Seeking Advice -- Purchase of Older 3/4 Ton Tow Vehicle

[crcr]

I posted a while back seeking info and advice about buying a used tow vehicle. Thanks to all who responded, I have narrowed my target truck parameters down and have a few questions.

I want to buy a 3/4 ton 4WD crew cab truck with a short bed. These are the trucks I am considering:
Ford F250 V10
Chevy/GMC 2500 or 2500 HD, 6.0 V8

What years do these engines appear in these trucks, and any cautions or tips on what to look for and/or what to avoid? Should I expect that the Ford V10 would get worse mileage than the Chevy 6.0, or about the same? I owned a Ford van with the V10 once and loved the engine, but it was very thirsty.

I am also thinking of considering the Ford 7.3 diesel, or an older Dodge 5.9 diesel. But I need some advice. The vehicle will mainly be used for tow duty in the summer, towing from the hot hot southern desert in AZ to the AZ high country, plus runs to Home Depot and other errands occasionally throughout the year. The vehicle will probably only get 3,000 or 4,000, maybe occasionally near to 5,000 miles max per year, though I will be sure and exercise it regularly. Question: Is this too few miles per year to be practical from a maintenance point of view for the 7.3 Ford or the 5.9 Dodge Ram? Miles in the winter would be within the city not towing.

My budget range is $8,000 to $12,500. I have occasionally seen 7.3 Fords in that range, but would it even be possible to find a Ram 5.9 in decent running condition in that price range?

Thanks in advance for any info and tips!

[PAThwacker]

3/4 ton subs are in that range. They are tow limited but have good payload.

[wandering1]

"3/4 ton 4WD crew cab truck with a short bed".

Doesn't sound like you are looking for one to tow a fifth wheel. What kind of "bumper pull" a tent camper, pop up camper, cargo trailer, or a travel trailer?

[ExxWhy]

The Ford V10 got the 3 valve heads starting in 2005 as well as the 5 speed tranny. Both worthwhile upgrades.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a diesel in your price range that's not beat to death.

[jerem0621]

OP...I have observed a few trends from your replies and I think I have a decent idea of what your looking for.

1) $12,500 ish budget
2) Crew Cab
3) need largeish amount of payload
4) I "think" you are leaning towards a single rear wheel instead of a dually.

For $12,500.00 you have basically eliminated the 6.0 diesel and the early Duramax as a simple head gasket can take 25% plus of your budget out.

Crew cab requirement eliminates the 94-01 cummins powered Rams.

Believe it or not the early 7.3 powerstroke F250's suffered from a healthy lack of payload. I had a 97 F150 and my FIL had a 7.3 PSD F250 and he had about 300 lbs more payload than me. 1900 ish vs my 1600 ish lbs.

Many choose to ignore this fact and add airbags or Timbrens to prop up the rear end on the early F250 super duty's. This doesn't rule these trucks out it's just something to be aware of.

The way I see it there are three trucks that meet all four requirements

1) Ram- 03 Ram V10 2500/3500, 03-05 ish 5.7 Hemi... Be warned, they have 4 doors but the rear cab is smallish

2) GM- 2000-2006 ish Silverado/Sierra with the 6.0 or the 8.1

3) 2000-2007 v10 SuperDuty, buy as new as you can with the better years being 05-07 (new suspension, nicer trucks)... I had a 99 and be warned about them, early 99's (like mine) had a few unique parts mostly with the front suspension that only existed in the early 99's.

If it were me, I would try to find a 150 ish thousand mile 2000-2004 v10 Superduty F350 SRW lariat for around 6000-8000 bucks, have the tranny rebuilt and enjoy the new ride.

I would not pass on a 3500 SRW GM twin in good shape either.

Thanks and good luck!

