight."

GVWR and the GAWRs are mentioned in this brake test.
.......................................................

Also the truck GVWR and FAWR/RAWR are required for the truck makers to affix with a certification placard on the door post per;

49 cfr 567.4 Requirements for manufacturers of motor vehicles.

(a) Each manufacturer of motor vehicles (except vehicles manufactured in two or more stages) shall affix to each vehicle a label, of the type and in the manner described below, containing the statements specified in paragraph (g) of this section.

(b) The label shall be riveted or permanently affixed in such a manner that it cannot be removed without destroying or defacing it.

(snipped for length)

(3) “Gross Vehicle Weight Rating” or “GVWR” followed by the appropriate value in pounds, which shall not be less than the sum of the unloaded vehicle weight, rated cargo load, and 150 pounds times the number of the vehicle's designated seating positions.

(snipped)

(4) “Gross Axle Weight Rating” or “GAWR,” followed by the appropriate value in pounds, for each axle, identified in order from front to rear (e.g., front, first intermediate, second intermediate, rear).
..............................................

Keep in mind the truck maker may choose the trucks GVWR up to the sum of the certified GAWRs.
And brakes are a function of the trucks FAWR and RAWR but have to pass the minimum test at the trucks GVWR in proportion to its GAWRs.
Add your trucks fawr and rawr will be the brakes total lbs of brake performance.

Thats one reason some weight regulations may read like this one. I'm posting this as a reference to the vehicles brakes = the GAWRs and not to start a weights argument;

(snipped for length)
1. A person must not, without an overload permit, drive or operate on a highway a vehicle loaded or configured so that

(a) the gross weight on an axle exceeds the manufacturer's rated capacity for that axle or for the brake or suspension system with which the axle is equipped, ...........

[blt2ski]

Ron,

Civil liability can hit you under the manufacture ratings also.

Some states like where I live, do not recognize the manufacture ratings when it comes to what an officer will do in an accident or equal pull over.

As I also stated for the OP, In there case. I would not pull said trailer with that truck.

Where one wishes to go with the civil part, is up to them. Civil has a lot of gray in the how one will be found to be guilty. Look at the OJ case, guilty in civil, not guilty in the legal. The guilty standard is way lower in a civil case than legal case too.

I know all about the civil types too. In some cases like my wife a few years back. She was sued. Insurance knew she was not guilty, but still settled for .5mil to the accuser. Accuser on the other hand, was later found VERY guilty of some IRS issues that pretty much took what she got from spouses insurance, and a quite a bit more! BenK can also tell us what happens in civil cases too, even when not guilty!

Marty

[Ron_Gratz]

blt2ski wrote:
I drive over the gvwr without issues, ---

Marty, just because you drive over the gvwr without issues, doesn't mean that everyone can do the same.

IMO, there's more to consider than just whether an officer might give you an overweight ticket.
There's also civil liability considerations.

IMO, anyone who questions the importance of GVWR (or any other rating) should read Trailer Towing Illegally.

Although being above GVWR might not be above "legal capacity" --
it might be construed as the vehicle "being used to tow something it was not designed to tow".

I would not want to find myself being the defendant in an accident lawsuit where my vehicle was being used to carry load in excess of the manufacturer's specifications.
And, I wouldn't want my attorney to be in the position of having to convince a civil jury that it was okay to exceed the GVWR as long as I didn't exceed the rear GAWR.

Others might be willing to accept more risk than I am.

Ron

[kaydeejay]

spoon059 wrote:
Larry, I think you are right and I misspoke. FMVSS standards (I googled them) are for crash safety and crash avoidance. It has NOTHING to do with GVWR or axle ratings.

There are over 200 FMVSS regulations. They cover everything from lighting, to crashworthiness, to braking.
Brake and crash tests are conducted at GVWR, which is why the label on your door says "This vehicle complies with all Emission and safety standards on the date of manufacture". That same label contains the GVWR and axle ratings.
The Manufacturer has certified that the vehicle meets the standards AT GVWR. The performance of safety systems above GVWR are a no-mans land and no Manufacturer will attest that it is OK to exceed the GVWR at any time.

[BulldawgFan]

You could save yourself another 150 lbs or so by getting a divorce. On second thought, it would probably be cheaper to just upgrade the truck!

[dfm]

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"""Besides the safety aspect being way over our neighbours to the west in British Columbia set up portable scales from time to time to weigh peoples trailers. If you are over they give you a ticket and tell you to park it and not move it until either you lighten it up to standards or get another truck to take it away for you. Many have been seen on the side of the road. Would not make for a fun trip or vacation. """



Not saying it has never happened, BUT In 35 years I have "Never" seen an RV trailer being weighed by the CVS in British Columbia. They do have regular road weight checks for commercial transports and contractor trailers. They frequently have the weight check and inspection station about a 1/2 mile from my home and I can see every vehicle they stop from my back deck.

[blt2ski]

I drive over the gvwr without issues, I do try to stay under the axel load limits, which are usually higher by 1-15% of the gvwr. even did it with my family of 6 on board the crew cab I had. GCWR is a performance rating only, really no safety per say. look at the new SAE specs to verify.

As far as actual LEO regs go, most as someone pointed out, do not care about the manufacture rating, as that is usually not the law they have to follow. Been pulled over numerous times over a manufacture limit, no overweight tickets.

