"Dry Weight" Questions

[ChristyFord]

If "dealer installed options" are not counted in the dry weight of a travel trailer, is there a rule of thumb estimate to include when calculating potential GVW? And what would constitute those options? I can't see why the a/c unit and fridge would be "options," why would those ever be left out of a trailer, but what do I know.

Also, when looking at specs I see "hitch weight" listed, is that a separate weight or is that included in the dry weight? Or is that meaning what the tongue weight would be if you towed it as-is?

https://www.rvusa.com/rv-guide/2017-forest-river-grey-wolf-toy-hauler-floorplan-19rr-tr32338

[Grit_dog]

BenK wrote:
Folks gotta remember that the OP is a newbie...

Old timers like me already made newbie mistakes and have that experience to lean on and also have experience on HOW2 manhandle the setup during a Mr Murphy encounter

This and IdaD responses are spot on and lead to my response in the other thread. GO get some windshield time with a trailer in tow. There is NO substitute for experience, no matter how little you're able to gain before the big trip. Learning curve should be fairly steep....IF you or your husband are at all mechanically inclined.
If you're the type of folks who consider an oil change or a flat tire a challenge and can't jump into a stick shift vehicle and know what all the pedals are for and how to work them, then getting some Practice towing is paramount to your comfort level on the trip.

[Cummins12V98]

Ya better have more truck than what you THINK.

MY DRV came to me 18,075#. The GVWR IS 21K. So one could estimate a max realistic pin of 5,250# @25% pin. Not oh no! My loaded RV weighs 23k with 25% pin at 5,750# or more.

Know your real world truck axle weights to determine what the rear axle can CARRY.

[myredracer]

I weighed our KZ TT on the way home from the dealer and it weighed 190 lbs more than the sticker on the inside of a cabinet door. We ordered some heavier options (solid surface counters, eg.) and I suspect their published UVW was an average or a baseline figure and they don't actually weigh each unit.

The weight of ALL cargo fully loaded for camping for two for our 29' TT came to only 555 lbs. That's all the usual cargo anyone would have like BBQ, chocks, sewer stuff, outdoor mat, snap-up brackets, kitchen stuff + food, stuff in bathroom, lots of misc. stuff under the bed, some books and DVDs, etc., etc... I would say allowing 1,000 lbs is more than ample unless maybe full-timing, going on a very long trip, have a large family and/or the TT is long.

People give all sorts of figures for the weight of cargo in the 1K-3K range. Some brands and models of TTs have a high CCC and some have low CCC. Using the GVWR is a good thing for shopping to be conservative and weighing your TT after fully loaded is a good idea to know where you're at. The weight of holding tank contents (8.3 lbs/gal.) can really throw things off and in some cases even put you over the GVWR. GVWR is a good number for determining what rating of WDH to get. Modifications & upgrades will add more weight (likely under 200 lbs). If towing with a tank of fresh water, some FW tanks are ahead of the axles and can have an impact on the TW and towing.

[dodge_guy]

I never use the GVWR to see if I can tow it. I go by the dry weight plus 12-1500lbs. This will get me close to the actual ready to travel weight. In my case my trailers CCC is 4100lbs, no it’s not a toy hauler! It just has a lot of CCC. Dry is 7100lbs, GVWR is 11,200lbs.

Add 1500lbs to the dry weight that will get you your ready to travel weight.

And yes my dry weight stickers are all accurate!

[BenK]

The generic formula to figure is

GCWR >= GVW + Trailer + stuff

....actual weights and includes people, pets, etc, etc, etc


Why said, if you don’t have actual weights...use the max rated limits, but know still guessing until you actually weigh it axe by axle

This comes up often, so copied an old thread and not retype...



Help me make sense of my vehicle's towing capabilities

BenK wrote:
Welcome to the forum !

You will need some basic information and a few trips to the scales

Basic info needed:

• GCWR
• GAWR, front
• GAWR, rear
• Actual TV weight by axle
• Actual trailer weight (if you don't have that yet, use it's GVWR as that is that is heaviest weight it is rated for
• Actual tongue weight (if you don't have the trailer, use the brochure tongue weight and calculate the tongue percentage weight vs the listed 'dry weight'

Then the simple math using the above data

Normally suggest newbies first decide if they believe in their TV OEM's ratings system (even generic OEM Ratings system) or not. If so, then do the above...if not then academic this and just do whatever...but your comment says, I think, you do believe

Also, assume you used to just hook up and go 'cuz of owning one of the highest class pickups...and now you want to/need to figure it out to not wear out or kill your new TV

Comments embedded in red below

dante93gtz wrote:
I'm trying to best determine what my truck is (and is not) capable of hauling. We recently sold our F350 diesel in favor of something with 3 rows of seating. We bought a '14 Cadillac Escalade ESV AWD. That being said, I'm coming from the world of being able to tow most anything to now having to think about weights and capacities again. 😞

The Mrs. and I have started talking about a camper to get our young family out in the woods more easily than by tent camping. In an effort to make the most informed decision possible, I wanted to get some opinions from the forum.