Jeremiah

[FishOnOne]

rhagfo wrote:
You will get many reply's warning you to stay away from diesel at all cost, too expensive to repair, to costly to operate.
Here is where the come from.
#1. Those loyal Ford owners that bought the 2003 to 2006 6.0 diesel, and had the engine go south. Ford had a real issue with that engine (Navastar.

#2. Those that bought the new improved Ford 6.4, while much better than the 6.0, still had more issues than it should have had.

#3. Those that have driven gas all there life and #1 and #2 have them scared to death of Diesel and the high cost of operation.


What you want to listen to are those that didn't get one of the bad Ford 6.0. One of those that bought a Durmax or Ram. One of those that made the switch, and discovered the pulling power of diesel.

Yes, there are those that went to diesel, and have gone back to gas for one or more reasons, they think the overall cost are too much, because in the winter when gas price drops diesel doesn't.
Well summer is here and gas is rising, and diesel isn't.

The trailer you are looking at can easily be towed with either. Find the best deal you can and go for it.

Then read this thread, this has both the good and the bad. I was really pleased with the responses.
http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/26381356.cfm

#4 Yeah lets not listen to those that purchased the 6.7 cummins that would clog egr valves and DPF's like crazy. :W

Since the change to ULSD, diesel is ~.60/gallon more than gas and will continue that trend.

[RedJeep]

brooks379 wrote:
The 7.3 goes back to the early 90's but the 7.3's that are considered the best are from 01, 02, and 03. I have thought about trading my 02 F350 many times just because of the age of it but it starts up and hauls anything, anywhere , every time.

x1 on the 7.3

[rhagfo]

You will get many reply's warning you to stay away from diesel at all cost, too expensive to repair, to costly to operate.
Here is where the come from.
#1. Those loyal Ford owners that bought the 2003 to 2006 6.0 diesel, and had the engine go south. Ford had a real issue with that engine (Navastar.

#2. Those that bought the new improved Ford 6.4, while much better than the 6.0, still had more issues than it should have had.

#3. Those that have driven gas all there life and #1 and #2 have them scared to death of Diesel and the high cost of operation.


What you want to listen to are those that didn't get one of the bad Ford 6.0. One of those that bought a Durmax or Ram. One of those that made the switch, and discovered the pulling power of diesel.

Yes, there are those that went to diesel, and have gone back to gas for one or more reasons, they think the overall cost are too much, because in the winter when gas price drops diesel doesn't.
Well summer is here and gas is rising, and diesel isn't.

The trailer you are looking at can easily be towed with either. Find the best deal you can and go for it.

Then read this thread, this has both the good and the bad. I was really pleased with the responses.
http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/26381356.cfm

[captnjack]

krobbe wrote:

C Schomer wrote:
I drive a company F V10 and GM 8.1 daily. The v10 gets almost double the mpg of any of the 8.1s I've used and has plenty of power. I'm not a F guy but the F's aren't in the shop as much as the GMs. I have/had 2 terrific CTDs. 97-98.4 was the best 12 valve CTDs - bulletproof fuel system/no emissions/great mpg. 98.5-2002 was the 24v but the fuel pumps were somewhat problems but not all of them. 4w disc brakes came in 2001.5. 03 was the first common rail fueling and the lift pumps can be weak. 03-04.4 had no emissions/great mpg. The 7.3 6 spd trucks I know of are very good trucks but not the autos. You have to keep up on the 7.3 glow plugs/control. A friends 7.3 wouldn't even start on a 50 degree morning when his glow plugs didn't work. Don't go older than about 98 7.3 - no inter cooler. Craig

I'm calling you out on the 2valve V10 getting twice the mpg of an 8.1L. All things being equal, the 8.1 has more hp, more torque, and better fuel economy while towing. And if one keeps one's foot out of it, better non-towing mpg. Now, GM stopped production of the 8.1 for 2007. Ford continues to use the v10.

I'm with you. I know my 8.1 sucks gas but he's getting double the mileage? DOUBLE? Hard to believe.

