How to stay warm

[blckgnx]

Just purchased a 2016 Forest River Rockwood 2304DS and almost froze last night. Temps are 27degree and furnace will not even get close to keeping us warm. Purchased a 1500watt Oil electric heater today, and that will not keep us warm either(we did turn the furnace OFF) after plugging in the electric Oil heater. Please! Any suggestions.

[ECones]

Huntindog wrote:

mtofell1 wrote:
fwiw, they're probably in Arizona and not where it's 27 degrees 🙂

I have often been below freezing in AZ... Quite a few times below zero..

As has been said, there is something wrong with his heater.
As it is a 2016, a trip to the dealer is in order.

My thoughts exactly. That's a new unit. Take it back and tell them the heater doesn't work.

[Chuck_thehammer]

OK, look up all the issues when HOMES were built and wired with aluminum wire and NOT copper....

even with screws for connection.. FIRES... and kept building/using till the law suits stopped it..

second point.. GM and the millions of cars built with BAD ignition switches.. for almost 10 years...

So YES they do..
or the 15 plus million AIR BAGS... in cars... almost 10 years.

but to the HEAT issues..

I have a 12/3 Cord just for the electric heater... also runs the dehumidifier..
and the trailer has a 30 amp connector.. so I never planed to run camper and heater together.

[1911_F-350]

pianotuna wrote:
Add a second shore power cord and run an additional oil filled heater on that 'extra' cord.

What temperature is it inside the rv?

I did this today!
Last night both the heaters were on high, the furnace was cycling on/off and I was about hugging the heater.

I added the line and another heater.

I got in this evening and had to get nekkid and start turning heaters down.:B

We got about 4" of snow today so That helped make my decision to get it done today.

[houtrz]

I lived in my fifth wheel for one winter in Michigan and three winters in Ohio . Coldest night time temps one winter were -20 with the day's high not above zero. The other winters I routinely saw zero to twenty five degree days/nights.

I ended up using the RV furnace, two electric 1500 watt heaters and as needed two
Mr Buddy heater.

[BubbaChris]

You can also look for heat tubing in the cabinets running from where the furnace is to the vents. Sometimes those get pinched by items inside the cabinets.

In addition to closing windows and window coverings, you can get the vent insulating pillows to stuff up there and help cut down on the heat loss.

Good luck!

[westend]

hohenwald48 wrote:
Regarding outlets used in RVs. All this theoretical posturing regarding square inches, nicked wires and everything else is kind of interesting. However, can anybody cite any real world instances of problems, fires or failed outlets as a result?

The issue, at least to me, is not necessarily which is better but more "are the outlets installed by manufacturers adequate".

Obviously, more contact is better than less contact. In much the same way that it would be more efficient and safer to wire 15A circuits with #4 wire as opposed to #12 or #14. However, testing and engineering have determined that #14 is sufficient so installing larger wire is unnecessary.

I'm just wondering if anybody can show that the outlets installed by manufacturers are inadequate for the task?

Of course business's are in the business to make money. However, I doubt they are in the business of burning down their products and injuring their customers.

GDE might be along to reinforce what he took the time to explain but there have been cases of failure with these types of receptacles and there are posts about them on this Forum.

I'd say that everything is "adequate" until it isn't. The problem referenced above has to do with running high draw appliances and the vampire style receptacles. I believe it is an issue as these types of devices are not constructed with the high draw, continuous use in mind. Many on this Forum have had issues and replaced their original receptacles or even installed dedicated power circuit beyond what was original.

When I rebuilt my trailer, I chose to put all devices in shallow single gang boxes and use conventional screw terminal receptacles. It is all similar to the original wiring. Somewhere between 1971 and the present, it was discovered that money could be saved by not installing devices in that manner. There is no other logical conclusion to be made.

I'd suggest to anyone that is using an electrical heater to dedicate the receptacle to that use and change the original "vampire" connected receptacle to a conventional receptacle with a box. For the price, it will be cheap peace of mind.

[hohenwald48]

Regarding outlets used in RVs. All this theoretical posturing regarding square inches, nicked wires and everything else is kind of interesting. However, can anybody cite any real world instances of problems, fires or failed outlets as a result?

The issue, at least to me, is not necessarily which is better but more "are the outlets installed by manufacturers adequate".

Obviously, more contact is better than less contact. In much the same way that it would be more efficient and safer to wire 15A circuits with #4 wire as opposed to #12 or #14. However, testing and engineering have determined that #14 is sufficient so installing larger wire is unnecessary.

I'm just wondering if anybody can show that the outlets installed by manufacturers are inadequate for the task?

