Particulate Filters for Gasoline Direct Injection Engines?

[jus2shy]

One of the proposed approaches of handling particulate matter from a GDI motor: SAE Article on GDI.

Some interesting notes.

• Looks like Audi will join the ranks of Toyota in implementing a port and direct injection setup to help aid in reducing soot emissions (probably with the added side effect of washing the backs of the intake valves as well).
  
• Particulate filters are also noted as a possible way to curb soot emissions.
  
• Also seems like they're looking to higher injection pressures and increasing fuel atomization, getting the injection scheme closer to that of diesels. I have to wonder how that will work with a fuel that has even less lubricating properties than Diesel. Hopefully they don't use the CP4 as a springboard for designing a new injection system 😉

The 2017-2022 time period will be interesting in the world of the Internal Combustion Engine (gasoline specifically).

[brulaz]

Grodyman wrote:

...
I wonder if you have driven behind a diesel in regeneration mode on the road? No way that the fumes from that technology is any safer than older diesel combustion. No way.

Yes, but those fumes only occur during regeneration, not 100% of the time.

The particulate filter concentrates the particles many fold, so even if the regen burn off is not 100% complete, you are still removing lots of stuff overall.

Too bad there seem to be all sorts of problems with regen partulate filter. If it turns out they are needed for GDI engines, that would really be a pain.

I do notice that my EcoB tailpipe is a lot sootier than NA cars.

[Grodyman]

wintersun wrote:

2003silverado wrote:
Looks like they are going to make the gas engines too complicated for their own good along with the diesels. Up until 2007 diesels used to be considered the pillars of reliability due to their relative simplicity, mainly due to the lack of an ignition system. Since 2007 diesels have been made more complicated in the name of reduced emissions, and it seems most of the problems with the diesels is due to the emissions systems, or the injection systems that are also designed to reduce emissions.

I, and I think others on this forum have sacrificed the power of the diesels for the simplicity and lower cost of repair of the gas engines. Not trying to start a fight because I know a lot of people with the newer diesels like them better than the trucks of a decade ago, but I don't know anyone that wouldn't rather have the engines today without the emission systems.

Of course I would much rather have a truck that belched black smoke and put out 100 times as much pollution out the tailpipe. If I benefit and injure 100 other people in the process why should I care as a red blooded American capitalist. Why should I care if others spend more than $12 billion a year on hospitalization from problems caused by air pollution, not my problem is it?

In Europe the gas direct injection engines produce more particle emissions than even diesel engines though the cost of a filter would be only about $50 per vehicle and would not affect fuel economy. Air pollution in the EU contributes to 406,000 deaths each year, more than 100 million lost days of work, and an economic impact of at least $400 billion.

Pollution benefits a few at the expense of the many and net net the lost is magnitudes greater than the gain for the selfish few. Only a child or a sociopath puts pollution ahead of people.

I wonder if you have driven behind a diesel in regeneration mode on the road? No way that the fumes from that technology is any safer than older diesel combustion. No way.

[Grodyman]

ib516 wrote:

2003silverado wrote:

I, and I think others on this forum have sacrificed the power of the diesels for the simplicity and lower cost of repair of the gas engines. Not trying to start a fight because I know a lot of people with the newer diesels like them better than the trucks of a decade ago, but I don't know anyone that wouldn't rather have the engines today without the emission systems.

I'm in that group.

Ditto. No interest in a modern diesel. None.

[Ductape]

NinerBikes wrote:

Ductape wrote:
Actually Robert, they cleaned up the gasoline engines in the US about 20 years in advance of the diesels. Cats, fuel injection, EGR, and unleaded/oxygenated fuels.

They did not take the sulfur out of gasoline yet, and they did not install particulate filters yet. One look at the tail pipe of a clean diesel versus a gasoline model on a 2009 or newer VW jetta, golf sportwagen, beetle or passat with a white glove test will make my point. You can also do the same with an Audi Q7 or Porsche Cayenne. The gasoline versions will have filthy tail pipe soot and residue on the gas models.

I agree with you on the tailpipe test for those you mention... And I also have a '96 F150 that will pass your white glove test. It's in the tuning , throttle response on the Ford sucks while others have optimized the driving experience and probably are as liberal as the regulations permit with open loop fueling. Yes, I realize Gdi makes more PM.

My point being the gasoline engine cleanup journey started earlier and is more mature than diesel. Hopefully serious teething problems are less likely.

[brulaz]

jus2shy wrote:
One of the proposed approaches of handling particulate matter from a GDI motor: SAE Article on GDI.
...

Was surprised to see this in an Engineering Journal:

Engine emissions tend to change with internal wear, so the goal is to maintain these levels over a vehicle’s 150,000-mi (93,200-km) lifetime.

Sure hope I don't have to rebuild my EcoB at 93,200km. 🙂
Maybe it's just the Canadian ones ...

[RobertRyan]

NinerBikes wrote:

Ductape wrote:
Actually Robert, they cleaned up the gasoline engines in the US about 20 years in advance of the diesels. Cats, fuel injection, EGR, and unleaded/oxygenated fuels.

They did not take the sulfur out of gasoline yet, and they did not install particulate filters yet. One look at the tail pipe of a clean diesel versus a gasoline model on a 2009 or newer VW jetta, golf sportwagen, beetle or passat with a white glove test will make my point. You can also do the same with an Audi Q7 or Porsche Cayenne. The gasoline versions will have filthy tail pipe soot and residue on the gas models.

Correct, that is the problem you have to address, It is not going to be easy:(

[NinerBikes]

Ductape wrote:
Actually Robert, they cleaned up the gasoline engines in the US about 20 years in advance of the diesels. Cats, fuel injection, EGR, and unleaded/oxygenated fuels.

