Is there a Diesel or Gas break point?

[BeerBrewer]

I'm strongly considering upgrading to a 250/2500 or larger truck and I was wondering if there is break point where diesels just make more sense than gas. I know that as a rule diesels are better at pulling heavy loads than gas engines, but they also come with added maintenance costs. So I was wondering if there was a trailer weight where it just makes more sense to buy a diesel. If so, what is it?

We currently don't own a TT, but we've been looking. We first started looking for something my existing truck could pull but we discovered that its not a very robust tower, so we are in the market for a new truck. Since this would be our first TT we don't want to go too big, nothing longer than 29' and no heavier than 8500 lbs GVWR. Some have told us to buy the truck, then fit the trailer to the truck and others have said buy the Trailer and buy the truck to fit it. Its basically the old chicken and egg debate. So we're trying to both at the same time.

Lastly, I've noticed locally that diesel fuel is generally more expensive than regular gasoline, but I don't know if that's true around the country. Is it?

[Grit_dog]

So beerbrewer, this is what , like your 5th thread on what truck should I buy.....
It’s all fun talking/bantering and reccomending.
So back to the reccomending..... since I/we all know more about your uses, needs, wants, limitations etc than maybe we should, it becomes very clear what is the perfect tow rig/daily driver truck for you. And it’s not too far from what you already have.
Pic your favorite flavor of 1/2 ton, big engine, deepest gears offered and tow package.
You will have to do zero to make it tow the trailer you’re considering, like a champ.
If you want it to ride rough and tough like a 3/4 ton, put some E load tires on it and a helper spring or bags. Put too much air in the tires just like the NHSTA is trying to require on 3/4 tons and let er eat!

[Grit_dog]

ppine wrote:
Most of the people that don't like diesels have never owned one.
I feel the joy every time I start the 7.3.
The more miles you drive, the more you pull, the more you need a truck the more you need a diesel.
My 2002 Ford is easily worth twice what a similar gas truck is worth, and going up in value.

^This! I agree with. Well said.

[ppine]

Most of the people that don't like diesels have never owned one.
I feel the joy every time I start the 7.3.
The more miles you drive, the more you pull, the more you need a truck the more you need a diesel.
My 2002 Ford is easily worth twice what a similar gas truck is worth, and going up in value.

[ib516]

rhagfo wrote:

ib516 wrote:
Other than at 11000 ft (one road in the whole of the North American Continent), I have never seen, or heard of the 6.4L Hemi acting the way it does on the Ike Gauntlet test at high altitude.

I have towed 12k (GCW was scaled at 21k) with mine all over the Canadian Rockies on all the grades there (6 to 7%, some near Radium at 11%) and never been down to 20 or 30 mph. There was only one time that I experienced personally that I couldn't accelerate when I wanted to. Times have changed. The newest crop of modern gassers have plenty of power.

In fact, my 2014 Ram 2500 gasser had:
- More payload
- Higher GAWRs *front and rear
- Higher max tow rating (by over 2000#)
- Higher GCWR by 2000#
Than my 2007 3500 SRW Cummins had. The only thing that was lower was my GVWR. The 3500 SRW was 10,100#, the 2500 was 10,000# even. The 2007 Cummins downshifted less, but I dare say a stop watch would see them nearly the same towing the same 12k 5er that I did with both. Real world facts.

The gasser got 7-9 mpg, usually 8ish, the 5.9L Cummins got about 9-11 mpg, usually 10ish hauling the same 37' 5er. Real world.

You do realize that in 2013 Ram finally woke up and put some real numbers to their trucks? Heck my DD is the proud owner of a very nice 2004 Ram CTD 3500 DRW GVWR 12,200#. If I were to buy a 2013+ Ram 3500 CTD SRW with a GVWR of 12,300#I am actually looking at a lightly used 2013+ Ram CTD DRW with a GVWR of 14,000#

Then there is my 2001 Ram 2500 CTD with 3.55's and a 5 speed manual, it has a small timing chip and RV275 injectors, can pull 55 mph up a 6% to 7% grade coming out of a 45 mph corner, in 4th gear (direct drive)pulling our 12,500# 5er, 20,500# GCVW.

I hate to get rid of this truck, except I am currently well over the 8,800# GVWR.

Oh absolutely. And like I have said before, if you are towing really heavy or very often, a diesel is the way to go.

I too had a 24v (2002). I had an Edge EZ and RV275 injectors. Great combo for that generation truck.

[rhagfo]

ktmrfs wrote:
when we bought our 2004.5 duramax, there was IMHO a very noticeable difference between gas and diesel towing performance.

Fast forward to when we got the 2015.5 duramax. Gas engines have advanced to the point where towing capability is pretty much equal.