Of course business's are in the business to make money. However, I doubt they are in the business of burning down their products and injuring their customers.

[hohenwald48]

Problems with unvented propane heaters are the obvious carbon monoxide danger. Additionally, burning propane in an unvented environment results in approximately 1 gallon of water vapor for every gallon of propane burned. You can expect all this added water to condense on your cold walls and windows.

[Gdetrailer]

CavemanCharlie wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:
Huntindog writes “You do know that many if not most S&B houses are wired in a similar fashion. I have seen quite a few that forgo using the screw teminalal that are present and unstead use the quicker push in wire attachment... Not disputing which one may be better... Just stating a fact. I do think that the screws make for better contact when new,,, But the downside in a mobile application may be the a tendancy to loosen over time”

So.. If someone tells you jump off a cliff BECAUSE they did and lived, you should do it also?

That “justification” is school kid mentality..

There where MILLIONS of houses and mobile homes built in the 1970s and early 1980s which were exclusively wired with ALUMINUM WIRE for all outlets and switches.. Some burned MOST did not and are still in use today..

Does that make it right or good to use?

No.

Millions of homes, mobile homes, RVs plumbed with grey QUEST plastic pipe.. Some broke and flooded and MOST have not and in fact most are STILL IN USE TODAY..

Does that make it right or good to use?

No.

There where millions of 80% efficient FURNACES in homes and mobile homes in the 1980s through late 1990s which high temperature plastic pipe was used to connect the furnace to the flue.. It was recalled when it was discovered that the pipe indeed would get brittle and crack causing a high risk of CO poisoning.. Some DID crack, some were replaced, many are STILL in use (recall never done).

Does it make it right or good to use?

No.

As far as screws used in mobile applications coming loose.. I would be more scared of that little 14 ga contact point heating up and causing a fire with a heavy load.. That contact point is a lot like having a piece of 24 ga speaker wire between the 14ga wire and the plug.. Sure it can be done, for a short time, then it over heats..

Can’t say that I have had ANY of my screw terminals come loose even in mobile applications over the years and heck, even my GENERATORS all USE SCREW TERMINALS for the OUTLET TERMINATIONS FROM FACTORY..

Boy you want a shake test, a GENERATOR will test your connections..

There ALSO IS NO SUCH THING AS A “RV VERSION” of a vampire tap.. Never was designed for RV EXCLUSIVE RV USE, but it found it's way there for EASE OF INSTALLATION.

It was designed for MOBILE HOME BUILDERS to BUILD FASTER WITH LESS LABOR. Has nothing to do with "quality" but has everything to do with trimming the cost per unit built.

RV manufacturers picked up on the idea of saving labor time and ran with it..

I WILL STILL PICK MY SCREW CONNECTIONS OVER THE FLIMSY VAMPIRE TAP ANY DAY.

I'm not arguing with you. I'm just pointing something else out.

If you don't wrap the wire around the screw. And, if you don't wrap it the right way. And, if you don't get the screw tight. Then you would still end up with a bad connection.

Again, I'm sure you do it the right way. I'm just pointing out another thing that I have seen done wrong that makes for a unsafe connection.

If you can't figure out the correct DIRECTION to wrap the wire around a screw terminal you have no business messing with electricity..

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you have the wire wrapped wrong when tightening the screw results in the wire trying to eject it's self from the outlet or switch when tightening the screw.

Not arguing, but it is a pretty simple concept that I learned back when I was perhaps 10 years old messing around with batteries, light bulbs and other misc electrical/electronic stuff..

Not saying that electricians don't make mistakes (they do) but I am saying that a PROPERLY WIRED outlet using a screw terminal IS a much more reliable method..

Screw terminations ARE SLOWER and therefore is more labor intensive..

And businesses ARE in business to MAKE MONEY, so if they can cut down on LABOR by using devices that are QUICKER they WILL do that (and sacrifice some quality along the way)..

[Gdetrailer]

Huntindog wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:
Huntindog writes “You do know that many if not most S&B houses are wired in a similar fashion. I have seen quite a few that forgo using the screw teminalal that are present and unstead use the quicker push in wire attachment... Not disputing which one may be better... Just stating a fact. I do think that the screws make for better contact when new,,, But the downside in a mobile application may be the a tendancy to loosen over time”

So.. If someone tells you jump off a cliff BECAUSE they did and lived, you should do it also?

That “justification” is school kid mentality..

There where MILLIONS of houses and mobile homes built in the 1970s and early 1980s which were exclusively wired with ALUMINUM WIRE for all outlets and switches.. Some burned MOST did not and are still in use today..

Does that make it right or good to use?

No.

