โJan-16-2015 06:25 AM
โJan-20-2015 06:29 PM
2012Coleman wrote:Please do not presume to know what my logic is. It is really simple. Take responsibility for your actions and do not place that responsibility in someone else's hands. Use the fact that you are paying for the commodity to put the Responsibility back on the manufacture. If you do not have the ability to correctly access the good and bad in your purchase then take someone with you that does and listen to them. The RV industry produces what the RV buyers are willing to buy.Gee - isn't that the root of the problem? So if you have an RV then your part of the problem - right? The rest of that quote makes absolutly no sense in the context of the original post.
Everybody on this board wants a quality product to do what they love to do, but the blowback the OP is getting says lay down and take it!
:H
โJan-20-2015 11:41 AM
Please do not presume to know what my logic is. It is really simple. Take responsibility for your actions and do not place that responsibility in someone else's hands. Use the fact that you are paying for the commodity to put the Responsibility back on the manufacture. If you do not have the ability to correctly access the good and bad in your purchase then take someone with you that does and listen to them. The RV industry produces what the RV buyers are willing to buy.Gee - isn't that the root of the problem? So if you have an RV then your part of the problem - right? The rest of that quote makes absolutly no sense in the context of the original post.
โJan-20-2015 09:02 AM
Dog Trainer wrote:4X4Dodger wrote:Newbiecampers wrote:Dog Trainer wrote:
So don't buy the publication. Don't buy the product if the quality does not meet and exceed your expectations. This is how democracy and capitalism works. I do not want any more legislation in my life.
^^^^^^^ This, X100
I picked this post to answer because it represents a few others with the same basic message. My comments should be read as being "In general".
Under your logic no one should try to improve anything or change anything for the better...it is basically the "Love it or Leave it Argument from the 60's.
Most associations like AAA, AARP, NRA etc do more to STOP or change bad legislation (as their members percieve it) than they do actually writing new regulations.
My post is about people (and GSE) changing the industry for the better. Not about government regulation. Any reading otherwise is a misinterpretation.
Please do not presume to know what my logic is. It is really simple. Take responsibility for your actions and do not place that responsibility in someone else's hands. Use the fact that you are paying for the commodity to put the Responsibility back on the manufacture. If you do not have the ability to correctly access the good and bad in your purchase then take someone with you that does and listen to them. The RV industry produces what the RV buyers are willing to buy.
โJan-20-2015 08:45 AM
BurbMan wrote:
It is very tempting to compare the RV industry to the auto industry, but they are apples and oranges. The BIG reason: elasticity of demand.
In the auto market, people need cars to get to work. People buy cars when the economy is good, they buy cars when the economy is bad. The car payment is something you fit into your budget like a mortgage. If you are Motor Trend, you can say bad things about cars, it won't stop anybody from buying a car, they just won't buy that one.
Demand for RVs is highly elastic....when the economy slows down, Craig's list is crowded with "For Sale" listings of boats, RVs, etc. When the economy hit the skids in 2008, several manufacturers went under, including the Fleetwood, the largest mfr of towables, and Sunnybrook, among others. For example, look at this list of "orphaned" brands of Toy haulers that are no longer in production, as posted on the Toy Hauler Forum:
Orphaned Toy Hauler Brands or Manufacturers
Adventure Mfg RPM
Aliner Cabin A SUT
Airstream Basecamp & PanAmerica
American Freedom
Ameri-Camp Summit Ridge
Alpenlite Defender
Alfa Leisure Toyhouse
Bigfoot 3000 Motorhome
Carriage C-Force & Carri-Lite
Coachmen Adrenaline
CrossRoads CrossTerrain, CrossFire & CrossForce
DRV Luxury Suites: Full House
Edge Outcast & Rebel
EnduraMax Gladiator
Extreme RV, now Extreme Warrior
Fleetwood Gear Box, Formula, Nitrous, RedLine & Scorpion
Frontier RV Trax
Glendale Titanium MPR
Gulf Stream Bounty Hunter
Heartland Razor
Holiday Rambler Next Level
Host RV
Hyper Lite Trailers
Kaddy Krusier: KDX
KIT Manufacturing, see Extreme RV
Keystone Tail-Gator
Keystone Hornet Hideout
Kodiak Epandable 314
Komfort Karry All
Jayco Talon, Recon & Seneca Toy Hauler
McKenzie Dune Chaser & Dune Seeker
MVP RV EnVy, Vortex & Impact
Newmar X-Aire
Open Range: Rolling Thunder
Pilgrim Puresport
Pony Xpress
Rage'n
R-Vision Boogie Box & R-Wagon
Spirit RV Predator
Skyline RV's Toy Hauler line
Starcraft Rockstar
Sunline Tran-Sport
Sun Valley Rattler
SunnyBrook Titan & Big Dog
ThorCA Tahoe, Vortex & Wanderer Wagon
Travel Supreme Rally Sport
Travel Supreme Mid Engine Diesel Pusher
Travelaire Genesis GW33T (Canadian)
Weekend Warrior now Extreme Warrior
West Coast Trailer
Nobody HAS to buy an RV, it is a luxury item. Manufacturers survive the economic cycles by investing little in plants and technology and selling what they can sell when they can sell it. There is no room for objective "reporting" on deficiencies of brands, all the mfrs have the same skeletons in their closets. If a guy read a bad review on a Ford in Motor Trend, he'll buy the Chevy. If a guy reads a bad review about how an RV is built, he will quickly find out they are all built that way and buy a boat instead.