Yes, we still went with diesel, but in reality differences in tow ratings on the gas vs. diesel is pretty minimal, gasser will give higher payload, worse mileage, and need to run much higher RPM on grades. Diesel will cost more, get better mileage, and run lower RPM on grades.

Both will do good job towing in todays trucks. IMHO Pick what you like.

The differences in tow ratings minimal? Not sure what you are referring to, but gasers tend to top out about 15,000# Diesel about 25K to 30K. Payload doesn't mean squat if you can't move it easily at a reasonable speed.

[rhagfo]

ib516 wrote:
Other than at 11000 ft (one road in the whole of the North American Continent), I have never seen, or heard of the 6.4L Hemi acting the way it does on the Ike Gauntlet test at high altitude.

I have towed 12k (GCW was scaled at 21k) with mine all over the Canadian Rockies on all the grades there (6 to 7%, some near Radium at 11%) and never been down to 20 or 30 mph. There was only one time that I experienced personally that I couldn't accelerate when I wanted to. Times have changed. The newest crop of modern gassers have plenty of power.

In fact, my 2014 Ram 2500 gasser had:
- More payload
- Higher GAWRs *front and rear
- Higher max tow rating (by over 2000#)
- Higher GCWR by 2000#
Than my 2007 3500 SRW Cummins had. The only thing that was lower was my GVWR. The 3500 SRW was 10,100#, the 2500 was 10,000# even. The 2007 Cummins downshifted less, but I dare say a stop watch would see them nearly the same towing the same 12k 5er that I did with both. Real world facts.

The gasser got 7-9 mpg, usually 8ish, the 5.9L Cummins got about 9-11 mpg, usually 10ish hauling the same 37' 5er. Real world.

You do realize that in 2013 Ram finally woke up and put some real numbers to their trucks? Heck my DD is the proud owner of a very nice 2004 Ram CTD 3500 DRW GVWR 12,200#. If I were to buy a 2013+ Ram 3500 CTD SRW with a GVWR of 12,300#I am actually looking at a lightly used 2013+ Ram CTD DRW with a GVWR of 14,000#

Then there is my 2001 Ram 2500 CTD with 3.55's and a 5 speed manual, it has a small timing chip and RV275 injectors, can pull 55 mph up a 6% to 7% grade coming out of a 45 mph corner, in 4th gear (direct drive)pulling our 12,500# 5er, 20,500# GCVW.

I hate to get rid of this truck, except I am currently well over the 8,800# GVWR.

[valhalla360]

It's all about heavy towing (99.99% chance you will never get the up front cost back from better MPG).

Around 14-15klbs, modern gas engine trucks reach their rating limits...after that you need a diesel if you want to be in the trucks ratings. You can look up the different manufacturers to get the specific numbers.

[ktmrfs]

when we bought our 2004.5 duramax, there was IMHO a very noticeable difference between gas and diesel towing performance.

Fast forward to when we got the 2015.5 duramax. Gas engines have advanced to the point where towing capability is pretty much equal.

Yes, we still went with diesel, but in reality differences in tow ratings on the gas vs. diesel is pretty minimal, gasser will give higher payload, worse mileage, and need to run much higher RPM on grades. Diesel will cost more, get better mileage, and run lower RPM on grades.

Both will do good job towing in todays trucks. IMHO Pick what you like.

[ib516]

Other than at 11000 ft (one road in the whole of the North American Continent), I have never seen, or heard of the 6.4L Hemi acting the way it does on the Ike Gauntlet test at high altitude.

I have towed 12k (GCW was scaled at 21k) with mine all over the Canadian Rockies on all the grades there (6 to 7%, some near Radium at 11%) and never been down to 20 or 30 mph. There was only one time that I experienced personally that I couldn't accelerate when I wanted to. Times have changed. The newest crop of modern gassers have plenty of power.

In fact, my 2014 Ram 2500 gasser had:
- More payload
- Higher GAWRs *front and rear
- Higher max tow rating (by over 2000#)
- Higher GCWR by 2000#
Than my 2007 3500 SRW Cummins had. The only thing that was lower was my GVWR. The 3500 SRW was 10,100#, the 2500 was 10,000# even. The 2007 Cummins downshifted less, but I dare say a stop watch would see them nearly the same towing the same 12k 5er that I did with both. Real world facts.

The gasser got 7-9 mpg, usually 8ish, the 5.9L Cummins got about 9-11 mpg, usually 10ish hauling the same 37' 5er. Real world.

