Towing - TT vs 5er (here we go again!) - sorry folk!

[DutchmenSport]

I'm sure there will be those that disagree with me, but here it goes anyway!

I've towed nothing but bumper pull type trailers and travel trailers all my life. When the questions on these forums arise, "Do I have enough truck to tow this trailer?", my initial response is almost always, "Probably, but not enough to tow comfortably!"

There there is the debate, which tows better? a travel trailer or a 5er.

Well, yesterday (Tuesday, Sept 25), we took delivery of our brand new Montana High Country 40 foot 5er. Everything went well, and the tech folks at the dealership helped me determine my turning radius, backing radius, what to watch for, bed rail height and even hitting the cab with the front of the trailer in a sharp turn.

Turns out my 3500 duly can exceed more than 90 degrees and not hit anything. So, that hurdle is over comes.

Away I went. Now, I figured if I was going to compare the difference in the way the two trailers towed - my 35 foot Outback TT or the now 40 foot Montana 5er, I'd feel the difference in the first 10 seconds and the first 5 minutes would be my gauge. After that, towing the 5er would feel "old hat."

The drive home was only about 35 minutes. But I took seriously evaluation the first 5 minutes and here's my conclusion!

Except for backing up? They towed identical!

The only difference was, I felt more pull and push with the travel trailer. But go so use to it, I never noticed it any more. Opposed to the 5er where I did not feel the pull and push, but I did feel more up and down motion, hitting bumps and stuff in the road.

After 5 minutes, the 5er felt perfectly natural. The extra length seemed to be nullified with the nose over truck bed, But I did notice the wheels tracking the 5er on turns seemed to be a bit more in-line with the truck. In other words, it seemed I could make sharper turns with the 5er and the wheels tracked more true to the truck than being offset. I think that was the only thing I really noticed that seemed truly a bit different. So, the pivot point and wheel base of the trailer makes a bigger difference than the old 5er or TT issues.

So, now that I will no longer being towing a TT again - probably for a long time-, what was the success to my towing, never having a white knuckle experience, never experiencing sway, never have any issues towing?

The success is all in the tow vehicle! "How much can I tow with this truck?" Bottom line.... If you have to ask that question, your truck is too small for the job.

My truck is a 3500 dully diesel 4 door crew cab long bed 6.6 liter with Duramax transmission. It's a towing beast. It's big, it's heavy, and... yes ... it cost a fortune!

Combined with a good quality weight distribution system, NO ONE SHOULD EVER HAVE A BAD TRAVEL TRAILER TOWING EXPERIENCE.

Which tows better? They ARE equal .... if set up correct and the tow vehicle is hefty enough.

What I immediately did NOT like about the 5er set up? Well? When I got home and started unhitching, I can't reach the 5er hitch jaws release handle while standing on the ground! I'm just too short, the sides of my truck are too high and that lever takes a good pull. I don't have enough body leverage to successfully do it. I have to get inside the truck bed to release the jaws. And the tail gate of my pick-up has always been too high for me to simply climb up on. Now that I've removed the shell from my bed, I don't have all those spots to hang onto to to help boost me up on the tail gate. I know, in time, I"ll figure out a routine that will eventually work.

So, for all the nay-sayers that say a 5er is so superior in towing over a trailer, well... I don't think so. With a correct match between trailer and tow vehicle and hitching systems, both a 5er and a TT can (and do) tow equally as nice!

By the way, we're heading out for General Butler State Park in Kentucky for a 4 day week-end. By the time we return home, on Monday, I think this 5er towing thing will be "old hat".

I'm actually very delighted the experience of towing the 5er the first time was positive. But, gosh dang ... is that camper big!

[laknox]

DutchmenSport wrote:
Thanks for the step stool and bucket suggestions. I'll try the bucket, I have lots of them.

I keep a milk crate in my truck bed at all times as a step for my dad to get in, since I don't have running boards. I use that myself, as necessary. I guess I'm still spry enough that I can step up on the tire and pull myself into the bed without really thinking about it. Just have to watch I don't bash my head on the front cap, though. :B

Lyle

[laknox]

Larryect wrote:
Be careful of those turns.

My experience is that the 5th wheel follows more inboard of the truck, cutting the corners and requiring a wider turn of the truck.

Not only that, but you've got to watch for the a$$-end swinging wide. Personally, I make "square" turns, especially in town. Swing wide, then turn =hard=. Growing up farming, I got used to taking up more than one lane, even going straight, so when I'm towing in residential areas, I think nothing of swinging into the other lane to make a turn. On a multi-lane road, I'll take a lane and a half, if necessary, to swing wide enough. Going to my Dad's place, I simply take a less-traveled street to get there.

