Is being a little over GVWR no worse than doing 60 in a 55?

[Joel_T]

We're struggling between a Lance1985 and a 2285 and to add to that struggle are concerned about our RAM1500 tow capabilities. Many, maybe a majority, are pulling 1985s and 2285s size TTs, 4500 to 5000lb dry weight, 6K max, with half tons. I'd be well under axle loads and tow max but only slightly under GCWR. But, I figure I might be over GVWR 2 to 400lbs, not much but....

I'd wager many are over GVWR if they load their 1/2 tons with anything at all yet claim "great" towing, Is being a little over GVWR no worse than doing 60mph in a 55?

[SlowBro]

So reading this, I gather that being slightly under GVWR isn't a concern, even on long grades?

I calculate I'll be 28lb under the GVWR and we'll traverse I-24 one to three times a year round trip, so up to three trips per year down a 5% grade for 4 1/2 miles, and up to three trips per year down a 6% grade for 4 1/2 miles. That's the worst we expect to see.

Doesn't sound risky but does anyone disagree? I'm all ears.

[NMace]

jerem0621 wrote:

BenK wrote:
Repeat...it boils down to risk management decision (gambling) from someone who
has to ask this type of question

I'll always provide a conservative, by the book advice to anyone asking
this level of question...as the old salts won't/don't ask that type
of question

It is like standing at a ski trail head with choices of 'expert', 'black', 'blue', 'green'...
Ok
Then tell the newbie who belongs on the 'green' slopes to take the 'expert' run...because
I've been taking that for decades with no problems...

I am not nearly as worried about the person who knows how to load a truck and trailer, stays under the tire capacity and operates sensibly. They may wear components out faster but I'm not worried about safety.

The clueless Newb who has never towed a traile. Those people scare me. I don't care what they are driving.

Just because you are under ratings doesn't mean you are safe.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

This is a very thoughtful post. No incrimination of lawsuits, insurance denials, prison time or even public shunning, just the facts. That is not the weight police number crunching to the extreme, it is very helpful.

[AH64ID]

jerem0621 wrote:


Great quote BenK,

I am not nearly as worried about the person who knows how to load a truck and trailer, stays under the tire capacity and operates sensibly. They may wear components out faster but I'm not worried about safety.

The clueless Newb who has never towed a traile. Those people scare me. I don't care what they are driving.

Just because you are under ratings doesn't mean you are safe.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

Well put!

[jerem0621]

BenK wrote:
Repeat...it boils down to risk management decision (gambling) from someone who
has to ask this type of question

I'll always provide a conservative, by the book advice to anyone asking
this level of question...as the old salts won't/don't ask that type
of question

It is like standing at a ski trail head with choices of 'expert', 'black', 'blue', 'green'...

Then tell the newbie who belongs on the 'green' slopes to take the 'expert' run...because
I've been taking that for decades with no problems...

Great quote BenK,

I am not nearly as worried about the person who knows how to load a truck and trailer, stays under the tire capacity and operates sensibly. They may wear components out faster but I'm not worried about safety.

The clueless Newb who has never towed a trailer. Those people scare me. I don't care what they are driving.

Just because you are under ratings doesn't mean you are safe.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

[AH64ID]

JIMNLIN wrote:
states...let me just say not much there I would agree with.

Vague comment that is hard to tell what you don't agree with, but almost all of that is black and white fact and not my opinion unless stated as a conclusion.

Pickups and MDT/HDT's may have different standards, we are talking about pickups last I checked.

Don't let your opinion blur the facts.

Lots of opinions on the matter, but it boils down to the black and white facts. Facts are why I made clear I was talking about Idaho (thou other states have similar or the same DOT laws).

Opinion is opinion and fact is fact, they don't always match.

[BenK]

Repeat...it boils down to risk management decision (gambling) from someone who
has to ask this type of question

I'll always provide a conservative, by the book advice to anyone asking
this level of question...as the old salts won't/don't ask that type
of question

It is like standing at a ski trail head with choices of 'expert', 'black', 'blue', 'green'...

Then tell the newbie who belongs on the 'green' slopes to take the 'expert' run...because
I've been taking that for decades with no problems...

[JIMNLIN]

Not so true on 3/4 and 1 ton pickups.

