Weights and capacities - Sierra 2500HD D/A

[Second_Chance]

I have another thread going over on the 5th wheel forum as my wife and I contemplate retirement (2nd time around) and we consider going full-time (or most-time) in a fifth wheel. ken56 has a good thread going on this forum started earlier today about weights and capacities on his '14 Silverado 1500. I also pulled my truck across the scales yesterday on the way home. Here's the combination of the results and the specs from the manuals and stickers:

2013 GMC Sierra 2500HD Crew Cab SLT, Duramax/Allison
Rating Spec Scales* Reserve Capacity
GCWR 24,500 7,520 16,980
GVWR 10,000 7,520 2,480
GAWR FRT 5,200 4,440 760
GAWR RR 6,200 3,080 3,120
Tires 6,390 3,080 3,310

Max 5th wheel 17,400
Max pin 3,000

* Includes:
Fuel 255
Driver 208
Undercover tonneau 90

I estimate that removing the tonneau and installing a slider hitch would net another 160 lbs. and I'd need to figure in my wife and miscellaneous stuff that would get thrown in the truck, as well.

The question is this: how close to the remaining 16,980 GCWR and 2,480 on the GVWR (although there are 3,120 lbs. remaining for the rear axle) would you go? I grew up in an earlier day and time with a father and grandfather that would advocate not pushing the limits on equipment. I also used to fly a lot (in the '70s before there were computers and apps to do things for you) and with that mode of transportation, if you didn't calculate your weights and density altitude numbers, it could cost you your life - not just break something on the truck or void the warranty. How about you? Would you stay a certain percent under the calculations or would you consider fivers that would take you right up to the numbers? Am I looking at the right numbers or would you see it a different way? I value your input.

Rob

[Second_Chance]

BenK,

I haven't seen a "curb weight" listed for the truck except perhaps in the sales literature. I don't have an image hosting site to enable posting to this forum, but all the weights in the first column of my original post are straight off the door sticker. At this point, my plan is to stay 13K or under with 2,400 or less pin weight. Looking at the smaller NuWa HitchHikers (probably used), this is doable.

Rob

[BenK]

Second Chance wrote:
snip...

2013 GMC Sierra 2500HD Crew Cab SLT, Duramax/Allison
Rating Spec Scales* Reserve Capacity
GCWR 24,500 7,520 16,980
GVWR 10,000 7,520 2,480

request your listed 'curb' weight

GAWR FRT 5,200 4,440 760
GAWR RR 6,200 3,080 3,120
Tires 6,390 3,080 3,310

Max 5th wheel 17,400
Max pin 3,000

* Includes:
Fuel 255
Driver 208
Undercover tonneau 90


The question is this: how close to the remaining 16,980 GCWR and 2,480 on the GVWR (although there are 3,120 lbs. remaining for the rear axle) would you go? I grew up in an earlier day and time with a father and grandfather that would advocate not pushing the limits on equipment. I also used to fly a lot (in the '70s before there were computers and apps to do things for you) and with that mode of transportation, if you didn't calculate your weights and density altitude numbers, it could cost you your life - not just break something on the truck or void the warranty. How about you? Would you stay a certain percent under the calculations or would you consider fivers that would take you right up to the numbers? Am I looking at the right numbers or would you see it a different way? I value your input.

Rob

Hi Rob,

First..."the Weight Police"...etc. There is no policing on these
freebie forums...it's just a derogatory to dismiss opinion/advice that
does not agree with them...and/or not what they want to hear...IMHO

I'm conservative on anything to do with 'ratings'. As was a designer
in first career and lived under regulatory certification mandates. Also
our insurance checked us often (sued in four different wrongful deaths
attributed to my industrial controls...never went to trial after my
insurance lawyers showed them my documentation, certification test
results, etc, etc) Still cost my companies...or our insurance an arm
and leg...but they loved my documentation (notes, specifications vs
contract spec, etc)

Since you flew and maybe still do...you understand the potential
ramifications of decisions on the ratings. Here, I recommend they
decide if they believe in them or not. If not, then do whatever with
the proviso that they now own the liability (where some advise to
not tell the truth if they have a warranty claim). Or yes, then learn
HOW2 with the actual weighing of their setup as a required thing