They did not take the sulfur out of gasoline yet, and they did not install particulate filters yet. One look at the tail pipe of a clean diesel versus a gasoline model on a 2009 or newer VW jetta, golf sportwagen, beetle or passat with a white glove test will make my point. You can also do the same with an Audi Q7 or Porsche Cayenne. The gasoline versions will have filthy tail pipe soot and residue on the gas models.

[Ductape]

Actually Robert, they cleaned up the gasoline engines in the US about 20 years in advance of the diesels. Cats, fuel injection, EGR, and unleaded/oxygenated fuels.

[RobertRyan]

ib516 wrote:

2003silverado wrote:

I, and I think others on this forum have sacrificed the power of the diesels for the simplicity and lower cost of repair of the gas engines. Not trying to start a fight because I know a lot of people with the newer diesels like them better than the trucks of a decade ago, but I don't know anyone that wouldn't rather have the engines today without the emission systems.

I'm in that group.

If they start regulating Petrol engines in the US like they have with Diesels, your troubles have just begun

[RobertRyan]

Wintersun wrote:
Europe the gas direct injection engines produce more particle emissions than even diesel engines though the cost of a filter would be only about $50 per vehicle and would not affect fuel economy. Air pollution in the EU contributes to 406,000 deaths each year, more than 100 million lost days of work, and an economic impact of at least $400 billio

Not just Europe, but anywhere else including the U.S., this applies

Brulaz wrote:
I was in some European cities a couple of decades ago and would never have choosen to live there because of the air. Belching diesel trucks and buses were everywhere. I believe they've cleaned up considerably since then

Understatement, they are vastly cleaner. You do not get that"Oily" smell you encounter a lot in the US

[NinerBikes]

BenK wrote:
Most over at the Lambo Club complain/worry that there might be a V12 diesel...an
abomination !

Pure 2 seater crowd with no truck/SUV/TV understanding...

VW/Audi has been a kinda sorta good thing for Lamborghini, but worry
that they will 'soften' them too much for those who just have the money
and want the bragging rights of ownership

One guy can only go FAST 'straight'... Toss in some curves and he
might as well be driving a mud hen sedan. Just got lucky in the Dot.com
and bought for the 'show' of the badge. Complains about how harsh and
lack of 'ride quality'

They already stuffed that V-12 TDI into an Audi Q7 AWD, and it was a monster. Had to detune it back down because the transmission design was limited to about 1000 Newton meters, or 737 ft lbs of torque, I think.

[brulaz]

wintersun wrote:

...
Of course I would much rather have a truck that belched black smoke and put out 100 times as much pollution out the tailpipe. If I benefit and injure 100 other people in the process why should I care as a red blooded American capitalist. Why should I care if others spend more than $12 billion a year on hospitalization from problems caused by air pollution, not my problem is it?

In Europe the gas direct injection engines produce more particle emissions than even diesel engines though the cost of a filter would be only about $50 per vehicle and would not affect fuel economy. Air pollution in the EU contributes to 406,000 deaths each year, more than 100 million lost days of work, and an economic impact of at least $400 billion.

Pollution benefits a few at the expense of the many and net net the lost is magnitudes greater than the gain for the selfish few. Only a child or a sociopath puts pollution ahead of people.

It's urban folk who get the direct benefits of vehicle pollution control, and have seen how bad it can be without.

I was in some European cities a couple of decades ago and would never have choosen to live there because of the air. Belching diesel trucks and buses were everywhere. I believe they've cleaned up considerably since then.

Rural folk get the benefit of "dilution is the solution to pollution" and so don't have the same experience and perspective.

[wintersun]

2003silverado wrote:
Looks like they are going to make the gas engines too complicated for their own good along with the diesels. Up until 2007 diesels used to be considered the pillars of reliability due to their relative simplicity, mainly due to the lack of an ignition system. Since 2007 diesels have been made more complicated in the name of reduced emissions, and it seems most of the problems with the diesels is due to the emissions systems, or the injection systems that are also designed to reduce emissions.

I, and I think others on this forum have sacrificed the power of the diesels for the simplicity and lower cost of repair of the gas engines. Not trying to start a fight because I know a lot of people with the newer diesels like them better than the trucks of a decade ago, but I don't know anyone that wouldn't rather have the engines today without the emission systems.

Of course I would much rather have a truck that belched black smoke and put out 100 times as much pollution out the tailpipe. If I benefit and injure 100 other people in the process why should I care as a red blooded American capitalist. Why should I care if others spend more than $12 billion a year on hospitalization from problems caused by air pollution, not my problem is it?

In Europe the gas direct injection engines produce more particle emissions than even diesel engines though the cost of a filter would be only about $50 per vehicle and would not affect fuel economy. Air pollution in the EU contributes to 406,000 deaths each year, more than 100 million lost days of work, and an economic impact of at least $400 billion.

Pollution benefits a few at the expense of the many and net net the lost is magnitudes greater than the gain for the selfish few. Only a child or a sociopath puts pollution ahead of people.

[BenK]

Most over at the Lambo Club complain/worry that there might be a V12 diesel...an
abomination !

Pure 2 seater crowd with no truck/SUV/TV understanding...

VW/Audi has been a kinda sorta good thing for Lamborghini, but worry
that they will 'soften' them too much for those who just have the money
and want the bragging rights of ownership

One guy can only go FAST 'straight'... Toss in some curves and he
might as well be driving a mud hen sedan. Just got lucky in the Dot.com
and bought for the 'show' of the badge. Complains about how harsh and
lack of 'ride quality'