The axle on my pickup is the same axle, and same brakes, as the one used on a DRW. The GAWR has a difference of 3150lbs, but only a GVWR difference of 2300lbs.

Ford even discusses that brakes are sized to the GVWR in their towing brochure. "Towing vehicle’s braking system is rated for operation at GVWR"... which on any HD pickup is less than the sum of front and rear.

On my TT the 5200lb axle has the same brakes as a 6K, 7K, and some 8K lbs axles. The brakes are not the limiting factor there, even the bearings are the same as the 7K axle, but a different tube/hub are on the 7K (and some 6K have the 8 lug hub). Brakes are not a determining factor on my trailer axles.

This is why one must research their truck/trailer if they plan to exceed GVWR.

All my research on pickups has lead me to the conclusion than brakes are based on GVWR, not FAWR+RAWR... The only time I have found it to not be true is looking at multiple GVWR's with the same brakes.. i.e. a 3/4 Ram has the same brakes as a DRW Ram in my year... or some cab configurations change GVWR for the same components. So the brakes are designed for the highest rated application.

As far as DOT is concerned they don't care, at least here in Idaho, about any GVW or GAW... simply what I have registered for and what tires I have (and under 20K/axle). Beyond that it's up to me to be smart about loading. I know I have 9K worth of tires on my front axle, and I also know the axle itself can't go that high.

Looking thru specs there isn't a single 3/4 or 1 ton SRW truck I can find that isn't tire limited. That takes everything into account. Most 1/2 tons are axle limited these days... in years past they have been tire limited but with all the 17-22" rims out there the tires hold a little more, even as LRB.

Having pulled for a living and delt with dot issues in multi states...let me just say not much there I would agree with.

[wecamp04]

I was in the same place as you when we first started out had a 1500 chevrolet and got a tt that when loaded for a trip put us over weight just a little,Used the set
up almost 2 years till my truck got tired and gave up.Then I got a super duty big difference even with a bigger tt much better towing,you can't have to much truck.

[BenK]

My first hand experience on evidence gathering after an accident here in California

Buddies and I were convoying our boats on 580 between Livermore and Tracy when
a small car cut in front of buddy behind me to make an off ramp

We all had 8.6K GVWR Suburbans towing big boats (mine was +8.5K). His a bit bigger
in height and weight

Avoiding that little car, my buddy spent a bit of time sideways across all four lanes
as the boat/trailer fishtailed several times to turn over...to then take his
Sub almost over...his Sub just tipped over on it's side and slide along with the boat/trailer

Several innocent cars were 'touched' and on the side of the road (it was a Sat
morning and lucky very early so not as many as it would have been an hour later)

All came to rest with no major injuries.

Took me a bit to get to the next over pass and come back

When I did get back to the scene...the Cal Highway Patrol (CHP) was already
there talking to witnesses

Of course the tiny car didn't stop and got away

What then happened was that his Suburban started to make a crunch, crunch noise
and then noticed that his whole roof was bent outwards down the length and on the
middle

Then his windshield popped to crack down the middle while we were standing there

The CHP Sargent on the scene instructed his officers to take down the label info
for both buddies Sub, boat trailer and boat. They also checked the hookup (safety
chains, lanyard, etc), which never came apart

Also measured the pavement marks.

Betcha they would have taken even more 'evidence' if someone got hurt bad or killed

Buddy was NOT cited as they told him not his fault and GREAT job manhandling the
whole setup. His insurance paid for everything...albeit at a discounted (depreciation)
amount...buddy doesn't remember much details of what he did...just reaching over
to hold his wife

And I've been personally sued four separate times for wrongful death involving
my industrial controls (partner and all the doc's had my sig in the title block
as designed by, drawn by, checked by, approved by all or combo).

Insurance focused on mine, engineers, certification group, external certification
groups and the regulatory agency acceptance paperwork. Other was whether we
had instruction manuals covering everything...including the warnings that no one
ever reads (known by the courts...but expected to do so anyway). The key to
all that were the target specifications designed to, tested to, certified to...that
it was in the manuals, on the labels, etc.

Said wonderful we used bound and pg numbered note books...not spiral or loose leaf
They copied EVERYTHING

None of them went to trial and now know the routine all to well

Know enough of that routine to know I can and will sue anyone who hurts, maims
or kills anyone I know/love/etc if they are over weight

Now folks will say never read it in the papers, hear it in the news, etc

Yes, of course...as most all legal settlements (mainly insurance) will have them
payout, but in the contract will be a NDA you must sign before they will give
you the money.