Millions of homes, mobile homes, RVs plumbed with grey QUEST plastic pipe.. Some broke and flooded and MOST have not and in fact most are STILL IN USE TODAY..

Does that make it right or good to use?

No.

There where millions of 80% efficient FURNACES in homes and mobile homes in the 1980s through late 1990s which high temperature plastic pipe was used to connect the furnace to the flue.. It was recalled when it was discovered that the pipe indeed would get brittle and crack causing a high risk of CO poisoning.. Some DID crack, some were replaced, many are STILL in use (recall never done).

Does it make it right or good to use?

No.

As far as screws used in mobile applications coming loose.. I would be more scared of that little 14 ga contact point heating up and causing a fire with a heavy load.. That contact point is a lot like having a piece of 24 ga speaker wire between the 14ga wire and the plug.. Sure it can be done, for a short time, then it over heats..

Can’t say that I have had ANY of my screw terminals come loose even in mobile applications over the years and heck, even my GENERATORS all USE SCREW TERMINALS for the OUTLET TERMINATIONS FROM FACTORY..

Boy you want a shake test, a GENERATOR will test your connections..

There ALSO IS NO SUCH THING AS A “RV VERSION” of a vampire tap.. Never was designed for RV EXCLUSIVE RV USE, but it found it's way there for EASE OF INSTALLATION.

It was designed for MOBILE HOME BUILDERS to BUILD FASTER WITH LESS LABOR. Has nothing to do with "quality" but has everything to do with trimming the cost per unit built.

RV manufacturers picked up on the idea of saving labor time and ran with it..

I WILL STILL PICK MY SCREW CONNECTIONS OVER THE FLIMSY VAMPIRE TAP ANY DAY.

All right.. Don't hold back now.. Tell me how you really feel.:B

I don't use portable heaters much, and I have never had a outlet problem. So I won't lose any sleep over it.

Not wanting to pick a fight or argue but there is good reasons as to why a vampire tap isn't all that good.

To drive home my point of view, I took another picture for folks like me that have done electronic and or electrical work will really understand the problem in the photo..



What I di was to remove the insulation from the end that was in the Hubbell outlet..

Pretty graphic to say the least..

What you are seeing is a HUGE DEEP "nick" in the wire, it is BOTH sides and is where the wire was pushed into the tap connection..

Electricians KNOW that nicking wire is a no no and nicking a SOLID wire is even worse yet.

That makes a very weak spot which VIBRATION can BREAK it off.

Yes, I realize the outlet HAS a built in "relief" which is supposed to keep the wire from moving and stay in place..

BUT as you said, it IS being used in a "mobile" environment..

[Gdetrailer]

blckgnx wrote:

blckgnx wrote:
Just purchased a 2016 Forest River Rockwood 2304DS and almost froze last night. Temps are 27degree and furnace will not even get close to keeping us warm. Purchased a 1500watt Oil electric heater today, and that will not keep us warm either(we did turn the furnace OFF) after plugging in the electric Oil heater. Please! Any suggestions.

After all the reading, tracing the furnace ducts(found a poorly routed duct)still very little air/heat out of the one of two vents. I've set the oil heater over the weak vent, and that seems to be holding the cold at bay!! Thanks again to all the well wishers.

Thanks for the update..

Bad routing which may have resulted in the duct being flattened out may be the problem but in the mean time at least you have a solution that is working for now.

[blckgnx]

blckgnx wrote:
Just purchased a 2016 Forest River Rockwood 2304DS and almost froze last night. Temps are 27degree and furnace will not even get close to keeping us warm. Purchased a 1500watt Oil electric heater today, and that will not keep us warm either(we did turn the furnace OFF) after plugging in the electric Oil heater. Please! Any suggestions.

After all the reading, tracing the furnace ducts(found a poorly routed duct)still very little air/heat out of the one of two vents. I've set the oil heater over the weak vent, and that seems to be holding the cold at bay!! Thanks again to all the well wishers.

[Huntindog]

Gdetrailer wrote:
Huntindog writes “You do know that many if not most S&B houses are wired in a similar fashion. I have seen quite a few that forgo using the screw teminalal that are present and unstead use the quicker push in wire attachment... Not disputing which one may be better... Just stating a fact. I do think that the screws make for better contact when new,,, But the downside in a mobile application may be the a tendancy to loosen over time”

So.. If someone tells you jump off a cliff BECAUSE they did and lived, you should do it also?

That “justification” is school kid mentality..

There where MILLIONS of houses and mobile homes built in the 1970s and early 1980s which were exclusively wired with ALUMINUM WIRE for all outlets and switches.. Some burned MOST did not and are still in use today..

Does that make it right or good to use?