I've done some preliminary research on my vehicle but based on the results, I'm concerned that either (a) I've not taken a variable into consideration, or (b) my new TV is much less capable than I originally thought.

Alright, so... I've got the basic figures listed here along with what I believe are accurate weights:

'14 Escalade ESV Weights w/ Class III hitch (in lbs.)

Curb Weight: 5982

This the basis from which most all TV OEM's derive the tow ratings....but note that this is the 'stripper' model with ZERO options...other than the 'Tow Option' and one 150 lb driver. Most times, the OEM does not offer a 'curb weight' (stripper) model for sale.

As noted by others...an Escalade is in the top tier of bling. All of those options add weight...which deducts from the MTWR (Max Tow Weight Rating) pound for pound

Then the additional stuff. Like people, pets, cargo in/on the TV,
after market stuff, etc, etc...all deduct, pound for pound, from the MTWR

My 3/4 Ton Suburban, K3500, 7.4L big block and full up option packages weighs in around 7,200 lbs with just me in it (180 lbs)

SMOG test has the official DMV form list my curb at 5,250. Wonder how much stuff would need to be unbolted and tossed to get it down to 5,250...

The big block and bigger automatic might be about 300-400 lbs more than the small block and smaller tranny..

GVWR: 7400

A half ton and worlds different from your 1 ton

Biggest difference is in the rear GAWR and is where most half tons in the lower class get into ratings trouble

Carrying Capacity incl. tongue weight: 1418


Theoretical Passenger Weight: 500 (2 adults, 3 small children + small carry-on items)

Theoretical Fuel Weight (31gal): 196

Theoretical capacity (of GVWR) for tongue
weight afer fuel and passengers: 672

The only way to know is to use the actual tongue weight. Hope your new trailer is light weight

Towing Capacity: 7700

Again, this MTWR is derived from a 'curb weight' (stripper) model

Unless your TV is a stripper, it will weigh hundreds to a thousand pounds more and that will reduce the brochure MTWR pound for pound

Weight of the camper itself aside, by my figures it looks like I should be looking for a travel trailer with a tongue weight of <672lbs, correct? That seems fairly low, considering the trailers we've been looking at are generally 700-800lbs for the tongue weight. Of course, we'll be running a WD setup but I know that doesn't reduce tongue weight.

Any advice or input based on these figures? We still have access to my father's Dodge 3500 is we *had* to use it to go camping, but we were really hoping to use the Escalade since the kids will be much less cramped inside. We don't plan on going much further than 200 miles away from home as we live very close to many of the areas we'd like to camp at.

Thanks in advance,
Brian

[SoundGuy]

centerline wrote:
the manufacture posts a GVW/GVWR, which is a number based on the engineering factors and the axles and tires installed at the time it left the factory....

GVWR yes, GVW impossible. :R GVW is the trailer's weight as it may sit at any given time and varies constantly ... toss a case of beer in the trailer and it's GVW changes so there's no way any manufacturer can post a GVW number. 😉 The best they can do is post it's GVWR, which is the most the trailer should ever weigh under any circumstances.

[BenK]

Folks gotta remember that the OP is a newbie...

Old timers like me already made newbie mistakes and have that experience to lean on and also have experience on HOW2 manhandle the setup during a Mr Murphy encounter

[centerline]

the manufacture posts a GVW/GVWR, which is a number based on the engineering factors and the axles and tires installed at the time it left the factory....
there is also a manufactured vehicle/trailer DRY weight listed somewhere, but the actual dry weight can vary by several hundred pounds due to last minute changes/upgrades, component weights taken from an average, tire and wheel package, the list can go on, ect...

it doesnt matter if the changes were made at the factory or by the dealer, the actual weight is very seldom within a couple hundred pounds of the listed weight... it needs to be ran across a scale to get the actual numbers. this can be done when you first take delivery of it, and then afterwards when you have all tanks full and its loaded with everything you will be traveling with...

only then will you know if you are exceeding the GVWR... heavier axles or different tires could increase the GVWR of it if you find you are too heavy, PROVIDING the manufacture has built the frame strong enough to support the extra weight.. which is not to be taken for granted.
always check with the manufacture....

[IdaD]

It's not the best answer but I've never weighed a trailer. I just load it up with our junk and we go camping or off on our vacation. Same with utility trailers which frankly have probably pushed the limits a little harder at times. I blame my farm upbringing.