The hallmark of the RV business is to sell what you can sell when you can sell it, and be sure you have enough nuts squirreled away to survive the long winter when it comes....nobody knows for sure when that will be, but it will come. We can't afford any negative press when sales are up.
โJan-20-2015 07:38 AM
kohai wrote:Chris Bryant wrote:
I will again give a link to the non-profit RV Consumers Group- a 501(c)3 organization-
http://rv.org
The problem with this site is that it is only for those that pay for it. This protects the manufacturers because their dirty laundry isn't public information. The other problem I have is with their survey. I filled it out, but it never really got into questions that quantify how many manufacturing problems I had on my trailer and what type of problems they were. Too many of their questions were subjective. A lot of people on these forums will give a long laundry list of problems they had with their RV and then say they love their RV (consumer satisfaction would rate high but quality would rate low). Without asking the questions in the right way, it can mask problems.
I have seen review sites/companies that are too general in their reviews or too general in their analysis. For work once there was a large research company (well known) that had done an analysis on a very specific set of specialized products. The white paper report from them was something like $500. I decided we could use the information and I bought it and it turned out to be nothing more than product specifications that the manufacturer freely supplied.
It would be great if rv.org is thorough but without paying it is hard to know and as a newbie it would be hard to know how good rv.org is.
I would be curious to see their review for my brand to see how accurate it is. But, since I already have the trailer I'm not going to pay for it to find out what I have already learned.
Maybe we need a survey on here of how useful people have found rv.org (if they have used it). Anybody have experience?
โJan-20-2015 06:28 AM
Chris Bryant wrote:
I will again give a link to the non-profit RV Consumers Group- a 501(c)3 organization-
http://rv.org
โJan-20-2015 05:17 AM
โJan-20-2015 05:12 AM
2012Coleman wrote:kohai wrote:This is a great idea, and I would be willing to help. But I wonder if the mods would allow links to such surveys.
I am new to the RV world and bought my first 5th wheel this year. I was willing to spend more for quality if I could find a floor plan and size that matched.
The biggest problem is visibility of who makes a quality unit. I spend days searching the internet trying to find who made great quality units. However, I never could find the right combination of quality, floor plan, size, etc. Even when I did narrow down some units, all I could do was find people online complaining about things and you can find people complaining for any brand.
So, how do I know somebody makes a quality unit? Is there any industry standard reporting on failure rates by manufacturer? How do I know that Brand X has a problem with their slides? Or that Brand Y has a problem with their gel coat?
In my past life I helped create surveys for consumers. I'm really tempted to start up a survey of forum members from across the internet to start quantifying the quality problems for each manufacturer.
Then, I could make that information publicly available to every buyer on the internet for free. Buyers will be able to make purchasing decisions based on hard numbers related to quality instead of just reading random info on forums.
Manufacturers would then be exposed in regards to their quality (or lack thereof) and they would also see how they stack up against the competition. I believe this would then cause an uptick in attention to quality. The component manufacturers will also be exposed (lipert, etc).
The challenge is getting enough responses to the surveys to cover so many manufacturers.
As a newbie shopping for a TT, I too was not very successful doing the research as so many suggest on this thread. And of course I could speak with my wallet and just not buy, but who does that hurt? Well who?? Reality check on aisle one!
I also subscribed to the TL mag - note past tense. As stated. i's just a fancy brochure - nothing more. They TT's and fivers they write about never have a thing wrong - maybe the selection of knobs on the drawers are cited as a drawback at most.
The OP is simply frustrated at the lack of some entity that has a non biased opinion an a range of RV's.
I don't think GS is going to help - why would they shoot themselves in the foot?