Lyle

[campigloo]

.. we stop too much and too many times no matter where we go.

Hmmmmmmm. Didn’t know there was such a thing. What will they come up with next!?
Hope you enjoy the new rig!

[ls1mike]

DutchmenSport wrote:
I'm sure there will be those that disagree with me, but here it goes anyway!

I've towed nothing but bumper pull type trailers and travel trailers all my life. When the questions on these forums arise, "Do I have enough truck to tow this trailer?", my initial response is almost always, "Probably, but not enough to tow comfortably!"

There there is the debate, which tows better? a travel trailer or a 5er.

Well, yesterday (Tuesday, Sept 25), we took delivery of our brand new Montana High Country 40 foot 5er. Everything went well, and the tech folks at the dealership helped me determine my turning radius, backing radius, what to watch for, bed rail height and even hitting the cab with the front of the trailer in a sharp turn.

Turns out my 3500 duly can exceed more than 90 degrees and not hit anything. So, that hurdle is over comes.

Away I went. Now, I figured if I was going to compare the difference in the way the two trailers towed - my 35 foot Outback TT or the now 40 foot Montana 5er, I'd feel the difference in the first 10 seconds and the first 5 minutes would be my gauge. After that, towing the 5er would feel "old hat."

The drive home was only about 35 minutes. But I took seriously evaluation the first 5 minutes and here's my conclusion!

Except for backing up? They towed identical!

The only difference was, I felt more pull and push with the travel trailer. But go so use to it, I never noticed it any more. Opposed to the 5er where I did not feel the pull and push, but I did feel more up and down motion, hitting bumps and stuff in the road.

After 5 minutes, the 5er felt perfectly natural. The extra length seemed to be nullified with the nose over truck bed, But I did notice the wheels tracking the 5er on turns seemed to be a bit more in-line with the truck. In other words, it seemed I could make sharper turns with the 5er and the wheels tracked more true to the truck than being offset. I think that was the only thing I really noticed that seemed truly a bit different. So, the pivot point and wheel base of the trailer makes a bigger difference than the old 5er or TT issues.

So, now that I will no longer being towing a TT again - probably for a long time-, what was the success to my towing, never having a white knuckle experience, never experiencing sway, never have any issues towing?

The success is all in the tow vehicle! "How much can I tow with this truck?" Bottom line.... If you have to ask that question, your truck is too small for the job.

My truck is a 3500 dully diesel 4 door crew cab long bed 6.6 liter with Duramax transmission. It's a towing beast. It's big, it's heavy, and... yes ... it cost a fortune!

Combined with a good quality weight distribution system, NO ONE SHOULD EVER HAVE A BAD TRAVEL TRAILER TOWING EXPERIENCE.

Which tows better? They ARE equal .... if set up correct and the tow vehicle is hefty enough.

What I immediately did NOT like about the 5er set up? Well? When I got home and started unhitching, I can't reach the 5er hitch jaws release handle while standing on the ground! I'm just too short, the sides of my truck are too high and that lever takes a good pull. I don't have enough body leverage to successfully do it. I have to get inside the truck bed to release the jaws. And the tail gate of my pick-up has always been too high for me to simply climb up on. Now that I've removed the shell from my bed, I don't have all those spots to hang onto to to help boost me up on the tail gate. I know, in time, I"ll figure out a routine that will eventually work.

So, for all the nay-sayers that say a 5er is so superior in towing over a trailer, well... I don't think so. With a correct match between trailer and tow vehicle and hitching systems, both a 5er and a TT can (and do) tow equally as nice!

By the way, we're heading out for General Butler State Park in Kentucky for a 4 day week-end. By the time we return home, on Monday, I think this 5er towing thing will be "old hat".

I'm actually very delighted the experience of towing the 5er the first time was positive. But, gosh dang ... is that camper big!

My observations are similar. I went from a small 5th wheel to a LARGE travel trailer 25 feet to 32 feet.
My TT weighs as much as the 5er did on the scales. I actually like how my TT tows better. With good shocks and hitch it prevented porposing. Neither of them pushed my 3/4 ton gasser, but loaded for camping the weight of the truck and trailer were almost identical. I have youngish kids so I like having the bed of truck. When I retire things might be different. 🙂 the 5th wheel really bounced the truck around. Something that just doesn't happen now.
My truck is crew cab long bed SRW. I thing the long wheel base helps a lot.