In that NDA it will say if you disclose anything about this...you have to give
back all the money and then are subject to them suing you for everything you
have...plus future wage garnish

That is my personal experience..not a heard from a buddy's buddy stuff. Keith
might have similar experience and might not be able to tell due to NDA's...my guess

[NMace]

kaydeejay wrote:
All vehicle manufacturers are required to certify to the Federal Government that their vehicles comply with all Safety and Emission standards on the date of manufacture (read the label on your door).
GVWR is the MAXIMUM weight at which the manufacturer will stand behind the vehicle in meeting those regs.
If you go over GVWR your truck is NOT going to fall apart but be aware of the following possible (but unlikely) scenarios:

• You may wear out driveline components faster than their designed life
• Your dealer could void your drivetrain & suspension warranty
• If you were involved in an accident you could be cited for overloading
• Following such an accident you insurance company could terminate coverage

Bearing all of the above in mind, I would not get too excited about 200-400# overweight.
Where I would start to get concerned would be at 1000# or more over.
Many years ago I was involved in a couple of court cases where drivers involved in accidents WERE prosecuted for being 1000# and 1500# over. They were charged with negligence.
Just be careful!

I find this very interesting.

What was your involvement? Prosecuting or defense attorney? If in an accident how was it determined how much they were overweight? Did they weigh the debris? You say charged, were they found guilty? What was the penalty?

Thanks in advance.

[AH64ID]

JIMNLIN wrote:

John wrote:
Often times GVWR is limited to less than f+R awr due to brakes. We know the frame is designed for the full rating at each end, so there is something else limiting it.

There are times where exceeding GVWR isn't a big deal, and other times where it is. It really just depends on what your using.

Actually brakes on a vehicle ( our trucks or trailers) are determined by the axle rating;

NHTSA says this about components of the GAWR:
"Gross Axle Weight Rating is the rated load-carrying capacity of an individual axle and wheel assembly. (It represents the load that may be steadily sustained by the components in the system; i.e., tires, rims, hubs, bearing, axles, brakes, suspension, sub frame, etc. with the GAWR limited by the components with the lowest working rating".

This is one big reason dot allows us to use the sum of the vehicles axle rating as the vehicles GVW (if required) and another reason GVWR doesn't determine how much load the truck can carry safely/legally.

Many times its not the tires that is the weak link in any size truck. looking at tire/wheels/spring rate spec on Fords 150/250/350 trucks shows the wheels with the lowest rating on some trucks and others its the spring pack.

Not so true on 3/4 and 1 ton pickups.

The axle on my pickup is the same axle, and same brakes, as the one used on a DRW. The GAWR has a difference of 3150lbs, but only a GVWR difference of 2300lbs.

Ford even discusses that brakes are sized to the GVWR in their towing brochure. "Towing vehicle’s braking system is rated for operation at GVWR"... which on any HD pickup is less than the sum of front and rear.

On my TT the 5200lb axle has the same brakes as a 6K, 7K, and some 8K lbs axles. The brakes are not the limiting factor there, even the bearings are the same as the 7K axle, but a different tube/hub are on the 7K (and some 6K have the 8 lug hub). Brakes are not a determining factor on my trailer axles.

This is why one must research their truck/trailer if they plan to exceed GVWR.

All my research on pickups has lead me to the conclusion than brakes are based on GVWR, not FAWR+RAWR... The only time I have found it to not be true is looking at multiple GVWR's with the same brakes.. i.e. a 3/4 Ram has the same brakes as a DRW Ram in my year... or some cab configurations change GVWR for the same components. So the brakes are designed for the highest rated application.

As far as DOT is concerned they don't care, at least here in Idaho, about any GVW or GAW... simply what I have registered for and what tires I have (and under 20K/axle). Beyond that it's up to me to be smart about loading. I know I have 9K worth of tires on my front axle, and I also know the axle itself can't go that high.

Looking thru specs there isn't a single 3/4 or 1 ton SRW truck I can find that isn't tire limited. That takes everything into account. Most 1/2 tons are axle limited these days... in years past they have been tire limited but with all the 17-22" rims out there the tires hold a little more, even as LRB.