โJan-20-2015 05:11 AM
โJan-20-2015 04:55 AM
kohai wrote:This is a great idea, and I would be willing to help. But I wonder if the mods would allow links to such surveys.
I am new to the RV world and bought my first 5th wheel this year. I was willing to spend more for quality if I could find a floor plan and size that matched.
The biggest problem is visibility of who makes a quality unit. I spend days searching the internet trying to find who made great quality units. However, I never could find the right combination of quality, floor plan, size, etc. Even when I did narrow down some units, all I could do was find people online complaining about things and you can find people complaining for any brand.
So, how do I know somebody makes a quality unit? Is there any industry standard reporting on failure rates by manufacturer? How do I know that Brand X has a problem with their slides? Or that Brand Y has a problem with their gel coat?
In my past life I helped create surveys for consumers. I'm really tempted to start up a survey of forum members from across the internet to start quantifying the quality problems for each manufacturer.
Then, I could make that information publicly available to every buyer on the internet for free. Buyers will be able to make purchasing decisions based on hard numbers related to quality instead of just reading random info on forums.
Manufacturers would then be exposed in regards to their quality (or lack thereof) and they would also see how they stack up against the competition. I believe this would then cause an uptick in attention to quality. The component manufacturers will also be exposed (lipert, etc).
The challenge is getting enough responses to the surveys to cover so many manufacturers.
โJan-19-2015 11:24 AM
Newbiecampers wrote:
No clout? You/we have one of the biggest pieces of "clout" in existence: Your Wallet. Don't like what is going on? Then close it.
โJan-19-2015 10:02 AM
Dog Trainer wrote:4X4Dodger wrote:Newbiecampers wrote:Dog Trainer wrote:
So don't buy the publication. Don't buy the product if the quality does not meet and exceed your expectations. This is how democracy and capitalism works. I do not want any more legislation in my life.
^^^^^^^ This, X100
I picked this post to answer because it represents a few others with the same basic message. My comments should be read as being "In general".
Under your logic no one should try to improve anything or change anything for the better...it is basically the "Love it or Leave it Argument from the 60's.
Most associations like AAA, AARP, NRA etc do more to STOP or change bad legislation (as their members percieve it) than they do actually writing new regulations.
My post is about people (and GSE) changing the industry for the better. Not about government regulation. Any reading otherwise is a misinterpretation.
Please do not presume to know what my logic is. It is really simple. Take responsibility for your actions and do not place that responsibility in someone else's hands. Use the fact that you are paying for the commodity to put the Responsibility back on the manufacture. If you do not have the ability to correctly access the good and bad in your purchase then take someone with you that does and listen to them. The RV industry produces what the RV buyers are willing to buy.
โJan-19-2015 05:25 AM
Dog Trainer wrote:4X4Dodger wrote:Newbiecampers wrote:Dog Trainer wrote:
So don't buy the publication. Don't buy the product if the quality does not meet and exceed your expectations. This is how democracy and capitalism works. I do not want any more legislation in my life.
^^^^^^^ This, X100
I picked this post to answer because it represents a few others with the same basic message. My comments should be read as being "In general".
Under your logic no one should try to improve anything or change anything for the better...it is basically the "Love it or Leave it Argument from the 60's.
Most associations like AAA, AARP, NRA etc do more to STOP or change bad legislation (as their members percieve it) than they do actually writing new regulations.
My post is about people (and GSE) changing the industry for the better. Not about government regulation. Any reading otherwise is a misinterpretation.
Please do not presume to know what my logic is. It is really simple. Take responsibility for your actions and do not place that responsibility in someone else's hands. Use the fact that you are paying for the commodity to put the Responsibility back on the manufacture. If you do not have the ability to correctly access the good and bad in your purchase then take someone with you that does and listen to them. The RV industry produces what the RV buyers are willing to buy.
โJan-19-2015 04:43 AM
4X4Dodger wrote:Newbiecampers wrote:Dog Trainer wrote:
So don't buy the publication. Don't buy the product if the quality does not meet and exceed your expectations. This is how democracy and capitalism works. I do not want any more legislation in my life.
^^^^^^^ This, X100
I picked this post to answer because it represents a few others with the same basic message. My comments should be read as being "In general".
Under your logic no one should try to improve anything or change anything for the better...it is basically the "Love it or Leave it Argument from the 60's.
Most associations like AAA, AARP, NRA etc do more to STOP or change bad legislation (as their members percieve it) than they do actually writing new regulations.
My post is about people (and GSE) changing the industry for the better. Not about government regulation. Any reading otherwise is a misinterpretation.
โJan-18-2015 07:01 PM