[jaycocamprs]

I think that kw/00 right on, however I think you should stay with the 4:10 gears even in the 6sp trucks. Since you plan to mainly use the truck to pull a trailer. You also state that you will be doing your towing in CA and the AZ high desert. CA has the 55 mph towing limit and most 2-lane highway is also 55 mph, so you don't need 70 mph gearing.

[krobbe]

C Schomer wrote:
I drive a company F V10 and GM 8.1 daily. The v10 gets almost double the mpg of any of the 8.1s I've used and has plenty of power. I'm not a F guy but the F's aren't in the shop as much as the GMs. I have/had 2 terrific CTDs. 97-98.4 was the best 12 valve CTDs - bulletproof fuel system/no emissions/great mpg. 98.5-2002 was the 24v but the fuel pumps were somewhat problems but not all of them. 4w disc brakes came in 2001.5. 03 was the first common rail fueling and the lift pumps can be weak. 03-04.4 had no emissions/great mpg. The 7.3 6 spd trucks I know of are very good trucks but not the autos. You have to keep up on the 7.3 glow plugs/control. A friends 7.3 wouldn't even start on a 50 degree morning when his glow plugs didn't work. Don't go older than about 98 7.3 - no inter cooler. Craig

I'm calling you out on the 2valve V10 getting twice the mpg of an 8.1L. All things being equal, the 8.1 has more hp, more torque, and better fuel economy while towing. And if one keeps one's foot out of it, better non-towing mpg. Now, GM stopped production of the 8.1 for 2007. Ford continues to use the v10.

[C_Schomer]

I drive a company F V10 and GM 8.1 daily. The v10 gets almost double the mpg of any of the 8.1s I've used and has plenty of power. I'm not a F guy but the F's aren't in the shop as much as the GMs. I have/had 2 terrific CTDs. 97-98.4 was the best 12 valve CTDs - bulletproof fuel system/no emissions/great mpg. 98.5-2002 was the 24v but the fuel pumps were somewhat problems but not all of them. 4w disc brakes came in 2001.5. 03 was the first common rail fueling and the lift pumps can be weak. 03-04.4 had no emissions/great mpg. The 7.3 6 spd trucks I know of are very good trucks but not the autos. You have to keep up on the 7.3 glow plugs/control. A friends 7.3 wouldn't even start on a 50 degree morning when his glow plugs didn't work. Don't go older than about 98 7.3 - no inter cooler. Craig

[crcr]

Wes Tausend wrote:

crcr wrote:

brooks379 wrote:
They had trouble with trucks with auto transmission in the F250 and F350 and I always heard it was from not changing the ATF regularly. I have a 2002 F350 7.3 4x4 CC auto trans. I bought brand new and it has been a GREAT truck...never has been back inside a Ford shop since I bought it. 278,000 miles on it, most all towing.

Thanks! What are the years of F250 and F350 where the 7.3 was offered?

I think, for your budget, you would be most interested in 1999 through early 2003 on the Ford 7.3L diesel. I have owned, for a short time, a 2000 crew cab F-250 with the diesel. Some fairly low mileage 7.3 units, especially 2 wheel-drive, sold for as low as $8k. I bought more expensive 4x4 because I may eventually sell our only other winter 4x4 truck, a gasser 2000 Excursion V-10, which is basically the same 3/4 ton chassis.

The 7.3L diesel (over the V-10) improves empty fuel economy by about 3-4 mpg, and about the same towing. Although the diesel has less HP, about 235 versus 310 for the 6.8L V-10, it runs down the highway right in the sweet torque spot, about 1800-2000 rpm, and does not shift down as often out of overdrive as the V-10. Other than the steepest of hills, 200 HP is already overkill, as level, windless cruise only takes about 100 towing. Newer high HP diesels are factory drag-racers, rather impractical. Of course, who doesn't love hotrods?