No.

Millions of homes, mobile homes, RVs plumbed with grey QUEST plastic pipe.. Some broke and flooded and MOST have not and in fact most are STILL IN USE TODAY..

Does that make it right or good to use?

No.

There where millions of 80% efficient FURNACES in homes and mobile homes in the 1980s through late 1990s which high temperature plastic pipe was used to connect the furnace to the flue.. It was recalled when it was discovered that the pipe indeed would get brittle and crack causing a high risk of CO poisoning.. Some DID crack, some were replaced, many are STILL in use (recall never done).

Does it make it right or good to use?

No.

As far as screws used in mobile applications coming loose.. I would be more scared of that little 14 ga contact point heating up and causing a fire with a heavy load.. That contact point is a lot like having a piece of 24 ga speaker wire between the 14ga wire and the plug.. Sure it can be done, for a short time, then it over heats..

Can’t say that I have had ANY of my screw terminals come loose even in mobile applications over the years and heck, even my GENERATORS all USE SCREW TERMINALS for the OUTLET TERMINATIONS FROM FACTORY..

Boy you want a shake test, a GENERATOR will test your connections..

There ALSO IS NO SUCH THING AS A “RV VERSION” of a vampire tap.. Never was designed for RV EXCLUSIVE RV USE, but it found it's way there for EASE OF INSTALLATION.

It was designed for MOBILE HOME BUILDERS to BUILD FASTER WITH LESS LABOR. Has nothing to do with "quality" but has everything to do with trimming the cost per unit built.

RV manufacturers picked up on the idea of saving labor time and ran with it..

I WILL STILL PICK MY SCREW CONNECTIONS OVER THE FLIMSY VAMPIRE TAP ANY DAY.

All right.. Don't hold back now.. Tell me how you really feel.:B

I don't use portable heaters much, and I have never had a outlet problem. So I won't lose any sleep over it.

[CavemanCharlie]

Gdetrailer wrote:
Huntindog writes “You do know that many if not most S&B houses are wired in a similar fashion. I have seen quite a few that forgo using the screw teminalal that are present and unstead use the quicker push in wire attachment... Not disputing which one may be better... Just stating a fact. I do think that the screws make for better contact when new,,, But the downside in a mobile application may be the a tendancy to loosen over time”

So.. If someone tells you jump off a cliff BECAUSE they did and lived, you should do it also?

That “justification” is school kid mentality..

There where MILLIONS of houses and mobile homes built in the 1970s and early 1980s which were exclusively wired with ALUMINUM WIRE for all outlets and switches.. Some burned MOST did not and are still in use today..

Does that make it right or good to use?

No.

Millions of homes, mobile homes, RVs plumbed with grey QUEST plastic pipe.. Some broke and flooded and MOST have not and in fact most are STILL IN USE TODAY..

Does that make it right or good to use?

No.

There where millions of 80% efficient FURNACES in homes and mobile homes in the 1980s through late 1990s which high temperature plastic pipe was used to connect the furnace to the flue.. It was recalled when it was discovered that the pipe indeed would get brittle and crack causing a high risk of CO poisoning.. Some DID crack, some were replaced, many are STILL in use (recall never done).

Does it make it right or good to use?

No.

As far as screws used in mobile applications coming loose.. I would be more scared of that little 14 ga contact point heating up and causing a fire with a heavy load.. That contact point is a lot like having a piece of 24 ga speaker wire between the 14ga wire and the plug.. Sure it can be done, for a short time, then it over heats..

Can’t say that I have had ANY of my screw terminals come loose even in mobile applications over the years and heck, even my GENERATORS all USE SCREW TERMINALS for the OUTLET TERMINATIONS FROM FACTORY..

Boy you want a shake test, a GENERATOR will test your connections..

There ALSO IS NO SUCH THING AS A “RV VERSION” of a vampire tap.. Never was designed for RV EXCLUSIVE RV USE, but it found it's way there for EASE OF INSTALLATION.

It was designed for MOBILE HOME BUILDERS to BUILD FASTER WITH LESS LABOR. Has nothing to do with "quality" but has everything to do with trimming the cost per unit built.

RV manufacturers picked up on the idea of saving labor time and ran with it..

I WILL STILL PICK MY SCREW CONNECTIONS OVER THE FLIMSY VAMPIRE TAP ANY DAY.

I'm not arguing with you. I'm just pointing something else out.

If you don't wrap the wire around the screw. And, if you don't wrap it the right way. And, if you don't get the screw tight. Then you would still end up with a bad connection.

Again, I'm sure you do it the right way. I'm just pointing out another thing that I have seen done wrong that makes for a unsafe connection.