[JIMNLIN]

ependydad wrote:

Old-Biscuit wrote:
Listed/published 'tongue/pin weight' is 'DRY' weight based on the 'Listed/published' DRY trailer weight.
(500# dry tongue for 5000# trailer equals a DRY 10% tongue weight etc)
Dry tongue/pin weight is for a basically empty trailer.....(lot of mfg. fine print will state 'Numbers are an Average' for such & such model


Look at data plate on trailer for the GVWR.
Use the dry tongue/pin weight percentage to figure WET tongue/pin weight based on GVWR

Can your TV handle that WET tongue/pin weight?
If so........good to go
IF 'marginal' might be OK if you do NOT load trailer up

Unsurprisingly, I agree with Old-Biscuit. You can often determine what a wet weight for a trailer will be by taking the dry weights and calculating the percentage.

I built a simple calculator to help with that:
http://towingplanner.com/Estimators/TonguePinWeightFromDry

Unlike others, I don't always say to use the GVWR. It's often quoted on forums (and who knows if it's true that the *average* RV gains 1,500 lbs. of cargo). (Of course, now people will post they only carry 400 lbs. or 4,000 lbs. but hey, what can you do?) Going by GVWR is definitely the most conservative.

X2.
Most rv folks never weigh their trailer as it comes from the factory.

The three truck campers and three 5th wheel trailers I've owned were all within a 200-300 lbs of the mfg estimated dry weights. I weigh every axle on each trailer (including the RV trailer) I own before loading it.
Dry weights and gvwr matter for my trailers.

[Ralph_Cramden]

ktmrfs wrote:
for trailers built in the last 10 years, the yellow sticker on the trailer lists the weight as it LEFT the factory, so ALL factory installed accy are included.

Not exactly correct. The only mandated number that needs to be accurate is the GVWR on the certification. They can use any number they want for other weights. A few do individually weigh them after the build and apply another sticker somewhere but that's a select few manufacturers.

A few years ago there were hearings being held by NHTSA over the practice of deducting hitch weight from gross, and having actual weight as built very close to GVWR, with low carrying capacity. The RV lobby came out in full force and managed to make that go hush hush and away. Gerber at RV daily report had a huge write up about it at the time.

[bikendan]

well, using the GVWR on my trailer as a guide, is not a good idea.

it is 26'6" long and has a factory yellow sticker weight(with battery) of 5,000lbs.
it has a CCC of over 2,500lbs.! that's half of the trailer's UVW.

NO way will the two of us ever load that much in the trailer.

so not every trailer's GVWR is necessarily a good gauge.

[BenK]

OEM's have gotten a bit better at listing weighs of how they left their factory...in the old days, they used the 'curb' or 'stripper' model in order to be able to list the highest 'tow' weight. Both for the TV and trailer.

They have no other choice other than to list the TV/Trailer weight as it left their factory, as there are many middle vendors to even the owner adding components/systems/etc that all increase the actual weight

Why been and will continue to say load up ready to go camping and then weigh the whole setup, axle by axle. If you have the time, weigh it with and without the WD tensioned

Another thing...decide if you believe in the OEM ratings system or not.

If not, then academic these discussions and do whatever, but know you have potentially taken the OEM(s) off the liability and warranty hook

If yes, then do some homework gathering the OEM's info (specifications, ratings, limits, recommendations, etc), go out and actually weigh the TV & trailer...then do the simple math

If not willing to actually weigh everything, then use the OEM's max ratings as the basis and know that it is still a gamble.

Good luck !

[ependydad]

Old-Biscuit wrote:
Listed/published 'tongue/pin weight' is 'DRY' weight based on the 'Listed/published' DRY trailer weight.
(500# dry tongue for 5000# trailer equals a DRY 10% tongue weight etc)
Dry tongue/pin weight is for a basically empty trailer.....(lot of mfg. fine print will state 'Numbers are an Average' for such & such model


Look at data plate on trailer for the GVWR.
Use the dry tongue/pin weight percentage to figure WET tongue/pin weight based on GVWR

Can your TV handle that WET tongue/pin weight?
If so........good to go
IF 'marginal' might be OK if you do NOT load trailer up

Unsurprisingly, I agree with Old-Biscuit. You can often determine what a wet weight for a trailer will be by taking the dry weights and calculating the percentage.

I built a simple calculator to help with that:
http://towingplanner.com/Estimators/TonguePinWeightFromDry

Unlike others, I don't always say to use the GVWR. It's often quoted on forums (and who knows if it's true that the *average* RV gains 1,500 lbs. of cargo). (Of course, now people will post they only carry 400 lbs. or 4,000 lbs. but hey, what can you do?) Going by GVWR is definitely the most conservative.

[JoeGood988]

It really doesn't matter what the dry weight is...what matters is what does it weigh when loaded with all your stuff...load it up and go to a weigh scale and see what it really is....mountain driving can ruin a good tow trying to go up a grade and back down again. I added 3,000 lbs to my dry weight when loaded