The V-10 has to shift down out of overdrive frequently because it runs well under torque peak rpm at highway speeds. As soon as a medium hill is encountered, the engine bogs and it shifts. This is one reason fuel economy suffers more on the V-10. The downshift doesn't hurt the engine, but it sucks more fuel at high rpm. The other reason the diesel makes better fuel economy than gas is that diesel fuel contains more heat energy per gallon of course.

The F-250 Super Duty years I mentioned have a 4 speed auto tranny. They are quite reliable, but the diesel can wreck the torque converter if souped up. Ford calls for fluid changes at 30k intervals and, for a pre-owned purchase, I would look for service records if possible. If the truck was not used for heavy towing I wouldn't worry about double, or triple, service intervals. The max torque on the two engines is similar, with the diesel a little more, and at much lower rpm.

My preferred buy was a specific ultra reliable 1995 2wd Dodge Cummins with a manual tranny. The autos did have a bad reputation on these, but even they are marginally ok if not abused. I missed the buy from my buddy because I didn't realise he was going to sell. As he proudly showed me his newer, snow-loving GM 4x4, I was consequently distracted by my remorse at having missed the very low mileage Cummins buy. It went for $8k. The reason I was so interested in it was that they are the king of mpgs, towing at 14-15 and running empty at 20+. I would have lived with a small standard cab, manual tranny and 2wd for that. At least it had an 8 foot box.

Concerning 4x4, we live in snow country and our preferred daily transportation is a 2007 Toyota Prius which does not do well in deep snow. It high centers and the confounded, no-spin, always-on traction control stops it dead in it's little tracks. Otherwise expect to average 40+ mpg city/highway and, during our model year, was thee most reliable car in the world per Consumer Reports.

Good luck!

Wes
...

Thanks Wes, for all the good information. Very helpful.

[crcr]

kw/00 wrote:
The GM 6.0 has been good since it's introduction, not many issues known. If you get the 4 speed version try to get the 4:10 gear set. If newer and 6 speeds then 3:73 is fine. I pull in 5th OD in Florida, and when I hit a hill it will lose some speed but stay in gear in florida. When outside florida and larger hills I will drop it to 4 th gear, run 3100rpm and keep 65 mph easy. Overall the only issues I have had were broken exhaust studs, water pump at 150k and CPK sensor on my 02. Had the tranny rebuilt in the 02 but only because the TQ converter went south. Overall the 6.0 with the 4l 80e(4 speed) or the newer 6.0 and 6 speed in late 07 and up are excellent trucks. They are proven workhorses and will last. I have had both diesel and gas, so it's really up to what u like. For me, well I only tow 5 times are year or so.. Because of this and the simplicity of gas I chose to stick with a gas truck. I can work on my own truck which is important because I really can't afford to always pay another to do so. With that being said, the 6.0 is one of the easier engines in my opinion to work on. Chevy gives you plenty of room engine bay wise to get the job done. Despite what you may be told, it's cheaper to work on a gas engine. Parts are not all that expensive either. When we had the 02 duramax... Man that thing was a tow beast but when the head gasket went and 2 injectors said goodby... Well got traded in.... If not then about 4-5 g would have fixed it.... I could buy a brand new crate gm 6.0 for less then that...but if u look at diesel then the older cummins, or ford 7.3 is good. The duramax is still my favorite overall when it comes to diesel. The problem is that the older diesels usually have high miles.... Then you hear....well she will go 500k, however everything this else on the truck goes south and it's just one big money pit from then on. If your friend had the 06 and u know the truck well and u trust him, then that may be the way to go in my opinion. Good low miles and good service should give you many years of great service.

A lot of great information. Thanks! Question: How can one determine the rear end ratio on used trucks?

[brooks379]

The 7.3 goes back to the early 90's but the 7.3's that are considered the best are from 01, 02, and 03. I have thought about trading my 02 F350 many times just because of the age of it but it starts up and hauls anything, anywhere , every time.