Assume you also understand and experienced CG and how that changes
with how you load up. Reference and association to towing with the
CG of both the TV and TT. Polar moments are foreign to so many
discussions here (in reference to handling in emergency situations)

Down here on the ground, the potential is not nearly as great, but it
is still there. Too many think stuff only happens to the other guy
and/or Mr Murphy will not cross their paths

So much 'depends' and another point is that so many folks think in
absolute terms. Meaning if one did it without problems...then all will
not have problems. Ditto the other way...one has problems...they all
will have problems

'Depends' also has how many times per year, how long, terrain and the
biggies: how you drive and what your maintenance (schedule, materials
and 'who' does it)

You are going to full time, so it matter (at least for me) how much
margin you have. Longevity and safety is big factor for me and think
you too (that falling out of the sky awareness that folks seemingly
are clueless on)

Many trade them in after a few years to refresh their consumption of
OEM dialed in margins.

My opinion...your numbers are comfortable if my setup.

PS...would you post a picture of your door labels. All of them and
especially the tire loading label. Many say and I'm hoping they are
correct, that it lists the 'ACTUAL' weight of their vehicle with all
of the options/etc. Not just the curb. Since you have done the right
thing in weighing your setup, axle by axle. Telling for me and hope
to learn that the OEMs are actually listing the weights as it left
their factory floor

Thanks!

[Dayle1]

Just make sure you don't exceed the rear tire capacity. Biggest challenge will be determining what the loaded pin weight will be in order to stay under the tire capacity. Many people like to throw out simple guidelines, like 25% of the fivers GVWR, for loaded pin weight. And they are a decent starting place, but there are a lot more variables. Some fivers have a lot more Carrying Capacity than even a full timer can use. Rear kitchen models generally have lower dry pin weight as a percentage of total dry weight and also more wet weight behind the axles.

As a pilot, you probably can do a good job at estimating how much cargo you will carry. Be aware that most storage is located forward with a fiver so that while the dry pin weight might be 15% of the total dry weight, the maybe 1500 lbs of cargo you add to the fiver may have 40% of that weight show up as pin weight. Make your best calculations and pick a fiver that should give you some margin on tow vehicle tire loading.

For reference my previous 2500 HD towed a fiver with a dry pin weight of 1900 lbs, but it also carried a utility bed that weighted 400 lbs more than the stock bed plus a replacement 45 gal fuel tank.

[Second_Chance]

Lantley wrote:
My first thoughts are don't take the specs. from the manuals as you claim but take them from your door sticker as they apply to your specific truck. Next don't ignore any rating, but you can use the entire rating no need to have any reserve.
Lastly if you ignore enough parameters a 2500 pick up is just as capable as an MDT!
I think your truck starts to max out with a 15K trailer.

Lantley,

It appears I "misspoke" when I stated that specs came from manuals - everything is from the sticker inside the driver's door (except the tire capacities which came off the tires). I intend to stay at 13K or under for the trailer.

Rob

[Lantley]

My first thoughts are don't take the specs. from the manuals as you claim but take them from your door sticker as they apply to your specific truck. Next don't ignore any rating, but you can use the entire rating no need to have any reserve.
Lastly if you ignore enough parameters a 2500 pick up is just as capable as an MDT!
I think your truck starts to max out with a 15K trailer.

[Second_Chance]

rhagfo wrote:

blt2ski wrote:
Are we looking at this from a legal, or a rvnet wt police standpoint?

If a legal, you would have potentially upwards of 20K you can gross your truck at, not that I would recomend this. Going to axel limits is also not too much of an issue, ie over gvwr. Did that with my family of 6 on board two different trucks. Going over gcwr is nothing more than a warrenty issue, so over under, no big.

I was also over gcwr in my last truck by typically 4K lbs, but it did better performance wise than the previous truck with the correct gcwr.....In fact, I have had a few rigs with lower gcwr's than others, and did better pulling etc..... so gcwr in my boat any how, is nothing more than a warrenty/performance factor, where you do not know the performance specs, nor will you ever.