[blt2ski]

What grades are you talking about going 20-30 mph? typical frewway at 3-6% max? or 20-30% on side roads? My 454 gas rigs could do all of 15% at 20K lbs before they literally stalled out, could not go forward....My 96 K3500 with a 5 sp manual, 6.5 TD stalled at around 30%. My 05 dmax, believe it or not, with twice the torque, but way the frig taller gears, stall at 24-26%! my Navstar with a 175/330 motor, least torque, least HP, can pull 30K up a 30% grade. Due to better gears in trns and axels. Performance leaves a lot to be desired depending on many factor, not being talked about.......
Cost? talking ROI etc....could be as little as 2-3 years as noted, could be as high as 5-7 years in my case. ROI is too long. 2-3 years I can handle, 5-7, no effing way!
As noted, there is not a right or wrong as to which is better etc. But at todays cost difference of a diesel, the initial cost etc to too high for me. I do admit, if at elevation a lot, ie above 5000', maybe as little as 3000 feet, a forced induction motor getting rated HP to upwards of 10,000', is rather nice, vs the losing of 2-3% per 1000', NO IT IS NOT the 10% loss per 1000' as noted above a few posts, then at 10,000', you have what no power?!?!?!??? yeah right!
I'm giving this post until AM, then you can take this BS to the stuck diesel vs gas sticky! As there is really no right or wrong answer!

Marty

[Walaby]

I think it's a matter of what tool you think you need/want to do the job you want it to do.

Can I get the job done with a Harbor Freight ratchet, or do I need a Craftsman or Snap On? I can probably do the job with the HF ratchet, but when I need to count on it to do what it was designed to do, flawlessly, will it always be there, or will it **** out on Sunday night at 10PM when Im trying to fix my car and all the stores are closed.

You say the mx costs is not an issue but the upfront costs are. Yes, there's an additive investment if you go diesel, but in the long run, it's worth it.

Mike

[ScottG]

time2roll wrote:

ScottG wrote:
Did everyone get the point the OP made about this being a weight thing and not a monetary issue?

This part?

BeerBrewer wrote:
So the fact that a diesel contains more oil or needs some extra things done doesn't concern me at all. Unfortunately upfront costs due matter to us, but its "Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it"......

Not sure what the budget breaking point is. I have a tendency to go a little small if things are tight. Otherwise probably a used truck is best option.

Uh no, This part where the OP clarified his question:

BeerBrewer wrote:
What I meant by a break point, is there a point where a gas 3/4 or 1 ton truck struggles to handle a load. I'd hate to buy a new truck and find myself going up a steep grade only able to do 20 or 30 MPH. We absolutely plan upon touring out west, through higher elevations, even hitting Alaska.

You see I'm trying to avoid repeating some issues that I've had towing a trailer in the past. About 15 years ago, due to my job, we moved from Arizona to Long Island, NY. We thought it would be fun and it was a blast, to drive across the country rather than fly. We had most of our stuff moved by a mover, but we moved our vehicles (Mini-Van and Durango) and some of our "precious" stuff ourselves. So we rented the largest U-Haul trailer we could find and pulled it with our Durango, (318 V8) which was equipped to tow. After we loaded it we had the trailer weighed and we were well within the specs, but we did need to shift the load around a tad. My wife drove the Mini-Van and drove the Durango. For the most part the Durango did fine, except for the climb up to Flagstaff and on the "switch-back" on Rte 40 headed east out of Tennessee. When doing the climb up to Flagstaff I had trouble maintaining speed, I think I was only doing like 20 or 30 mph. The engine temp was climbing real high, so high that I had the heat blasting and it was summer. I had the opposite problem When we hit the "switch-back" coming out of Tennessee, I had trouble keeping my speed down and I white knuckled it all the way down. I'd rather not relive either experience if possible. Even though we had a few "issues" we had a blast. Frankly, it was this trip that spawned the idea of us getting an TT and touring the country "some day". Not only did we see some amazing sites, we also met some equally amazing people. Well "some day" has arrived!

I currently do most of the maintenance on my vehicles now and plan on doing so in the future. So the fact that a diesel contains more oil or needs some extra things done doesn't concern me at all. Unfortunately upfront costs due matter to us, but its "Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it"......

[Grit_dog]

If you pick any one of the new HD gasser trucks with deep gears,it'll pull most any highway in the mountains at or near the speed limit with a, say, 8klb trailer. You WILL be redlined in 2nd gear, maaaybe 3rd to do a 6%+ uphill pull at over a mile high, but you'll get to the top.
Your experience with the ole 318 Durango is not representative of what to expect. New pickup gassers have roughly 2x the power and deeper gears.
All that said, any new HD diesel will absolutely destroy a gasser for towing. And the most powerful 1/2 tons will pull the same or harder than the HD gassers.

[vjstangelo]

FWIW we have a 32’ Winnebago Vista Class A chassis weight of 22,000 and tow a Honda CRV. The V10 Torqshift combo is excellent, way outperforming our old Ex with the V10 4R100 towing a 5000 TT.

Key is the transmission gearing combination for best performance. The V10 had 150,000 miles when we sold it and never did the motor fail us, even traveling 4x from VA to WY.

Ironically the moho did better out west with the mountains than the Ex.