For the OP's case, I personally would not want to tow the trailer with the rig in question. This will be over any of my personal safety rules of thumb I follow. An 8 lug 25 or 35 series truck should be used. Same drive train would be ok, but I want a stronger chassis to handle the trailer.

Marty

[APT]

NHTSA says no people, no driver including in the Tire and Loading sticker. Look for "Steps for Determining Correct Load Limit".

GVWR is a loaded weight in which the vehicle manufacturer provides to NHTSA that will pass various FMVSS standardized tests.

[spoon059]

APT wrote:
Payload per the tire and loading sticker includes all fluids such as a full tank of fuel. No driver or other passengers, though.

Payload calculations from the manufacturer include a pre-set weight for a driver... I think its 150 lbs.

You are thinking of CURB weight, which is the weight of the truck with gas and oil, nothing else.

[spoon059]

Larry, I think you are right and I misspoke. FMVSS standards (I googled them) are for crash safety and crash avoidance. It has NOTHING to do with GVWR or axle ratings.

I forget what standard applies to vehicles to determine ratings. For some reason I thought FMVSS determined that.

The only thing applicable to this argument in FMVSS is rule 110 about weight rating of tires and rims. Interestingly enough, vehicles rated over 10,000 lbs aren't bound to these standards. It states that for vehicles under 10,000 lbs that use "car tires" can only be rated for 90% of the combined tire rating. That helps lead towards Toyota rating my axles at 8250 lbs... which is roughly 90% of the combined weight rating of the stock OEM crappy car tires that come on a stock Tundra.

I'm not an engineer, I don't deal with FMVSS ratings on a daily basis.

I still don't think that you have any supporting documents for your argument. I don't really need to see any, because I think that it is a moot point in this case. I think the OP will find himself over his payload by a larger margin than he anticipated and will find the find unacceptable. While I really believe there is some wiggle room in those numbers, I don't encourage people to drive over their ratings AND I think that the OP's numbers will be too far over his ratings for comfort.

[APT]

Payload per the tire and loading sticker includes all fluids such as a full tank of fuel. No driver or other passengers, though.

IMHO, TW will be more like 1000 pounds. No one tows a dry weight RV.

There is a wide range of opinion on exceeding GVWR. Lots of people do it. My opinions is that exceeding by a little is okay. But I think you will be more like 800-1000 pounds over GVWR with that proposed combo. People in the cab, a bed full of camping gear, and TW. People tend to underestimate weights.

[Community Alumni]

TomG2 wrote:
The manufacturer says that I can haul 4 passengers in my vehicle, but I could probably cram in 8 if I really tried. Don't you think they know something about a vehicle's capacity, including its gvwr?

Manufactures obviously know nothing about vehicle capacities lol.

[LarryJM]

spoon059 wrote:

LarryJM wrote:
For me I'll treat the FMVSS certified safety limit as a hard one since insuring one is under it is not that hard.

Larry

FYI, the FMVSS rating for my axles in the Tundra is over 8300 lbs with stock P rated tires. I'm not sure what the rating is with my OEM E rated tires, but its likely even higher than 8300 lbs. That being said, Toyota REQUESTS that I keep my GVWR to under 7200 lbs. According to YOUR logic (FMVSS safety limits are the hard and fast rule), then I have an additional 1100 lbs of payload.

Payload ratings from manufacturers are required to be at or under FMVSS ratings, but they are numbers assigned by individual manufacturers with little to no oversight... so long as they are at or under FMVSS ratings. Toyota chose to be conservative and de-rate the Tundra by 1150 lbs or so. They did that to reduce wear and tear, reduce warranty issues and increase the duty cycle of the truck.

I understand the point of your argument, but your supporting documents don't correspond with your argument.

You don't understand how those GVWR #s that are on the certifictions work. While the manufacturers set the GVWR # they are required to hire and pay for a separate contract for independent testing to meet the FMVSS standards. They also have to provide the vehicles for testing. Those test results go directly to the COTR which is the government representative and the contract specficially PROHIBITS the contractor from even sharing the results w/o the COTRs written approval with the manufacturer. Thus there is complete oversight to ensure that whatever the GVWR assigned by the manufacturer meets the government set standards as set forth in FMVSS. There are no tests for the GAWRs as you mistakenly believe, but they are used in the FMVSS testing to determine the specific loading on each AXLE under various conditions to meet the GVWR number. Thus that certifcation label as far as braking is concerned is only applied against the GVWR so you 8200lb number has no meaning as to any safety related FMVSS certification as you seem to believe.
Larry

[rbpru]

I like Icanon's suggestion, if your TV is overloaded with stuff see if you can move 300 lbs. of that stuff to the TT.

My TT weights just under 5000 lbs. dry, I weighed everything I loaded and added a bit over 1000 lbs. My TT is rated for a max cargo of 2200 lbs. so it still has some cargo capacity left. It pulls just fine with my E-Boost F-150.

You will see many posts where people routinely over load their ½ tons vehicles and if you farm or work construction you will know this to be true. They are willing to tolerate the increased wear and tear.

However, these people are usually not towing their family or going long distances on the interstate.

In reality you probably will not notice a 300# change while towing, even if you could leave some of the stuff home. You can get a 300 lb. weight change during you trips depending on how much gas is in your TV tank and how full your TT fresh, grey and black water tanks are.

However, you cannot escape the fact that with your present load distribution you are over the TV design limit and adding to the normal TV wear and tear. Only you can decide whether ride, handling, and overall performance of your TV and TT combination is acceptable to you; often that decision come after a trip of two.