I personally will not tow more than 2x the grawr of the truck. For your rig, that would be 12-13K lbs, as long as I can stay under the axel wt ratings. Many on here thru the years have loaded there DA 2500's upwards of 16K of 5w, pulled great, but bottomed out the rear suspension in dips, going over speed bumps etc. I would suggest you stay at 5500 or less, other wise you will also bottom out at times.

Reality, there is only what you feel is best. Legally, an LEO can pull you over, and if they feel the need to, can sit you at the side of the road. Weight WILL NOT be one of them. This is from being pulled over, taking classes on what is and not legal for using pickups in commercial settings, which personal use has to, and gets the same rules and laws to follow.

Marty

X2!

I am a little surprised that Second Chances Rear axle rating is 10# higher than his tire rating. To the OP, have you replaced the stock tires with something of less capacity?

I also go by Blt2ski's thoughts, I am over GVWR, based on gear ratio over GCVWR on my 01 Ram. The rig tows great I spend a lot of time towing in the coastal range of Oregon, and have no issues staying with traffic. I will NOT exceed the axle or tire ratings, this truck is a Camper special and has 3500 springs, sway bar and larger tires than listed on the VIN sticker (Information for VIN based build sheet from RAM). Our plan is to take this rig into retirement.

Russ,

If you'll look back at my original post, the tires are rated 190lbs over the rear axle (6,390 for tires, 6,200 for the axle). The truck has about 7,500 miles on it and the tires and wheels are the original 20" load range E.

Rob

[rhagfo]

So I looked at your other post, and as it is a bit old,I though I would toss in my two cents here.
I noticed a couple things when looking at the floor plans offered up, most had a closet slide in the bedroom, and a separate bath. I thought the separate bath was a requirement, until I looked at a couple with the Master suite!!
We have a roomy master suite, with a full width closet, AND a 7 drawer dresser at the foot of the bed (four large and three smaller). Many don't like the rear kitchen, but DW loves it and with the exception of the "speed Bump" on 101 north one winter it has not been an issue.

[rhagfo]

blt2ski wrote:
Are we looking at this from a legal, or a rvnet wt police standpoint?

If a legal, you would have potentially upwards of 20K you can gross your truck at, not that I would recomend this. Going to axel limits is also not too much of an issue, ie over gvwr. Did that with my family of 6 on board two different trucks. Going over gcwr is nothing more than a warrenty issue, so over under, no big.

I was also over gcwr in my last truck by typically 4K lbs, but it did better performance wise than the previous truck with the correct gcwr.....In fact, I have had a few rigs with lower gcwr's than others, and did better pulling etc..... so gcwr in my boat any how, is nothing more than a warrenty/performance factor, where you do not know the performance specs, nor will you ever.

I personally will not tow more than 2x the grawr of the truck. For your rig, that would be 12-13K lbs, as long as I can stay under the axel wt ratings. Many on here thru the years have loaded there DA 2500's upwards of 16K of 5w, pulled great, but bottomed out the rear suspension in dips, going over speed bumps etc. I would suggest you stay at 5500 or less, other wise you will also bottom out at times.

Reality, there is only what you feel is best. Legally, an LEO can pull you over, and if they feel the need to, can sit you at the side of the road. Weight WILL NOT be one of them. This is from being pulled over, taking classes on what is and not legal for using pickups in commercial settings, which personal use has to, and gets the same rules and laws to follow.

Marty

X2!

I am a little surprised that Second Chances Rear axle rating is 10# higher than his tire rating. To the OP, have you replaced the stock tires with something of less capacity?

I also go by Blt2ski's thoughts, I am over GVWR, based on gear ratio over GCVWR on my 01 Ram. The rig tows great I spend a lot of time towing in the coastal range of Oregon, and have no issues staying with traffic. I will NOT exceed the axle or tire ratings, this truck is a Camper special and has 3500 springs, sway bar and larger tires than listed on the VIN sticker (Information for VIN based build sheet from RAM). Our plan is to take this rig into retirement.

[gmcsmoke]

Old-Biscuit wrote:
Forget that MFG. magical Tow Rating of 17,500#
You will reach trucks GVWR, RAWR and REAR Tire Load Capacity long before ever reaching that Tow Rating (way too many caveats in the fine print).