[JIMNLIN]

John wrote:
Often times GVWR is limited to less than f+R awr due to brakes. We know the frame is designed for the full rating at each end, so there is something else limiting it.

There are times where exceeding GVWR isn't a big deal, and other times where it is. It really just depends on what your using.

Actually brakes on a vehicle ( our trucks or trailers) are determined by the axle rating;

NHTSA says this about components of the GAWR:
"Gross Axle Weight Rating is the rated load-carrying capacity of an individual axle and wheel assembly. (It represents the load that may be steadily sustained by the components in the system; i.e., tires, rims, hubs, bearing, axles, brakes, suspension, sub frame, etc. with the GAWR limited by the components with the lowest working rating".

This is one big reason dot allows us to use the sum of the vehicles axle rating as the vehicles GVW (if required) and another reason GVWR doesn't determine how much load the truck can carry safely/legally.

Many times its not the tires that is the weak link in any size truck. looking at tire/wheels/spring rate spec on Fords 150/250/350 trucks shows the wheels with the lowest rating on some trucks and others its the spring pack.

[AH64ID]

rhagfo wrote:

dieseltruckdriver wrote:
OK, I read through the first page plus a few posts of three pages, and hopefully someone said this already.

Look at the sidewall of your tires, they will list a max weight per tire. Pay very close attention to that number. If you are maxing that number out, or going over it, going 60 in a 55 will be worse than going over what the owners manual says should be your maximum weight.

If you are exceeding the weight limits of your tires, you really do need to slow down, and make sure the tires are at maximum inflation listed. This is a much bigger safety issue in my opinion. You have a a very real chance of a blowout.

That should be slow down to a dead stop and either put higher capacity tires AND rim on OR reduce your load.

Exceeding GVWR is one thing, as on some TV it is as low as 78% of total axles capacity, or in my case 65% of total tire capacity.

Exceeding axle capacity gets real questionable, as GRAWR is usually tied to tire capacity.

Exceeding tire capacity is asking for big trouble. :S

But that doesn't mean you can throw some LRE tires on a 1/2 ton semi-float axle and load it up.

Not all 1/2 ton rear axles are tire limited, unlike all 3/4 ton rear axles.

Often times GVWR is limited to less than f+R awr due to brakes. We know the frame is designed for the full rating at each end, so there is something else limiting it.

There are times where exceeding GVWR isn't a big deal, and other times where it is. It really just depends on what your using.

I'd have no issues loading up my truck to 2,400lbs over GVWR, but I know all the same components are used in tricks with a rating that high. It's not the same in a 1/2 ton where the parts are at, or very close to, design spec for the most part.

My 0.2 is to stick to axle limits on a 1/2 ton, and try to stay close to GVWR as that's the stoping power the truck has.

Nothing wrong with having too much tire! Just don't assume that going from LRB to LRE will gain a bunch of useable capacity on a 1/2 ton.

[rhagfo]

dieseltruckdriver wrote:
OK, I read through the first page plus a few posts of three pages, and hopefully someone said this already.

Look at the sidewall of your tires, they will list a max weight per tire. Pay very close attention to that number. If you are maxing that number out, or going over it, going 60 in a 55 will be worse than going over what the owners manual says should be your maximum weight.

If you are exceeding the weight limits of your tires, you really do need to slow down, and make sure the tires are at maximum inflation listed. This is a much bigger safety issue in my opinion. You have a a very real chance of a blowout.

That should be slow down to a dead stop and either put higher capacity tires AND rim on OR reduce your load.

Exceeding GVWR is one thing, as on some TV it is as low as 78% of total axles capacity, or in my case 65% of total tire capacity.

Exceeding axle capacity gets real questionable, as GRAWR is usually tied to tire capacity.

Exceeding tire capacity is asking for big trouble. :S

[dieseltruckdriv]

OK, I read through the first page plus a few posts of three pages, and hopefully someone said this already.

Look at the sidewall of your tires, they will list a max weight per tire. Pay very close attention to that number. If you are maxing that number out, or going over it, going 60 in a 55 will be worse than going over what the owners manual says should be your maximum weight.

If you are exceeding the weight limits of your tires, you really do need to slow down, and make sure the tires are at maximum inflation listed. This is a much bigger safety issue in my opinion. You have a a very real chance of a blowout.