[DutchmenSport]

RedRocket204 wrote:

transamz9 wrote:
How much heavier is the fifth wheel than the tt? Load the tt to that weight and see how it tows.

Don't you mean, "properly load balance the TT to that weight and see how it tows"?

That is assuming the TT has enough payload to accomodate that extra weight.

Completely agree with OP that bad TT towing experience usually comes down to one or more of three things; improper loading balance/tongue weight, not enough truck, poor WDH setup.

I should have responded to this sooner, sorry between work and repacking the new camper, I've not been able to spend much time here.

My Outback, loaded weighed in around 11,000 pounds. The new 5er, empty, except for propane tanks, as it was empty driving from the dealer, according to the manufacturer, weighs in around 12,500. Unbelievable, as big as this 5er is, that's all it weighs empty.

Um ... it's now loaded. Almost everything that came out of the Outback and the truck bed and those shelves in the construction style shell, is now all loaded in the new 5er, ready for take-off tomorrow morning to General Butler State Park in Kentucky.

According to Bing maps, it's only 3 hours and 15 minutes from my house to the State Park. Hum! The way my wife and drive, it may take us 10 hours to get there ... we stop too much and too many times no matter where we go.

Looking forward, all hitched right now, ready to go, and been spending every night in the camper doing drive way camps since we picked it up Tuesday. FYI, all systems working good!

And yes, beginning to find all the little defects and "shoddy" craftsman ship ... like ... um ... one screw that was loose. So far, that's it! Real shoddy work these manufacturers ... real shoddy! Dang that screw! :B

[RedRocket204]

transamz9 wrote:
How much heavier is the fifth wheel than the tt? Load the tt to that weight and see how it tows.

Don't you mean, "properly load balance the TT to that weight and see how it tows"?

That is assuming the TT has enough payload to accomodate that extra weight.

Completely agree with OP that bad TT towing experience usually comes down to one or more of three things; improper loading balance/tongue weight, not enough truck, poor WDH setup.

[Cummins12V98]

"Except for backing up? They towed identical!

The only difference was, I felt more pull and push with the travel trailer. But go so use to it, I never noticed it any more. Opposed to the 5er where I did not feel the pull and push, but I did feel more up and down motion, hitting bumps and stuff in the road."

Identical except for backing then proceed to tell the differences??? Towing a TT with a "Dually" NOT "Dully" is far more controlled ride than a SRW in MOST cases.

[Me_Again]

IdaD wrote:
A fifth wheel can't leverage the truck like a TT can because it hitches over the axle instead of 4' behind it. The heavier pin makes a difference too, but the hitch point is the real key. And yeah, they're largely idiot proof too - just hitch it up and go.

Exactly! We recently purchased a 225MK Laredo which has around 800 pounds dry hitch weight. Dropping the weight on the hitch ball drops the rear of my 2015 RAM 3500 4x4 similar to what the 2800-3000 pin weight of our 5th wheel does to the truck. I have an equalizer hitch to brings the truck back up to the proper percentage of weight on the rear axle.

Going down the road the travel trailer's effect on the RAM is quit different than that of the 5th wheel. I call it a hobby horse effect relayed into the TV. Chris

[IdaD]

A fifth wheel can't leverage the truck like a TT can because it hitches over the axle instead of 4' behind it. The heavier pin makes a difference too, but the hitch point is the real key. And yeah, they're largely idiot proof too - just hitch it up and go.

[2012Coleman]

Larryect wrote:
I would suspect that you would notice a stability difference between the two when you are being passed by a big rig.

This is my experience. When towing my previous TT, I would feel the bow wave when a semi passed. I was surprised by the first one that passed me while towing my fifth wheel - didn't notice it until it was beside me.

I also have a short stool for reaching the lever to hook/unhook, but I mostly hop up on the tire.

[transamz9]

DutchmenSport wrote:
I'm sure there will be those that disagree with me, but here it goes anyway!

I've towed nothing but bumper pull type trailers and travel trailers all my life. When the questions on these forums arise, "Do I have enough truck to tow this trailer?", my initial response is almost always, "Probably, but not enough to tow comfortably!"

There there is the debate, which tows better? a travel trailer or a 5er.

Well, yesterday (Tuesday, Sept 25), we took delivery of our brand new Montana High Country 40 foot 5er. Everything went well, and the tech folks at the dealership helped me determine my turning radius, backing radius, what to watch for, bed rail height and even hitting the cab with the front of the trailer in a sharp turn.

Turns out my 3500 duly can exceed more than 90 degrees and not hit anything. So, that hurdle is over comes.