You have a 2500 truck......
You have a 10,000 GVWR
You have a 6200 RAWR

You need to look at a 13K GVWR 5vr (MAX) as the pin weight will be 2600# which will place you at your trucks ratings.

OR forget about those ratings and have at it.

this or take the hit now; find a 2011-14 dually and trade up for more payload. You'll have a hard time finding a full time f'ver at 13k.

[Impulse24]

KD4UPL wrote:
I'd load it up to the GCWR or over. I run trucks over all the time with no problems. GVWR I would also run right up to the rating and over. I ignore GVWR and look at axle and tire ratings. That's how it was done when I was a commercial truck driver. If it works for the trucking industry it will work with an RV.
Going by your rear axle rating you could carry about 3,000 pounds of pin weight. However, the 11.5" AAM axle in your truck is rated by AAM at just over 10,000 pounds. If you add 19.5" wheels and tires and either upgrade the springs or add airbags you could carry much more weight in the rear.
If you're going to spend the money on wheel, tires, springs, air bags, etc. You would probably be better off just trading the truck for a dually.
In my own '05 Chevy dually I normally tow up to 16,000 pounds the rear receiver (aftermarket) while the truck may weigh up to 10,000. This is for work pulling equipment trailers and hauling tools. When I use this truck for RVing I put my TC on the back. The truck with family and camper and pulling my boat weighs about 13,500. The GVWR is 11,400 but I'm not over the tire or axle ratings. I have driven many thousands of miles safely this way.
There are, however, a lot of people who will swear I'm going to kill someone. What they don't realize is that many many "hotshot" type truck drivers haul this way legally with dually pick-ups all day long and go thru scales, DOT checks, etc.

Theoretically you are correct, However by your own admission you are what is called a Cowboy amongst real Truck Drivers..

The Vehicle Manufacturer is the one in collaboration with USDOT to decide on weight and carrying capacity. GVWR is governed to keep a vehicle from becoming a lethal weapon and driven within the safety standards for the vehicle in question. A Commercial Vehicle requires all CV restrictions and Requirements. Whereas a Pick up truck doesn't fall into the same catogary, A hotshot doesn't have to abide by Commercial requirements other than having a DOT physical and keeping a log book while abiding by CDL Hours.

In your private Not For Hire vehicle by exceeding GVWR or Tongue Weight and Axle limits you are driving dangerously and if caught will be heavily fined, loose your license and go to jail. There are 50 States and DC to contend with and although you have to abide by your own State other States can and will enforce certain safety regulations for their State. Many States are now requiring Motor homes, TT, 5th wheels etc to stop at scales and CDL inspection stations. I came across this recently in Iowa and Indiana and have heard it is to be adopted in California and Florida with a few States in between.
As to putting people in danger, You know the Answer to that and no one but you can or will change your point of view except you.........

Keep the shiny side up..

[Old-Biscuit]

Forget that MFG. magical Tow Rating of 17,500#
You will reach trucks GVWR, RAWR and REAR Tire Load Capacity long before ever reaching that Tow Rating (way too many caveats in the fine print).

You have a 2500 truck......
You have a 10,000 GVWR
You have a 6200 RAWR

You need to look at a 13K GVWR 5vr (MAX) as the pin weight will be 2600# which will place you at your trucks ratings.

OR forget about those ratings and have at it.

[KD4UPL]

I'd load it up to the GCWR or over. I run trucks over all the time with no problems. GVWR I would also run right up to the rating and over. I ignore GVWR and look at axle and tire ratings. That's how it was done when I was a commercial truck driver. If it works for the trucking industry it will work with an RV.
Going by your rear axle rating you could carry about 3,000 pounds of pin weight. However, the 11.5" AAM axle in your truck is rated by AAM at just over 10,000 pounds. If you add 19.5" wheels and tires and either upgrade the springs or add airbags you could carry much more weight in the rear.
If you're going to spend the money on wheel, tires, springs, air bags, etc. You would probably be better off just trading the truck for a dually.
In my own '05 Chevy dually I normally tow up to 16,000 pounds the rear receiver (aftermarket) while the truck may weigh up to 10,000. This is for work pulling equipment trailers and hauling tools. When I use this truck for RVing I put my TC on the back. The truck with family and camper and pulling my boat weighs about 13,500. The GVWR is 11,400 but I'm not over the tire or axle ratings. I have driven many thousands of miles safely this way.
There are, however, a lot of people who will swear I'm going to kill someone. What they don't realize is that many many "hotshot" type truck drivers haul this way legally with dually pick-ups all day long and go thru scales, DOT checks, etc.