Away I went. Now, I figured if I was going to compare the difference in the way the two trailers towed - my 35 foot Outback TT or the now 40 foot Montana 5er, I'd feel the difference in the first 10 seconds and the first 5 minutes would be my gauge. After that, towing the 5er would feel "old hat."

The drive home was only about 35 minutes. But I took seriously evaluation the first 5 minutes and here's my conclusion!

Except for backing up? They towed identical!

The only difference was, I felt more pull and push with the travel trailer. But go so use to it, I never noticed it any more. Opposed to the 5er where I did not feel the pull and push, but I did feel more up and down motion, hitting bumps and stuff in the road.

After 5 minutes, the 5er felt perfectly natural. The extra length seemed to be nullified with the nose over truck bed, But I did notice the wheels tracking the 5er on turns seemed to be a bit more in-line with the truck. In other words, it seemed I could make sharper turns with the 5er and the wheels tracked more true to the truck than being offset. I think that was the only thing I really noticed that seemed truly a bit different. So, the pivot point and wheel base of the trailer makes a bigger difference than the old 5er or TT issues.

So, now that I will no longer being towing a TT again - probably for a long time-, what was the success to my towing, never having a white knuckle experience, never experiencing sway, never have any issues towing?

The success is all in the tow vehicle! "How much can I tow with this truck?" Bottom line.... If you have to ask that question, your truck is too small for the job.

My truck is a 3500 dully diesel 4 door crew cab long bed 6.6 liter with Duramax transmission. It's a towing beast. It's big, it's heavy, and... yes ... it cost a fortune!

Combined with a good quality weight distribution system, NO ONE SHOULD EVER HAVE A BAD TRAVEL TRAILER TOWING EXPERIENCE.

Which tows better? They ARE equal .... if set up correct and the tow vehicle is hefty enough.

What I immediately did NOT like about the 5er set up? Well? When I got home and started unhitching, I can't reach the 5er hitch jaws release handle while standing on the ground! I'm just too short, the sides of my truck are too high and that lever takes a good pull. I don't have enough body leverage to successfully do it. I have to get inside the truck bed to release the jaws. And the tail gate of my pick-up has always been too high for me to simply climb up on. Now that I've removed the shell from my bed, I don't have all those spots to hang onto to to help boost me up on the tail gate. I know, in time, I"ll figure out a routine that will eventually work.

So, for all the nay-sayers that say a 5er is so superior in towing over a trailer, well... I don't think so. With a correct match between trailer and tow vehicle and hitching systems, both a 5er and a TT can (and do) tow equally as nice!

By the way, we're heading out for General Butler State Park in Kentucky for a 4 day week-end. By the time we return home, on Monday, I think this 5er towing thing will be "old hat".

I'm actually very delighted the experience of towing the 5er the first time was positive. But, gosh dang ... is that camper big!

How much heavier is the fifth wheel than the tt? Load the tt to that weight and see how it tows.

[valhalla360]

A properly set up bumper pull shouldn't be a white knuckle drive.

But the 5er will do better...particularly if you get into some nasty cross winds.

While nothing is idiot proof, in terms of actually on the road towing...5ers are definitely MORE idiot proof.

[valhalla360]

Jack_Diane_Freedom wrote:

donn0128 wrote:
Only suggestion I can offer. If you dont already have them get a set of walkie talkies and teach your better half how to direct you whwn backing.

Even easier is using your cell phones through the truck blue tooth/hands free, no need for walkie talkie

Even better is to set up some simple hand signals.

It's much harder to accidentally run over your significant other if you can see her in the mirror.

With radio, it's still easy for her to stand right behind the rear bumper telling you to come back.

[Old-Biscuit]

easycamper wrote:
I agree that no one should ever have a bad travel trailer towing experience. With rare exceptions, dealers do a terrible job of setting people up to tow. So people come to the forums looking for help.

Fifth wheels on the other hand are kind of idiot-proof, so they’re a good match for me. It’s really hard to set it up wrong.

Not enough bed rail clearance
Nose high
Light pin
High hitched
Forgetting to open tailgate
Forgetting to close tailgate

Just some of the non-idiot-proof issues with a 5th wheel
Seen them in CGs. read about them on here

Nothing is idiot-proof



DutchmenSport

5vr wheels tracking truck wheels :H

What type of hitch set up do you have?
King pin pivoting in the 5th wheel hitch
OR
a pivoting pin box such as Sidewinder/Revolution etc

My 5vr with standard hitch/pin box the 5vr wheels track INSIDE of truck wheels when making turns