[LarryJM]

Second Chance wrote:
I have another thread going over on the 5th wheel forum as my wife and I contemplate retirement (2nd time around) and we consider going full-time (or most-time) in a fifth wheel. ken56 has a good thread going on this forum started earlier today about weights and capacities on his '14 Silverado 1500. I also pulled my truck across the scales yesterday on the way home. Here's the combination of the results and the specs from the manuals and stickers:

2013 GMC Sierra 2500HD Crew Cab SLT, Duramax/Allison
Rating Spec Scales* Reserve Capacity
GCWR 24,500 7,520 16,980
GVWR 10,000 7,520 2,480
GAWR FRT 5,200 4,440 760
GAWR RR 6,200 3,080 3,120
Tires 6,390 3,080 3,310

Max 5th wheel 17,400
Max pin 3,000

* Includes:
Fuel 255
Driver 208
Undercover tonneau 90

I estimate that removing the tonneau and installing a slider hitch would net another 160 lbs. and I'd need to figure in my wife and miscellaneous stuff that would get thrown in the truck, as well.

The question is this: how close to the remaining 16,980 GCWR and 2,480 on the GVWR (although there are 3,120 lbs. remaining for the rear axle) would you go? I grew up in an earlier day and time with a father and grandfather that would advocate not pushing the limits on equipment. I also used to fly a lot (in the '70s before there were computers and apps to do things for you) and with that mode of transportation, if you didn't calculate your weights and density altitude numbers, it could cost you your life - not just break something on the truck or void the warranty. How about you? Would you stay a certain percent under the calculations or would you consider fivers that would take you right up to the numbers? Am I looking at the right numbers or would you see it a different way? I value your input.

Rob

I'm far from an expert or all that knowledgable in the 5er area, but I think you might be cutting it close on two main areas ... rear tire capacity and your estimate of pin wt. Pin wts. can approach 25% and at a 17K 5er that could approach 4,000+ lbs. Higher capacity tires would IMO be a serious consideration if nothing more for a little more reserve capacity with the potential high and yet unknown exact pin wts when you load things up with the 5er hitch, passengers and misc. cargo.

I think you need to consider being heavier than a typical weekender if you are going to do this full time since things tend to add up fast weight wise.

Personally, I think a 5er maxing out in the 15K range might be as big as I would want to go for the best overall safe and satisifying towing experience.

Larry

[blt2ski]

Are we looking at this from a legal, or a rvnet wt police standpoint?

If a legal, you would have potentially upwards of 20K you can gross your truck at, not that I would recomend this. Going to axel limits is also not too much of an issue, ie over gvwr. Did that with my family of 6 on board two different trucks. Going over gcwr is nothing more than a warrenty issue, so over under, no big.

I was also over gcwr in my last truck by typically 4K lbs, but it did better performance wise than the previous truck with the correct gcwr.....In fact, I have had a few rigs with lower gcwr's than others, and did better pulling etc..... so gcwr in my boat any how, is nothing more than a warrenty/performance factor, where you do not know the performance specs, nor will you ever.

I personally will not tow more than 2x the grawr of the truck. For your rig, that would be 12-13K lbs, as long as I can stay under the axel wt ratings. Many on here thru the years have loaded there DA 2500's upwards of 16K of 5w, pulled great, but bottomed out the rear suspension in dips, going over speed bumps etc. I would suggest you stay at 5500 or less, other wise you will also bottom out at times.

Reality, there is only what you feel is best. Legally, an LEO can pull you over, and if they feel the need to, can sit you at the side of the road. Weight WILL NOT be one of them. This is from being pulled over, taking classes on what is and not legal for using pickups in commercial settings, which personal use has to, and gets the same rules and laws to follow.

Marty